Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?

[Vasco DG]

So far Mark hasn't had a Norge to log develop a map for. That means that what you are riding on is based on comparative speculation and feedback.

As soon as I can convince someone local to allow me to keep a Norge 8V for a couple of weeks that are convenient for Mark, (Remember, he has a real job too!) I can set up the tune, take it to Wagga and he can really crunch the numbers.

I'm hoping soon to be au-fait with the logging process myself and have the tooling. Once I'm up to speed it will make it a lot easier as I'll be able to do a lot of the 'Donkey Work'. Once again though I also have a job, (Two if you consider the Midget Porn Empire a job?) so this stuff all has to 'Fit in' as it were. My guess is that this midrange 'roughness' will be addressable but it needs concrete data and first hand examination to get things spot on. There are no 'Magic Wands' here. It's all done the hard way without fairy dust or magic boxes.

Pete

[nikwax]

So far Mark hasn't had a Norge to log develop a map for. That means that what you are riding on is based on comparative speculation and feedback.

As soon as I can convince someone local to allow me to keep a Norge 8V for a couple of weeks that are convenient for Mark, (Remember, he has a real job too!) I can set up the tune, take it to Wagga and he can really crunch the numbers.

I'm hoping soon to be au-fait with the logging process myself and have the tooling. Once I'm up to speed it will make it a lot easier as I'll be able to do a lot of the 'Donkey Work'. Once again though I also have a job, (Two if you consider the Midget Porn Empire a job?) so this stuff all has to 'Fit in' as it were. My guess is that this midrange 'roughness' will be addressable but it needs concrete data and first hand examination to get things spot on. There are no 'Magic Wands' here. It's all done the hard way without fairy dust or magic boxes.

Pete

wow, you've gotten all this done without a test bike? That is astonishing!

Thanks again for the work!

[Vasco DG]

Not to log build a map. There are certain things we have learnt and *Know* about the 8V engine that mean Mark can take a pretty good stab at a map. We have had test bikes but not so far one Mark can log build a map on.

Pete

[frans belgium]

Not to log build a map. There are certain things we have learnt and *Know* about the 8V engine that mean Mark can take a pretty good stab at a map. We have had test bikes but not so far one Mark can log build a map on.

Pete

I invite Mark over to Belgium.  You won't believe the number of award winning beers we have.  In the meantime, he can ride and test and batter my Norge.  By the time all of the beers have been tasted, the Norge is set up to perfection.  Or not, but we wouldn't care, would we?

[beetle]

I like beer!    ;D

[bib]

Hi ... now been over a month with new map ... now that I am 'used to' the new operation of the bike my thoughts are:
Great enjoyment in engine below 4000 rpm
Not quite as smooth from 3000 to 5000 rpm as original (TBS set at 4000 with Morgan Carbtune)
Much improved fuel consumption.
Between 3000 and 4500 rpm:
The original map gave the engine an 'elastic' feel that was very relaxed.
The new map gives the engine an 'urgent' feel more like a big bore non balance shaft inline 4(think Waltr said this before)
the trade-off is worthwhile ... far better throttle response with new map.

None of the CO2 changes made any difference to this 'feel' with new map.
The TBS fine tune at 4000 has not altered this 'feel' with new map.

Just before Xmas I checked TBS again- made sure 'both' air bleeds were snug then redid TBS at 4000rpm - reset TPS (4.6 I think)
After this the smoothness was little improved - throttle response 'feel' better (my imagination? -no matter, feelings of joy!)
I did find the throttle cables required loosening as idle was hanging at 1800 or so - once cables were loose idle was fine.
Fuel cons has gone up a little ... (guilty smile) frustrated cagers with bike in crosshairs find themselves sitting in exhaust fumes....
(better for them than that ciggie maybe??)
Observations:
Original map 0 to 3000 rpm was a little smoother BUT had slow throttle response, less eagerness to rev than Marks map. Also engine stalled easily at idle with a little load.
New map: 0 to 3000rpm - eager to rev, takes load in stride, does not stall easily at idle. Smoothness similar to original but with more 'Thump' Hah! Now THAT's why I bought a Guzzi!

