03 Stone Touring Revival

[chaoselephant23]

Good news. Bike started!!! Tried one last time before I put new plugs in and voila.

Not out of the water yet though. Let the bike warm up. Depressed the clutch. Shifted into first gear. Engine comes to a halt. Checked the play on the clutch cable. Was a little off. Adjusted to 3.5mm as per owners manual. Tried again. Bike comes to a halt the moment I kick down on the clutch pedal.

Could this be a symptom of bad clutch plates?

[FGO]

Nope, the bike has sat for so long the clutch plates are stuck together, too bad you don't have a center stand, you could put it first gear and run it in first gear then apply the rear brake while giving it some gas to break the clutch plates loose.  Had it happen to me before, once I broke them loose, no problem.  You might putting it in high gear, pull in the clutch and see if you and some big guys can make it roll ~;

[chaoselephant23]

Tried FGO's suggestion,

You might putting it in high gear, pull in the clutch and see if you and some big guys can make it roll ~;

albeit without the extra muscle. I can get the bike moving forwards up to a point. Then the back wheel locks up and slides across the ground. Going to wait for an evening when I can rally up some troops to try again.

Went out to try again this morning before work cause I never give in. But noticed something odd. The clutch cable lacked any free play! When I last left the bike, the clutch cable had the owners manual recommended free play of 3 to 4mm.

An earlier observation seems more pertinent now. On my first attempt at shifting the bike into gear whilst the bike was running, the clutch cable free play went from 3.5 mm to more than an inch. At the time I thought this wasn't a big deal as the engine had just stalled. Figured the cable had stretched from the sudden stop.

With the cable now tightening after just sitting at rest, I have a feeling it is a symptom that can help to diagnose. Any thoughts?

Also:
- could fresh lube on the cables with cold new england september nights cause the cable tightening?
- can clutch plates fuse themselves together?
- what would you have to do to fuse them together?
- would a mineral spirit batch help to unstick the clutch plates?

SIDENOTE: In my forum searches I found info on throwout bearings being the cause of loosening cables. Looked under the bike. Found the outer body of the throwout system to be flush with the tranny box.

[twhitaker]

The clutch cable freeplay changing is some telling evidence. IMHO it sounds like the friction material has come loose and is stacking up in there.

[Kiwi_Roy]

You should be able to push the bike in gear with the clutch lever pulled in.

The stalling when you try to engage first with the motor running may be the Neutral switch / Sidestand interlock

[Chuck in Indiana]

The clutch cable freeplay changing is some telling evidence. IMHO it sounds like the friction material has come loose and is stacking up in there.

I'm with Terry on this one..

[chaoselephant23]

Shucks! Crabbing the frame here I come ;D

Post up progress as I find time to get in there.

Big thanks to everyone for their guidance thus far!

[chaoselephant23]

Status Update:

Now that September's Vacation spree is over, I can refocus on the bike. (Not like I haven't been sneaking it in to my schedule or anything :)


Haven't gotten to crabbing the frame yet, but I have been educating myself on how its done, needed tooling and other things I should do beyond inspection & repair of the clutch. Here's that other list:
- Cleaning and re-greasing wheel bearings, replacing any if needed
- Cush drive modification (removing half & punching holes through the rubber pucks, if its not already done)
- Cleaning and re-greasing cush drive
- Cleaning and re-greasing rear drive splines
- Cleaning and re-greasing u-joint splines
- Cleaning and re-greasing swingarm bearings
- Cleaning and re-greasing u-joint carrier bearing, replacing if needed
- Replacing throwout bearing
- Replacing push rod seals
- Replacing clutch outer body o-ring
- Replacing clutch return spring
- Inspection of main front seal
- Inspection of transmission input seal


Checked the front fork for the triple tree crack. No cracks!!! Stamped 26 - 02.


Took off the valve cover to find:
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5

Based on what I have been reading I believe that the CAM recall was performed i.e. adjusters screwdriver slot machined off, shiny aluminum color to the valve spring tops.

