Le Mans III carburetors PHF36B, from what model they are?

[jacksonracingcomau]

It may never be known,-  but this is getting interesting as to approaching the OPs question I think.

 Jackson,- you do mean that all of the LMIII`s carbs were B types, and not that all of the early (I+!!+!!!) LeMans carbs were,- right ? If so, you are also saying that not all of the LMIIIs came with lean burn carbs ?

I have some Dellorto manuals, but reading them only adds to the confusion,- Manual nr. 19 even states the LMIII `82 came with PHM40 Ds !!

As I`m sure most of you already have figured out, I don`t come here in any "expert capacity",- and I`m happy to be corrected and learn something new in addition to all the other useful and interesting things I`ve learned here.
But I must admit, conceding that not all of the PHF 36 B type carbs came shrouded from the factory, is some sort of a camel to swallow.
And it immediately opens up the next question : what does the B stand for then ? What makes it differ from the D type ?
And is it likely that a significant mod as the shroud would not earn some kind of marking on the carb?  Hmm,-


So I`m thinking that these obviously "unshrouded values" shown for the LMIII may indicate that there were a few early LMIIIs that came with non lean burn carbs ? And that slepnys carbs are, or very well could be, the original ones?


Also, it`s not ver likely that people swop their 36 carbs for another pair of 36s ? Nor that they would change the shrouds ?

Firstly, I am not the font of all knowledge, I only post here to kerb misinformation when I see it

Point 1 Every book or std 850 Le Mans 1,2 or 3 with 36mm Dell Ortos I've seen has PHF36B, if you have book or std bike with PHF36D, I'm amazed but is possible.
Point 2 PHMD 40mm Dellortos were optional from  76  to homologate for production racing, similar to SBK today, manufacturer has to make parts available
Close box falls in same kit, seems unlikely to fit this without carbs and manifolds

What I really don't know is the different market jetting, Rod's 2 bikes suggest Euro did get shrouded but perhaps not all of Europe, books posted & Rumbas comments suggest differences not printing errors IMHO
I can't even remember if UK 3's were all shrouded, at that time I was ripping 36's off and fitting 40's with 90mm bore kits etc
Or if they were all vented with plastic tubes

Interesting the printed specifications for the Italian motor. Different to the English language user manual.

I purchased a LM III new at the factory in 83. It still runs its standard jetting.

I think I've just worked out the contradiction, in early 80's we were selling Italian delivery LM 3's in Australia (via PS and Agostini's)
These bikes were Australian complianced and therefore had Aus spec jetting / shrouds. That's why yours is shrouded
My educated guess
Aus and US complianced 3's had shrouds and vent lines, home market and others not (Rumbas German importer verifies this)
The proof of this would be the brass spigots for vent lines, still guessing but 99% betworthy that if they had vents they were shrouded too


So OP carbs are orig IMHO, why close box fitted without tuning engine to match is a bigger mystery to me


Lastly, difference PHFB to PHFD ?
study drawings
http://guzzisti.de/img/upload/service/Dellorto-Katalog%201977%20(Italienisch).2.pdf
1.33.2.427 is PHF 36B--   Guzzi 850 Le Mans 75-, 850LM3 81-
1.33.4.620 is PHF 36D-- not clear OE application, as said not in my memory or books
Neither show shroud or brass spigots, swallow that camel !

1.34.4.458 is PHM 40D 850 Le Mans K 76- and 850 LM 3 82- (only ever optional AFAIK, K could stand for that ?)

Perhaps your D comes from PHMD ? These were the PR 40mm carbs, very different animal

But OP, just tune and ride, start with what you have, read plugs, how it runs much more important than history of bits

Cheers
MH

[Vasco DG]

Valid points. All I know is that EVERY MkIII I have ever dealt with that hadn't been buggerised about with had the carbs with shrouds in. Over the last 15 years or so there has been a steady trickle of imports from Europe to Australia including a fair few MkIII's and of all the ones I've seen, (Can't give a precise figure but its been a few.) which have come from a a variety of countries including Germany, Italy and the Netherlands have all had the shrouded carbs. Whether their designation was BS or something else I can't remember.