original map 3000 to 5000 revs engine pulled well (expect more for 1200cc by this stage) -smoothness increases with rising torque so that by 4000 there was strong pull - elastic in feel in that as revs got past 3000 so did eagerness to rev increase.
New map 3000 to 5000 strong thumping pull, smoothness slowly decreased with revs so that by 4000 a 'tingle' in bars is evident along with light 'rumbling vibration' in chassis - not unpleasant at all.

original map 5000 to 8000rpm - VERY smooth and quick to rev ... like power is ramping up with each 100rpm
new map 5000 to 8000rpm not quite as eager to rev as original - not quite as smooth, more rumble evident, power builds with revs but 'FEEL' is different
------example: with original map you have to twist throttle (many millimeters) below 5000 to get bike really moving BUT once close to 5000 a little movement of throttle gives a lot of urge,
------more throttle sensitive 5000rpm up.
=====New map throttle sensitive right from idle to 4500 or so then sensitivity drops off and you have to twist throttle .. almost like its a reverse of original?
MUCH PREFER NEW MAP - 90% of my riding is below 5000rpm.
Norge is a beast of beauty to ride AND look at!

Thanks MG -thanks forum members - my riding enjoyment is increasing with each day.
Been riding near on 40 years - NOW I get the bike I always needed while I enjoyed all my past bike except for 1 - my fault for choosing someone else's restoration project.
Next bike will be a MG.

[Aussienorge]

Hi Guys
I, am new to the forum and have been reading about the new map for the norge 2V 2007 is this map still available as I have just purchased the bike and would to give it a go

Thanks in advance

[molly]

I have a map for the 1200 2V motor PM me if you are interested.
You will need Guzzidag and some cables to load it.

[beetle]

I've got a map too. What Molly said.

[gelos]

Hi guys, I am also also interested about maps for Guzzi 2V Norge 1200.
I sending PM to Beetle.

Gretting rom Czech
Gelos

[canuguzzi]

Just before Xmas I checked TBS again- made sure 'both' air bleeds were snug then redid TBS at 4000rpm - reset TPS (4.6 I think)
After this the smoothness was little improved - throttle response 'feel' better (my imagination? -no matter, feelings of joy!)
I did find the throttle cables required loosening as idle was hanging at 1800 or so - once cables were loose idle was fine.
Fuel cons has gone up a little ... (guilty smile) frustrated cagers with bike in crosshairs find themselves sitting in exhaust fumes....
(better for them than that ciggie maybe??)
Observations:
Original map 0 to 3000 rpm was a little smoother BUT had slow throttle response, less eagerness to rev than Marks map. Also engine stalled easily at idle with a little load.
New map: 0 to 3000rpm - eager to rev, takes load in stride, does not stall easily at idle. Smoothness similar to original but with more 'Thump' Hah! Now THAT's why I bought a Guzzi!

original map 3000 to 5000 revs engine pulled well (expect more for 1200cc by this stage) -smoothness increases with rising torque so that by 4000 there was strong pull - elastic in feel in that as revs got past 3000 so did eagerness to rev increase.
New map 3000 to 5000 strong thumping pull, smoothness slowly decreased with revs so that by 4000 a 'tingle' in bars is evident along with light 'rumbling vibration' in chassis - not unpleasant at all.

original map 5000 to 8000rpm - VERY smooth and quick to rev ... like power is ramping up with each 100rpm
new map 5000 to 8000rpm not quite as eager to rev as original - not quite as smooth, more rumble evident, power builds with revs but 'FEEL' is different
------example: with original map you have to twist throttle (many millimeters) below 5000 to get bike really moving BUT once close to 5000 a little movement of throttle gives a lot of urge,
------more throttle sensitive 5000rpm up.
=====New map throttle sensitive right from idle to 4500 or so then sensitivity drops off and you have to twist throttle .. almost like its a reverse of original?
MUCH PREFER NEW MAP - 90% of my riding is below 5000rpm.
Norge is a beast of beauty to ride AND look at!