However what I see in my motor does not match up with pics of a proven motor, one that had the CAM recall performed and is still in service). Here is link to a proven motor pic taken from thread '2004 Cal EV cam update', http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=45144.msg677444#msg677444

Has the CAM recall been performed on my motor?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Now you have the starter operating I suggest putting the bike in top gear, pulling the clutch in and with the foot brake on, pressing Start. That should break the clutch free if it's just rusted in place. You could unplug the ECU so there's no chance of it starting.

The 15 Amp start fuse will pop if the solenoid is sticking because one coil in the solenoid draws about 40 Amps, normally this coil is removed from circuit in < 1/2 second.

By the time you get that bike going it will be well sorted all that you are doing to it  ;-T

[chaoselephant23]

Now you have the starter operating I suggest putting the bike in top gear, pulling the clutch in and with the foot brake on, pressing Start. That should break the clutch free if it's just rusted in place. You could unplug the ECU so there's no chance of it starting.

The 15 Amp start fuse will pop if the solenoid is sticking because one coil in the solenoid draws about 40 Amps, normally this coil is removed from circuit in < 1/2 second.

By the time you get that bike going it will be well sported all that you are doing to it  ;-T

Thanks for the thumbs up Roy! This whole project has been a lot of fun and I haven't even ridden yet ;D I want to do as much as I can to help this bikes longevity. But also I just want to get my hands dirty with every aspect of motorcycle maintenance.

I'll be trying your suggestion the next chance I can get. So long as CT's fall rain-a-thon lets up >:(

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from Choas:

This whole project has been a lot of fun and I haven't even ridden yet

I wish I had that kind of persistence and attitude with mechanical things. What you have done and gone through so far would be my idea of a nightmare which would have caused me to pull my remaining hair out, kick the cat and drink a bottle of Beam. More power to you! :BEER:
GliderJohn

[chaoselephant23]

Tried Kiwi_Roy's suggestion to no avail :(

And thus began the journey to the center of the clutch...

Found the clutch plate closest to the ring gear had catastrophically failed :o All friction material was gone. Even some of the metal holding the friction material to the spline had broken away.
Clutch Plate 1

The second clutch plate fared better except for the big divets.
Clutch Plate 2

Luckily no damage to the flywheel, pressure plate, ring gear and clutch hub. Intermediate plate looks fine too, but since I already got a replacement and don't have a straight edge (nor am I ready to shell out for one), I'll be replacing the intermediate plate on ceremony. Clutch plates are going to be replaced with SD Tec plates from MGCycle.com

Next up on this train ride is the gearbox. Going to:
- Replace input seal
- Replace input o-rings
- Replace output seal
- Replace output o-rings
- Replace shift return spring
- Inspect for polymide caged bearings and replace as needed
- Shim the box

[Kiwi_Roy]

WOW!

Do you think that's why your Uncle parked it?

You are doing a fantastic job ;-T

[chaoselephant23]

Stripped the gearbox this past weekend. Quite a Thanksgiving indeed!

Along the way I found something very interesting: a pitted shift detent plunger.


Pretty sure I will need replace this one with a new one. Yes no?

Of more concern is, what would be the cause of this pitting?

I conjecture that poor shimming of the gearbox is suspect. If not shimmed properly, the plunger would not be centered in the shift drum slots.

I also believe the pitting is why finding neutral on the box takes a concentrated effort. Even then I still didn't hit neutral. Making the end case removal a little trickier.


In addition, I sourced 3205 AC3's manufactured by NTN from Motion Industries. However I was duped and sent 5205 AC3's with 9 balls, no  filling slot (which contradicts the website listing) and luckily steel cages.

What are your thoughts on running 9 ball steel caged bearings on the front of the input shaft and rear of the output shaft?

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'd run em.. but.. if you paid for 3205 AC3's  you should *get* 3205 AC3's.

[chaoselephant23]

Thanks Chuck for the sage advice! I was really spit between getting the job done half way right and now as compared to a week from now and perfecto. Patience wins:) I talked with Motion Industries this afternoon. They agreed to an exchange. I'll know tomorrow, when their product guy gets back from sick leave, on whether or not they can actually source the 14 ball steel cage 3205 AC3's.