As Martin says though what carbs you have doesn't really matter a jot as long as they are set up right. I personally have a pair of shrouded 36's that I'll be putting on my SP if I ever get it back on the road. I'm sure I will eventually of I live long enough but is simply don't have the time at the moment.

Pete

[Morizzi]

Now here is a sentence I thought I'd never put together: I agree with both Martin and Pete!  :BEER:

I have worked on a number of LM 3s besides mine and they have always had the shroud. I won't say ALL but I think I'm pretty confident to say Nearly All!  :D

To add some more grey areas I know a number of the Laverda guys press the shrouds out. They are trying to emulate the almost impossible to fine PHB carbs that are like the PHF but without the pumper in the body. Some racing classes need that removed too. I don't try and understand Classic Racing rules and politics. I think that would be a fool's errand.  :BEER:

After reading Martin's post just above I had a closer look at the carbs on my 2 LM 3s. The 81 has the brass vents coming straight up out of the body. The 83 has small 90 degree elbows coming out the side then bending upwards. They look and feel alloy but they may be very hard plastic. I don't want to do the destruction test. I want to be very clear that they both have the shroud. The cable support arm is the same on both too. My understanding on the PHF B is that the B means flexible mount like the rubber manifolds. A refers to the clamp on type like VHB's on an old roundy. D? I haven't a clue unless it follows the A or B which means it is a RH carb.

I again agree with both that you can just jet the ones you have to suit. I often read a lot of rubbish that you can no longer read plugs but you can. There is still a lot of story there to uncover the mystery. Personally I prefer the lean burn type because I'm used to them. I can judge the numbers and what it will do. I understand that jetting will be bigger on a non lean burn carb and I can sort them but it takes me a bit more trial and error for the final few %.

Enjoy the Italian factor of model specifications.  :BEER:

[jacksonracingcomau]

Some good home truths in this tale

(Sigh.)
A common mistake made by people who think they are cleverer than they are is to suggest that because they have never seen something it doesn't exist.
Pete

EG ?

All I know is that EVERY MkIII I have ever dealt with that hadn't been buggerised about with had the carbs with shrouds in.
Pete

This is gold

I can't help but chuckle a bit whenever certain words are used in discussing them - words my wife and I try not to use between us if at all possible; always, never, every, none or their synonyms.

And cheers Rod, we're all happy now, hope OP got info and entertainment, ignoring the conflicting, obviously.

Now here is a sentence I thought I'd never put together: I agree with both Martin and Pete!  :BEER:

[kidneb]

The 83 has small 90 degree elbows coming out the side then bending upwards. They look and feel alloy but they may be very hard plastic. I don't want to do the destruction test. I want to be very clear that they both have the shroud.

You can buy them by the dozen at Dellorto.uk, and they`re not plastic.  http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandise/products_details.asp?PartNo=9008&CategoryID=2&PartsectionID=21

My understanding on the PHF B is that the B means flexible mount like the rubber manifolds. A refers to the clamp on type like VHB's on an old roundy. D? I haven't a clue unless it follows the A or B which means it is a RH carb.

Just to document my assertion earlier in this thread about PHF36 Bs and PHF36 Ds sharing the same body casting :

http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Shnew=1&Model=7&ModelName=Le%20Mans%201,%20Le%20Mans%202,%20Le%20Mans%203,%20Le%20Mans%201000,%201000S&Cat=FUA&CatName=Fuel%20and%20Carburettors&Sort=TitleDesc&spPage=2#topbar



I guess (but not sure) that the "1" suffix on these D carbs stands for the newer type with the revised slides (redesigned idle adjuster ramp) and bigger float bowl plugs.

[slepsnys]

So, I think I will leave these carburetors on LMIII and will try to tune them :) I want little more opinion and confirmation about setup which is written in Italian manual (photo I have uploaded), lean burn type or not, I am thinking to make this setup for my carburetors, which are without shrouds? :)

[Vasco DG]

With your carbs the only thing I'd change, providing the rest of the bike is stock, would be the needle. I'd think as a starter a K5 would be a better choice. If your bike came with a ZD box though it might also have a 'K' cam in it and that might make a difference.