Thanks MG -thanks forum members - my riding enjoyment is increasing with each day.
Been riding near on 40 years - NOW I get the bike I always needed while I enjoyed all my past bike except for 1 - my fault for choosing someone else's restoration project.
Next bike will be a MG.

I experienced some of what you reported and went back to the original map for a couple thousand miles. Then I reloaded the new map and all those gremlins vanished. It could be that I did something wrong but I chalk it up to the Norge running in.

My Norge is now as smooth with the new map as the original and it is a jewel to run it between 4 and 5 and even above without nary a vibe being intrusive.

[GuzziPilot]

I'm in!

 Finally broke out my cables, read GuzziDiag tutorial umpteen times, hooked everything up and a few tries into it......copied my original map to the netbook.  Mind you, I've very little time on this bike (less than 10 miles)...but I do know it pops on over run, starts and idles nicely.....and that's about all I know so far.

Soons the world is a little less white and roads clear....I'll chalk up up some rides and impressions 👌

But I'd like to have another map or two ready to go.....

Thanks all!!!

Lee

[GuzziPilot]

Winter is finally gone in this (still chilly) north land, but...J finally removed the front wheel chock, the trickle charger, and eased the Norge off the center stand a few weeks back!!

Up to a paltry 150-200 more miles on the odo, and keeping in mind this is a new bike to me with about 3400 miles from the previous owner.  All stock, no mods.  Have noted a definite flat spot 3,500-4,000 rpm.  At lower (parking lot) speeds it feels more like stumble, at higher speeds/gears feels flat, like it's being held back.  I have popping on over run, but nothing terrible.....in fact, I like that.

Recertifying for my MSF safety card (returning riders) in two weeks and would be much happier without that stumbling/flat spot.  Always on the verge of grabbing clutch in case she actually falters or completely misses.  Not interested in doing a face plant with an instructor watching😅

So Beetle, Vasco what might you have for mapping a 100% stock, 2012 8V Norge parked at 600' elevation.....oh it is not Red, so you'll want factor that in too :bow

And yes, Ive spoken to the bike with GuzziDiag, and copied/downloaded my MAP....unsure if it is "as built" or dealer updated.  Can provide if needed.

Thanks!!!

Lee

[Vasco DG]

Flick me your email and I'll send you a map to try.

Pete

[canuguzzi]

GuzziPilot, you might want to make another copy of that original map and put it on something else like a CD or thumb drive in case your netbook takes a dump and you need the original.

Netbooks can fail just like laptops with spinning drives. It never happens until you need it.

[GuzziPilot]

GuzziPilot, you might want to make another copy of that original map and put it on something else like a CD or thumb drive in case your netbook takes a dump and you need the original.

Netbooks can fail just like laptops with spinning drives. It never happens until you need it.

Good call!  And, even though I know better, haven't gotten to it .....quite yet.  I'll make it top priority this morning.   ;-T

Thanks for the nudge 👍👍

[ItsForrest]

Since moving from the NW to the SE my riding patterns have changed and I am noticing different things about the way my Norge runs. I'm wondering if remapping may change a couple things for the better.

It is hotter and more humid here. In addition, the highways are less congested and move much faster.
The things I notice are a bit of surging at steady throttle cruising around 70 or 80mph. Also, I now see what people mean when they comment on the heat off of these mills.

I am guessing the surging on steady throttle will be addressed, how about the heat? Ha anyone noted a decrease in heat off the engine from a remap?

[Vasco DG]

Most 'Surging' problems are the result of incorrect tuning. I fear that there is this belief that remapping is a panacea for all ills. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the bike isn't serviced and tuned properly with the beat developed map in the world it will still run like a hairy wombat with a burning branch up its date!

[canuguzzi]

Most 'Surging' problems are the result of incorrect tuning. I fear that there is this belief that remapping is a panacea for all ills. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the bike isn't serviced and tuned properly with the beat developed map in the world it will still run like a hairy wombat with a burning branch up its date!