Anyone got an opinion on the shift detent plungers pits?

[chaoselephant23]

Well in the end, my opinion was to replace the shift detent plunger. Didn't pass the float test lol

After three long month's, spent going to Colorado to visit my brother for Christmas, then coming back to a gnarly New England winter that meant not a dime spent on resorts as the local spots were powedered up (which meant a constant source of distraction), I finally got back to the bike.

Started off replacing the 3205's and the 6303, as it felt notchy. Did end up getting the correct 3205s from Motion Industries.

Next moved onto shimming the gearbox. Took 6 take down and re-builds to get the shifting dialed in. Totally worth it! Bike shifts up and down without issue and finds neutral with a very satisfying click. And I have a much greater understanding of how the box works. I don't think that many shimming attempts were necessary. Its just that my OCD kicked in. Enjoyed gathering the results from each shim job. Then performing analysis against all the data sets. Wanted to absolutely be sure I was choosing the correct shim and not arbitrarily because 'i feel its right'. I eventually settled on 1mm front and 1mm back. Technically the gearbox would like 1.1mm front and 0.9mm back, based on all data sets, but I'm too lazy and cheap to get some custom shims made up.

With the shim sizes figured out, I assembled the gearbox. All new seals and o-rings were installed. Shift return spring was replaced. Shift detent plunger was replaced. Input and output shaft nuts were replaced. Input shaft nut had been banged on chisel style. Lock washer behind the nut was missing 4 tangs. Output shaft collar had been pounded into place more than once. One spot already had been broken away. Tried to un-bend the other spot without breaking, but it did not. I also added back the missing lower speedo drive washer (thanks Harpers:). Installation made easy by the leftover piece of insulation hanging wire I had after making the fork arm bent coat hanger tool. Tickled me pink to know that a simple piece of straight metal that cost next to nothing was the most useful tool for the gearbox and beyond!

I then started work on the swingarm. I was going to ignore the carrier bearing, but with 25k on the odometer and Guizziology harping on about 25k to 30k I decided to get in deep. Glad I did as the carrier bearing was notchy and one of the U-Joint crosses was feeling stiff. Sent the U-Joint out the John Chicoine for a rebuild. Turned it around in <2 weeks!!!! Installed the carrier bearing without issue. Put the U-Joint in the freezer overnight. They tried to install the U-Joint, but did not have any success. As I needed to get the bike out of the garage for a garage door install and with a home remodel needing all my attention, I am going to have the dealership install the u-joint while the bike is in for the recall work.

While I was waiting for the u-joint to get back from servicing, I reassembled the front end. Gearbox went on. Attached clutch cable and verified that the clutch and gearbox are working. Cleaned the throttle body very thoroughly before reinserting the RC Engineering cleaned fuel injectors. Replaced the M5 with 3mm shallow hex head screws attaching the FIs with deep socket hex cap screws. Want to avoid stripping those screws again. Was not fun being so close to the throttle body with a metal cutting wheel. Hooked up all connections. Replaced all fuel hoses, vapor recovery system hoses, engine breather hoses and 8mm ID airbox breather hose. Got the airbox back in. Mounted the front wheel. Cleaned the caliper and brake disc. Installed new front brake pads. Found out why overfilling brakes is-a-not-a-good:( Next replaced the rear brake pads. Bled front and rear brakes. Then took on the challenge of replacing the internal fuel pumps filter. Took a while, but got done with an improvement. Last person in there did not zip tie the filter tightly to the pump. Filter had gouges in the bottom lip from pressing up against an electrical connection strong enough to dig in deep:() Good thing I was in there:) Finally, after the months of toiling away, I put the battery in, took a few deep breaths and pressed the ignition switch….. BROOOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!!