Pete

[kidneb]

slepnys

Your carbs are obviously non shrouded 36mm PHFs.
The bike has, low milage or not, a running history. The jetting your carbs have now resemble the jetting of the LM II in this chart, so why not start with that ?


http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/dk_da_technical_carburetor.htm

[slepsnys]

Pete,

Please tell me more about 'K' cam, what it is? Thank You  :)

[Vasco DG]

The factory's 'Production Race' cam the B10. It has a 'K' stamped on the rear end.

Pete

[kidneb]

Hey slepsnys
Why can't we see a picture of your newly acquired wonder ? Is it a white one ?
I have a white one myself,-used import from Italy. It also came with the ZD gearbox, but the cam was the stock one. Not the K stamped B10 which came standard on the LMIV,- but was provided in the "race kit" for the LMI-II-III.

[jacksonracingcomau]

You can buy them by the dozen at Dellorto.uk, and they`re not plastic.  http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandise/products_details.asp?PartNo=9008&CategoryID=2&PartsectionID=21

Just to document my assertion earlier in this thread about PHF36 Bs and PHF36 Ds sharing the same body casting :

http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Shnew=1&Model=7&ModelName=Le%20Mans%201,%20Le%20Mans%202,%20Le%20Mans%203,%20Le%20Mans%201000,%201000S&Cat=FUA&CatName=Fuel%20and%20Carburettors&Sort=TitleDesc&spPage=2#topbar



I guess (but not sure) that the "1" suffix on these D carbs stands for the newer type with the revised slides (redesigned idle adjuster ramp) and bigger float bowl plugs.

Now I see where you get the D from, these are offered as replacement and are not identical to LM  and LM 2 which also used B type (without shrouds).
Difference between B and D is not shrouds
These D also have spigot for vent as do red dot and green dot mk 3 Le Mans B type (shrouded)

Note Op's B type without shrouds will not take these vent lines without chopping off the "ledge"

These are same B type I have here and were on all LM and LM2 AFAIK

[jacksonracingcomau]

And is it likely that a significant mod as the shroud would not earn some kind of marking on the carb?  Hmm,-

    

I let that one go for a couple of days, see if anyone bothered to translate German
red dot and green dot IS marking on carb, dab of paint
There were at least 3 jetting specs for Mk 3 Le Mans, no misprint.
Guzziology listing only 2 has been read as absolute, forgive him, minor typo

[slepsnys]

kidneb,
No, it is red one, I don't have photos and now to take them wouldn't be very pretty it has a lot off parts missing, my bad :) I think mine originally also came form Italy, because in German documents it is written that it was imported from Italy to Germany. I will take photos when it will be all in one piece:)

jacksonracingcomau,
So You think that Italian manual can be true, no errors and some LMIII where jetted like it is written in this manual? :)

[jacksonracingcomau]

jacksonracingcomau,
So You think that Italian manual can be true, no errors and some LMIII where jetted like it is written in this manual? :)

True is not the word I'd use, but definitely possible, in  the English manuals there are no end of funny translations and weird typos but I don't know about Italian ones. Equally possible they also had different sets of jets in home market, that picture shows breather vents that are not on your carbs, so not identical to yours anyway. German book and jetting shows 3 different sets.

However it was then, same rules apply still, jets should be what it needs , if it starts and runs well with what you have and plugs read well, there is no problem but pretty cheap to try other sizes.
Fuel is of course, the key to jetting, these bikes all predate unleaded fuel in Europe (but not US) and certainly E10, so jet to fuel you use
If it were me, I'd do it 1 step at a time, quantify the change, definitely main jet first, no point in running 140 if it prefers 132.

[kidneb]

 

    If your mind is set up to live in a chaotic world where certainty is a rare and dubious guest,- this thread is very interesting and informative for us Tonti 850 LM owners.