 :1:

[ItsForrest]

Most 'Surging' problems are the result of incorrect tuning. I fear that there is this belief that remapping is a panacea for all ills. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the bike isn't serviced and tuned properly with the beat developed map in the world it will still run like a hairy wombat with a burning branch up its date!

This is not my first bike by any stretch, nor is it my first Guzzi. I have been riding and wrenching on everything I own, ride and/or drive for about 35 years. I have only had a couple of injected bikes, however. This surging is the exact symptom that was most recently exhibited by my carbureted Scrambler when the needles needed a shim. Logic would seem to lead me to thinking that the same symptom may be an issue with the modern equivalent of the carburetor, the fuel injection system which, coincidentally, is tuned by uploading different maps.

Perhaps I simply need to rephrase the question.
Has anyone with a properly tuned and maintained Norge experience surging at steady state freeway cruising speeds? If so, was this symptom aleviated with a remap?

The bike has less than 10k miles on it and it has had all the recommended services.
By moving across the country, I am riding in a different climate, in very different traffic and on different roads. Perhaps it is because of the different riding patterns that I have not noticed this symptom before. Is this an unreasonable assumption?
I have so far not bothered to pursue a remap because, aside from the bike likely not being fully run in, I have never experienced the poor performance or glitches that so many others have that have apparently been cured by the miracle of the remap. Perhaps this is one of those symptoms, eh?

[Vasco DG]

When did you last balance the throttle bodies? How did you recalibrate the TPS after the procedure?

I wasn't aware I'd suggested you don't look after your shit. I was simply suggesting that if your bike is exhibiting a symptom that it previously didn't exhibit then a remap is highly unlikely to offer a miracle cure. I didn't think in fact I'd said anything disparaging about you, who I don't know from a bar of soap, so how's about not being such a bloody drama queen.

Pete

[beetle]

How many miles have you done since relocating?

[Vasco DG]

Yeah, I was thinking dump the trims and see what happens as it re-trims.

Look, I know I can come across as a bit blunt. It's not my intention but you have to understand it from my point of view. I've been working on bikes that use the W5AM controller for nearly a decade. Mark has been developing maps for them for several years now. Do we 'Know it all'? No of course not, a fine example of that is my very recent discovery that the roller cam bikes breathe significantly differently to the flat tappet bikes. I didn't know that and the obvious pointers indicated the roller cam mimicked the flat cam very closely. How wrong can you be?

The thing is though that I DO have a lot of experience now with these bikes and what works, what doesn't and what causes problems. In 99 instances out of 100 if there is a significant problem or change of behaviour of a machine it will either be because it's broken or because it isn't tuned correctly. If someone just says "My bike has started running like crap. I want a map to make it better." The chances are that there is an underlying problem. This isn't to say that if the person who owns the bike is doing the servicing they are wrong or an idiot, it's simply that they may not know the correct tuning procedures or recognise the symptoms of a problem because their total experience of a W5AM controlled bike is limited to a sample of one, their own!

Now a LOT of time and not inconsiderable expense goes into the development of a decent, log built, map. If it is uploaded into a bike that isn't tuned correctly or has some bunch of weird-harold aftermarket shite fitted to it IT WON'T WORK VERY WELL! The next thing you know the uploader is pissing and moaning that the map builder or advisor has buggered their bike. On numerous occasions both Mark and I have sent maps out to people who have said "My bike is stock". We can spend hours scratching our heads and offering advice and then slowly they will start telling the real story that their bike has some crappy rock-strainer air filter and a flatulo-matic triple layer orgone accumulator linked to a voodoo fetish under the seat! Either that or some basic step in the tuning or mapping process has been overlooked!

Given these facts and our experience is it so totally unreasonable that I suggest that if the bike has started misbehaving we be given some pretty detailed explanation as to what an owner has done and what they think tuning their bike involves?