Now its time to fix those tappets. Called Hamlin Cycles in Bethel, CT who agreed to take on the recall work. Brought the bike to them Tuesday May 19. Took a 2 hour tour of the shop whilst working out the details of my work order. Lovely dealership! Everyone in the shop was very welcoming and accomodating. Even with the shop being filled up to the brim. Left feeling very hopeful that the bike would be ready for prime time in a few months time.

Then, over the din, came a phone call that would spell the end for this bike: Piaggio will not perform recall work for any bike 10 years or older since first purchased. Turns out my bike was initially purchased in June of 2003. Thus the cutoff is June of 2013:( The parts kit can still be purchased from Guzzi for the low price of $1756.55. And then there is the tool kit (although I’m sure some folk on here would be more than happy to lend them out:)

Talked with Hamlin Cycles today about how to proceed with Piaggio. We are going to try and acquire just the parts kit for free, that in a few years time will just sit and rot in there parts warehouse. I can understand not wanting to shell out for free service. But not giving away the parts that should have been installed in the motorcycle in the first place, is just plain wrong. Hopefully this line of reasoning is enough to convince Piaggio.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Quite a project. Nice work! Best of luck on that recall stuff... they oughta give you the kit, but that's just MHO.

[JeffOlson]

^ I agree on the kit. What else are they going to do with it?

Best of luck!

[Steph]

You've got more patience than me!
I would have checked the oils, put a new Odessey battery-in and gone for a ride :)
Work-out the details later -life's too short.

Then you would have guess that your uncle parked it because it needed a new clutch and gone from there.
K.I.S.S. comes to mind  ;)

Hey Chaos, good to know that you listened to our advices, best of luck with the clutch request with Piaggio :BEER:

[chaoselephant23]

And I thought I was going to get trolled considering I did the work before I checked into the recall. Thanks for all the support y'all!

I'll be calling MPH Cycles on Tuesday. Rather get a cheap kit now while it's available then wait for Piaggio to change their tune along with all the aggravation that route will entail.

Have fun riding this Memorial Day!

[chaoselephant23]

Called MPH Cycles today. Got myself a hydro kit!!! $125 plus shipping ;-T Huge thanks to everyone for the lead. And an even bigger thanks to MPH Cycles. :bow

Anyone looking for one cheap, better give MPH a call. There is quite literally a few!

Called Hamilin Cycles to revise the work order. They are going to install the u-joint and fit some new tires. Should be ready for pickup on Saturday.

Now time to borrow some install tools, research the procedure, acquire extras like a revised oil pump from MG Cycle and raise the Phoenix from the ashes  ~;

[Aaron D.]

That's great news. It is too nice a bike to die.

[chaoselephant23]

With the parts kit in hand, I went about procuring the tool kit and installation instructions. MPH came through again by taking the time to trawl through the computer for the installation instructions.

Mighty big thank you to brlawson for loaning me the cam recall tool kit!

While waiting for the tools, I went about mucking with the front end.
* Tapped the fork legs for drain screws as per Guzziology. Used clutch pushrod o-rings to create a nice seal. Going to get some sealing washers at the next change as the o-rings like to squish out when you tighten the screws down. Worry they might come loose. Will be watching.
* Replaced the fork seals
* Replaced the dust seals
* Installed some K&S Tech fork gaiters meant for a Bonneville. Lookin fresh!

Friday was a tough day at the office: the tool kit came! Hard to focus when all you want to do is wrench. Alas I had to wait until Sunday to start the parts kit install. Progress was slow today though. Constant interruptions all throughout the day  Managed to get to the step where you remove the timing case bolt.

Which brings up a question. The instructions tell you to clean the sump. With a warning not to reinstall the sump. They then have you strip things to get into the timing chest. Meaning the timing chest bolt has to be removed. From what I can tell the timing chest bolt is what supports the crankcase up front. Without supporting the crankcase you would be putting lots of strain on the bell housing. Further confounding are the images. Image of timing chest bolt removal shows a sump attached to the crankcase supported by a jack. Later on when they have you clean the crankcase, there is no jack under the crankcase and you can't really tell if the timing chest bolt is installed. Don't believe the timing chest bolt is installed as a later instruction has you spraying into the crankcase from the cam shaft opening. So, can you remove the timing chest bolt without the crankcase being supported?