 Just to add to the overwhelming variety of carb specs for the LMIII shown here already, I just found this chart covering all the Tonti and later carbed Guzzis ;

http://www.thepembleton.org.uk/techpages/dellorto/dellorto_specifications.pdf

Interesting how the specs on slides (50/3 versus 60/3) differ in the LMIII specs shown in this thread, and also that the USA LMIII came with PHF36 DD + DS according to this chart, and that they look like lean burn jettings.
So there may even be a shrouded PHF36 D ? 
Confusion complete !  ;D




 

[cruzziguzzi]

Equally possible they also had different sets of jets in home market, that picture shows breather vents that are not on your carbs, so not identical to yours anyway. German book and jetting shows 3 different sets.

While not directly equating to the quote, the quote did remind me of my Spot in the shipping crate. It came with, of course, complete and "running" carbs but had another and completely different set of jets taped to the right hand grip.

Were a fella to have bought one Spot and retained the factory installed jets he'd be correct in stating they were the "right" ones - meanwhile - I feel completely correct in stating that mine, removed from the grip and installed in their rightful home are in fact the correct (proper) ones.


Both right... I'm just more right. ;)

[kidneb]

Both right... I'm just more right. ;)

Spot on  ;)

[jacksonracingcomau]

 

    If your mind is set up to live in a chaotic world where certainty is a rare and dubious guest,- this thread is very interesting and informative for us Tonti 850 LM owners.

 Just to add to the overwhelming variety of carb specs for the LMIII shown here already, I just found this chart covering all the Tonti and later carbed Guzzis ;

http://www.thepembleton.org.uk/techpages/dellorto/dellorto_specifications.pdf

Interesting how the specs on slides (50/3 versus 60/3) differ in the LMIII specs shown in this thread, and also that the USA LMIII came with PHF36 DD + DS according to this chart, and that they look like lean burn jettings.
So there may even be a shrouded PHF36 D ? 
Confusion complete !  ;D


 

even more complete when you compare that to English version (I have had this in hard copy since 80's)
Almost nothing same, my one has US version as BS and BD

Only proves..........not hing,  but maybe these mystery DD and DS's are somewhere,look in book I posted before
http://guzzisti.de/img/upload/service/Dellorto-Katalog%201977%20(Italienisch).2.pdf

1.33.4.620 is PHF 36D-- not clear OE application, doesn't cross reference and don't have vent tubes
but does have bell cranks inferring they were on some Le Mans somewhere along with any of jetting specs mentioned.

Let confusion reign, jet at will , guess modern is same, no end of different maps, both factory and aftermarket, in 30 years time to try and work out what a particular bike "should" have had may be impossible, updates, recalls and fiddles just memories

[Morizzi]

Sit Spot , stay , good boy  ;D
Dusty

Yep, I'm picking up a bit of angst and competitiveness now too. There appears to be some sort of quest to find the Holy PHF D's and I found them first!  ::)

Many of you don't know Martin but he has been working on Guzzis since before I could comb my penis.  :D I'd like to thank him as he has presented a few pieces of material that I wasn't aware of. Thanks to Kidneb for pointing out the D's. Funnily I now realise that I have worked on them before.

Ok, now to the PHF D's. I had a look at the bikes I have stored here and low and behold there is an 89 Cali 3 with PHF 30D's. There is absolutely no tuning, I say again tuning, difference to the B's. The jetting would be identical if the shroud system in identical. The 30D's on the Cali have the standard brass ring around the needle aperture and the jetting is consistent with that, 475cc bore cylinder capacity and 30mm chokes. This is why I never noticed the D except for the (D)amn big nut holding on the float bowl.

Why? I can only guess they wanted a bigger reservoir of fuel around the main jet. Not sure why as I've never had an issue with the B's. Maybe being the lowest point in the bowl it allowed more crap to form before affecting things but there is one real advantage that I can see. The Bs had a 14mm AF nut for the bowl. The Ds have a 21mm AF nut. The standard 22mm ring that comes with the standard tool kit for all the oil fillers also fits the D drain.  ;-T I can't think of one other 14mm AF nut or bolt on a LM III.

I have a friend with a LM IV and that has the 21mm float nut too. I've never bothered to read the side of his carbs but when working on it the nut is a bigun. Clearly the D's came later but the PHM's had the bigger nut earlier. Maybe they just consolidated the design.