I never suggested that Mr. Forrest was an idiot. All I did was say that unless the bike is correctly serviced and tuned it will run like a bag of shit regardless of what map it has in it. Given prior experience it would seem not unreasonable to expect the person requesting a map explain a bit more thoroughlywhatthey do when they service and tune their bike. It could simply be that something has been overlooked or done wrong.

Pete

[ItsForrest]

My sweetie looked over my shoulder at this and told me I was an ass. She's right.

[ItsForrest]

Beetle, I have put about 400 miles on it since moving.
The bike was stored for a few months before I was able to get it trucked over. Note that I previously ran premium gas with Start-Tron treatment to (theoretically at least) neutralize the corn squeezings in the gas. The gas I've bought here is ethanol free premium so far.

Pete, that's the kind of hints I was hoping for.
I have experienced much of what you're talking about working as a service writer in a scooter shop.
I have made no mods to the drive train except removing the carbon cannister to make room for a better tool kit. Aside from checking the balance and TPS, I will double-check the cap on the intake where I removed the hose from the carbon can. An air leak there might cause issues.

[Vasco DG]

An air leak may well cause problems. Do you have the tooling to calibrate the TPS? What procedure do you follow when balancing the throttle bodies? Do you service the bike yourself? If not does the shop you used have a good reputation? Have you checked the valve clearances? What are they set to? Are both the air bleeds open?

Pete

[beetle]

I'd still reset the trims.

[canuguzzi]

From what I remember and I could be mistaken, reports of surging always went away after a good tune. Those with a good tune didn't have surging. The map just made the engine run smoother with a crisper throttle response and if you have a tune that isn't right, whatever slight issues were present remain and might even be more apparent.

I am surely not the one to say past offering an opinion but anytime a bike of mine didn't run right, if it had any modification done at all, no matter how slight, I put the thing back to completely stock and then did all I could to get it as good as possible. Then I was reasonably confident that step by step, as any changes were made I wasn't trying to correct something with the mask of some mod.

Too bad there is no quantifier for surging because there have been reports of surging, micro-surging and all that and then bumpy roads causing some erratic RPM changes because the engine response wasn't as muted as with the stock map.

Just some observations.

[Vasco DG]

Pete, that's the kind of hints I was hoping for.
I have experienced much of what you're talking about working as a service writer in a scooter shop.
I have made no mods to the drive train except removing the carbon cannister to make room for a better tool kit. Aside from checking the balance and TPS, I will double-check the cap on the intake where I removed the hose from the carbon can. An air leak there might cause issues.

First up, as Mark see, re-set the trims. You can do this by pulling the main 30A fuse or disconnecting the battery for a few seconds.

Secondly. Are you familiar with the procedure for balancing the throttle bodies on a W5AM bike? If not do a search here, it's been posted up a zillion times but if you can't find it I'll run through it again, it's very simple BUT you do need some sort of tooling, Guzzidiag being the obvious choice, to re-set the TPS after the balancing is carried out as the TPS value is interpretive rather than being an actual physical adjustment.

Your sweetie sounds like she has her head screwed on right. Stop being paranoid. We want to help.

Pete

[guzzied]

So, I just purchased a 2014 Norge last week and while it does have a super smooth power band from about 3500 rpm on, I do feel the huge slap in the back at lower speeds (da tight stuff, meaning tight roads). So very hard to be smooth with the throttle on this bike. I also feel the higher rpm after riding at California freeway speeds, come to the stop and the idle speed is at 2000 rpm plus. it does come down very slowly. I did a ride this weekend with the wife, and I knew she would say something about the harsh on off throttle in the super tight turns  , just can't be smooth.  Not like my older fuel injected Guzzi's .  The other thing I feel is at low throttle openings is the bike seems to go rich than lean, like it is searching for where the fueling wants to be, yes, it could be what people call surging.  No issues once the throttle is opened up more. I just ordered the Guzzidiag cables, so hopefully Mark or Pete can help me though this. The bike just has 550 miles on it, but I will be doing the first service myself.  General Motor's tech since 1978.

Thanks,
            Mike