[Vasco DG]

Yup, no issue at all with taking out the timing cheat bolt.

Pete

[chaoselephant23]

Thanks Pete! No issues without the sump support.

Now if only I had been paying more attention to the instructions I wouldn't have missed the tooling needs for crankshaft nut removal. Took a day off, made good progress, got to the crankshaft nut, then realized 'Oh... there is ~4in. of crankshaft in the way'. Tried to find a 1/2" or 3/4" drive 32mm extra deep socket or a 3/4" drive regular, deep wall or extra deep wall locally, but no luck. I could get a 3/4" 32mm deep wall socket through Snap-On, but wasn't about to pay $52 for a sacrificial socket, as flats would have to be ground into the socket. Through some forum trawling I found that others have used a Sunex 232mxd (1/2" drive 32mm extra deep impact socket), so I placed an order online. In the mean time, I picked up a Harbor Freight 1/2" drive 32mm for $5 with the hopes that I could bore the 1/2" to 3/4" before the online ordered socket arrived. I did manage to bore a hole through the socket, but not before the socket arrived in the mail Good learning experience though. Die grinders FTW! Anyways, once I had the extra deep socket, crankshaft nut removal was a press of the rattle gun away.

Finished the disassembly and cleaning phase of the CAM recall this weekend. Worst fear did not come true:) CAM deterioration had only just started. All 4 lobes display smooth even wear in the same pattern. Two lobes have random pitting. With the other two lobes looking like the random pitting is about to start. Front and rear bearing surfaces on the CAM shaft and crankcase are in great shape. Engine does not have to be scraped!!!






Going to be re-assembling when I have the energy after work this week. Fingers crossed for this weekend, but 2 friends with birthdays is calling for a lot of drankin

[chaoselephant23]

Further inspection of the timing chain now has me waiting for a new chain. And I just ordered some random things from MGCycle  Found maximum of 7mm of deflection in the chain. Tensioner shoe also had some good sized grooves.

Something has been bugging me about the sump: the amount of sludge I found. It was about an 1/8 of an inch thick. No pics unfortunately. Feel that's a lot for a bike with 25k. Talked shop with a gear headed co-worker. His recommendation, based on the fact that 2 small spots of carbon build-up could be seen on the base of the pistons when lookin up through the crankcase, is to take the headers off, clean the top of the piston, clean the exposed part of the valves, header sealing surfaces and replace with a new gasket. Figure why not. Gives me a chance to replace the stud o-rings (at least 8 of em), pick out the rusted exhaust port gaskets without getting crude into the cylinder and venture into another area of the bike. Do you think its worth removing the headers for a cleaning and inspection?

[oldbike54]

 If you mean the heads , probably can't hurt . Then you will be much more comfortable with the mechanical condition of the engine . A thin film of carbon is beneficial however .

  Dusty

[rodekyll]

What does the sludge look like?

People add stuff to oil or use the wrong spec oil in guzzis all the time.  One of the side effects is stuff coming out of solution and settling to the bottom of the sump.  Moly additives come to mind as a typical, but certainly not exclusive example.  We use it in some gearboxes.  A little dab might be a good thing, but a bigger dab isn't always a better thing.  Only so much moly can be held in suspension.  Any more and it migrates to the bottom where it lives and builds up over years of adding it.

So you might be looking at a non-issue.  If it's a concern, you can have it analyzed (I never have) to find out exactly what it is.

I don't get the connection between the sump sludge and what your friend is recommending (although I have no objection to doing those things).

[chaoselephant23]

Sludge is deep dark black in color. Very thick and sticky. I wasn't concerned until my colleague said something. Colleagues thoughts were lots of sludge at low mileages = lots of carbon buildup up top, this being predicated on the carbon build-up on the underside of the piston (side facing into the crankcase). Seeing as he has many more years experience wrenching than I, felt it prudent to consider his opinion. So I take it carbon produced above the piston has no way to traverse down into the sump?