No answers but I just see this as trying to get your head into the Italian way. I'm not even sure that using my logic to try and get sense out of this is the way to go. I just enjoy working my head through an issue. I may never get to the truth but I will reach a better understanding.

Rod in Oz.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Yep, I'm picking up a bit of angst and competitiveness now too. There appears to be some sort of quest to find the Holy PHF D's and I found them first!  ::)

Many of you don't know Martin but he has been working on Guzzis since before I could comb my penis.  :D I'd like to thank him as he has presented a few pieces of material that I wasn't aware of. Thanks to Kidneb for pointing out the D's. Funnily I now realise that I have worked on them before.

Ok, now to the PHF D's. I had a look at the bikes I have stored here and low and behold there is an 89 Cali 3 with PHF 30D's. There is absolutely no tuning, I say again tuning, difference to the B's. The jetting would be identical if the shroud system in identical. The 30D's on the Cali have the standard brass ring around the needle aperture and the jetting is consistent with that, 475cc bore cylinder capacity and 30mm chokes. This is why I never noticed the D except for the (D)amn big nut holding on the float bowl.

Why? I can only guess they wanted a bigger reservoir of fuel around the main jet. Not sure why as I've never had an issue with the B's. Maybe being the lowest point in the bowl it allowed more crap to form before affecting things but there is one real advantage that I can see. The Bs had a 14mm AF nut for the bowl. The Ds have a 21mm AF nut. The standard 22mm ring that comes with the standard tool kit for all the oil fillers also fits the D drain.  ;-T I can't think of one other 14mm AF nut or bolt on a LM III.

I have a friend with a LM IV and that has the 21mm float nut too. I've never bothered to read the side of his carbs but when working on it the nut is a bigun. Clearly the D's came later but the PHM's had the bigger nut earlier. Maybe they just consolidated the design.

No answers but I just see this as trying to get your head into the Italian way. I'm not even sure that using my logic to try and get sense out of this is the way to go. I just enjoy working my head through an issue. I may never get to the truth but I will reach a better understanding.

Rod in Oz.

No cigar Rod, we knew about them, sorry
It's the 36mm PHF D's you've got to find, OE on some Le Mans (with bell cranks). Not sure why we care but I'm now believing they existed.

I think your correct about nut size consolidation, D's in my book have 14mm nuts same as B's
Probably just 21mm on later models,book shows no vent spigots /shrouds  on early D.

[Morizzi]

No cigar Rod, we knew about them, sorry
It's the 36mm PHF D's you've got to find, OE on some Le Mans (with bell cranks). Not sure why we care but I'm now believing they existed.

I think your correct about nut size consolidation, D's in my book have 14mm nuts same as B's
Probably just 21mm on later models,book shows no vent spigots /shrouds  on early D.

I think I've gotten to a point that I don't care at all but I'll throw in these last pieces of information/theory.

The D's clearly came out after the B's. Even Kidnebs photo shows that later anodised look, they aren't listed in the early Dellorto tuning Guide as the Bs are  and D comes after B in the alphabet.  :BEER:

If you want to find PHF 36Ds then I'd be looking for the Guzzi mid valve models that came after the Lemans 850 series to find them. They came with PHF 36s.  Late Cali III's, last series 1000S's (not imported to Oz I've read) and maybe some of the Stradas and Milles. Not sure but maybe Cali 1100 carb. I'd bet Dusty's last dollar thats where they will be.

No cigar? that's OK, I don't smoke. :BEER:

[oldbike54]

Heck Rod , it might be my LAST dollar  ::) Wait , AUS or US ?  :BEER:
Dusty

[jacksonracingcomau]

I think I've gotten to a point that I don't care at all but I'll throw in these last pieces of information/theory.

The D's clearly came out after the B's. Even Kidnebs photo shows that later anodised look, they aren't listed in the early Dellorto tuning Guide as the Bs are  and D comes after B in the alphabet.  :BEER:

If you want to find PHF 36Ds then I'd be looking for the Guzzi mid valve models that came after the Lemans 850 series to find them. They came with PHF 36s.  Late Cali III's, last series 1000S's (not imported to Oz I've read) and maybe some of the Stradas and Milles. Not sure but maybe Cali 1100 carb. I'd bet Dusty's last dollar thats where they will be.

No cigar? that's OK, I don't smoke. :BEER:

just to clarify
36 D's are in my early Dell Orto book, with bell crank, pre anodised era, no vents or shrouds , 14mm nut
pic from Kidneb with anodised D is current Gutsibits stock, sold as replacement / add on, not as OE .

"My" mystery D's are not these but the ones in my book, with bell cranks, possibly OE on some LM's (see Kidneb's ref)
My book Nov 1985, lists PHF A-N but not F or L

Just to confirm date,  Laverda triples 1980- have PHF D's according to same book, so they're in right time frame .

Sorry Dusty, Rod would've lost your last dollar, is a bit my fault as link I found & posted was 77 book which did only go to PHFB but by 1980 the D had sprung to life.


Here's the early D type, date of print on bottom of page, spot the difference to B type anyone

[Morizzi]

Relax Dusty, you aren't destitute yet.  :D


My Dellorto Tuning Guide referring to PHFs show just the A and B. I can scan it but it won't post to my image folder. Glad your book shows the D but as I stated it isn't in my manual.

Edit, I was able to take a pic and this is what is shown. My Tuning Guide has no print date that I can find.



I'm not stating that your Dellorto manual may have inaccuracies but as far as I know the Lavs used the A type as they use the rigid clamp on style.




If you are wondering, that's my hand and my bike. Please note that there simply isn't the room to fit a B (flexible coupling) type in there between the head and filter box.

Many of them came OEM with 32's not 36's.

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Laverda/laverda_1000_jota%2076.htm


I'm not specifically a Guzzi guy but I do stick with Italians and I'll stick with my original statement that if you find a mid valved 1000 Guzzi from around 1990 I am pretty confident you will be in PHF 36D country.

This is one of those Italian moments, me thinks.  :BEER:

Spend that dollar quickly Dusty before he pulls out a Dellorto manual printed on papyrus reeds and written in Latin.  :D

[jacksonracingcomau]

Relax Dusty, you aren't destitute yet.  :D


My Dellorto Tuning Guide referring to PHFs show just the A and B. I can scan it but it won't post to my image folder. Glad your book shows the D but as I stated it isn't in my manual.

I'm not stating that your Dellorto manual may have inaccuracies but as far as I know the Lavs used the A type as they use the rigid clamp on style.

If you are wondering, that's my hand and my bike. Please note that there simply isn't the room to fit a B (flexible coupling) type in there between the head and filter box.

Many of them came OEM with 32's not 36's.

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Laverda/laverda_1000_jota%2076.htm


I'm not specifically a Guzzi guy but I do stick with Italians and I'll stick with my original statement that if you find a mid valved 1000 Guzzi from around 1990 I am pretty confident you will be in PHF 36D country.

This is one of those Italian moments, me thinks.  :BEER:

Spend that dollar quickly Dusty before he pulls out a Dellorto manual printed on papyrus reeds and written in Latin.  :D

Too late, Dusty, is 32 but 1 x DS and 2 x DD in black and white and yes, I've only seen with A's too
But as Pete so wisely says

(Sigh.)
A common mistake made by people who think they are cleverer than they are is to suggest that because they have never seen something it doesn't exist.
Pete

[Morizzi]

No cigar Rod, we knew about them, sorry
It's the 36mm PHF D's you've got to find, OE on some Le Mans (with bell cranks). Not sure why we care but I'm now believing they existed.

This is your quote Martin.

Read it carefully.  :D

According to you only 36's matter so I don't care how many 32s you throw at me they aren't relevant. The PHF 30Ds , in the flesh, I mentioned didn't impress you at all so your 2 dimensional black and white 32's leave me less than tepid. In fact I'm almost insulted you tried such a flimsy trick on me!  :D

You tried to flim-flam me with Laverdas but little did you know that i have a very mediocre knowledge and experience of them.  :D :D :D :BEER:

I hope you have a grin on your face because I have. I find all this 'trying to quantify Italian logic' hilarious.  :BEER:

Rod who thinks we really have gotten as far as we can expect to on this. Like LM I frame numbers, no one at the factory cared enough at the time to keep records that had no relevance to sales or production.

Just my opinion and it is getting time for a beer. I think Dusty's dollar is safe for now.  :BEER:

As I cracked my first cold and frosty I thought I would ring the Prez of CLQ (Club Laverda Queensland) as he has been into Lavs for many more years and back to when they were still in production. He can't recall a triple that uses the side pull (belltop) set up. His only question was 'How the f*ck would you route the cables?'

Rod in Oz.

[jacksonracingcomau]

This is your quote Martin.

Read it carefully.  :D

According to you only 36's matter so I don't care how many 32s you throw at me they aren't relevant. The PHF 30Ds , in the flesh, I mentioned didn't impress you at all so your 2 dimensional black and white 32's leave me less than tepid. In fact I'm almost insulted you tried such a flimsy trick on me!  :D

You tried to flim-flam me with Laverdas but little did you know that i have a very mediocre knowledge and experience of them.  :D :D :D :BEER:

I hope you have a grin on your face because I have. I find all this 'trying to quantify Italian logic' hilarious.  :BEER:

Rod who thinks we really have gotten as far as we can expect to on this. Like LM I frame numbers, no one at the factory cared enough at the time to keep records that had no relevance to sales or production.

Just my opinion and it is getting time for a beer. I think Dusty's dollar is safe for now.  :BEER:

As I cracked my first cold and frosty I thought I would ring the Prez of CLQ (Club Laverda Queensland) as he has been into Lavs for many more years and back to when they were still in production. He can't recall a triple that uses the side pull (belltop) set up. His only question was 'How the f*ck would you route the cables?'

Rod in Oz.

It is these below that are a mystery to me , really odd part is book shows 4 different sets of Laverda 3 with bell cranks and no straight pull version, I didn't write book and have seen many straight pull. Why different market should get different cables completely beyond me, book in latin Italian.

Back to the mystery 36D with bell cranks, not a later model ,from 1985 or earlier, must be a real train spotter somewhere who knows

[Vasco DG]

How about just jetting the poxy things up so they work?

Who gives a shit what the book says? The book can f*ck my dog!

Pete

[kidneb]

just to clarify
Here's the early D type, date of print on bottom of page, spot the difference to B type anyone

Anyone ?

Thanks Martin,- now I don`t feel so alone and abandoned any more !   It`s like finally -after a long , lonely and exhausting walk through an endless desert, to meet a person who gives you water to drink and tells you that he recognizes what you`re saying!
 :bow ;D :BEER:
I`ve been searching the web without finding any documentation for the existence of the early PHF36 D`s myself.

just to clarify
36 D's are in my early Dell Orto book, with bell crank, pre anodised era, no vents or shrouds , 14mm nut

Right-

I mainly posted the pic of the newer type, anodized, 21mm float nut D`s to show that they also are rubber mounted like the B type.

Thing is I`ve been monitoring the German eBay for years, and have seen the early type D`s auctioned several times in connection with roundhead LeMans` being chopped up for sale.
And in my usual simple-mindedness and primitive need of jumping to quick conclusions, I believed that (at least many of) the round fin LMs came with the D ,- non shrouded type PHF36`s, and that the LMIII came with shrouded B`s . But I can assure you that I have adopted a more broad and tolerant attitude toward the B versus D issue after following this thread !  ;D
I`ve (reluctantly! :)) given up the idea that all the B`s came shrouded from the factory,- and I`ve learned to accept that also roundfin LM`s came fitted with B type PHF`s  !
But I am not yet ready to fully give up the idea that at least some of the round fin LM`s came with the PHF36 D `s,- which also Martins Dellorto catalogue pic could indicate. Thank you for posting that !
   So,- as to the difference(s) of the early (14mm float nut) non shrouded B and D type, we still don`t have an answer!

But apart from that,- I fully agree to Vascos last post,- except I`m being ignorant of the doggy thing,- never had one myself ! :P