Is this oil change really necessary ?

[HDGoose]

Oils for the past 20 years is being wasted if changed before 5000 miles. Even in old bikes. The oils have changed, even if the bikes have not. Based upon oil samples pulled from bikes in 1985-1986, from bikes with 3000 miles to 120,000 miles, and from 8 years old two 30 years old. The oldest was a Panhead. The oil samples were pulled for a thesis of a engineering masters degree for a Tulane student. He then scanned the oil for breakdown of viscosity and particle content.  None of the oil samples showed breakdown before 5000 miles.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Oils for the past 20 years is being wasted if changed before 5000 miles. Even in old bikes. The oils have changed, even if the bikes have not. Based upon oil samples pulled from bikes in 1985-1986, from bikes with 3000 miles to 120,000 miles, and from 8 years old two 30 years old. The oldest was a Panhead. The oil samples were pulled for a thesis of a engineering masters degree for a Tulane student. He then scanned the oil for breakdown of viscosity and particle content.  None of the oil samples showed breakdown before 5000 miles.

Breakdown is one thing, contamination is completely different issue. No way I'd run any oil 5k miles in any of my bikes, especially the Ambassador (which has no filter). "Waste" or not, it's getting changed. Oil is a lot cheap than engine rebuilds...

[Randown]

Oils for the past 20 years is being wasted if changed before 5000 miles. Even in old bikes. The oils have changed, even if the bikes have not. Based upon oil samples pulled from bikes in 1985-1986, from bikes with 3000 miles to 120,000 miles, and from 8 years old two 30 years old. The oldest was a Panhead. The oil samples were pulled for a thesis of a engineering masters degree for a Tulane student. He then scanned the oil for breakdown of viscosity and particle content. None of the oil samples showed breakdown before 5000 miles.

I wonder if you mean to say the oils showed little degradation of their TBN.

"The TOTAL BASE NUMBER determines how effective the control of acids formed will be during the combustion process. The higher the TBN, the more effective it is in suspending wear-causing contaminants and reducing the corrosive effects of acids over an extended period of time."

It's not uncommon for motorcycles with shared sumps to DROP a full vis grade within 2,000 miles after an oil change - so a XW50 becomes an XW40 at that time. The oil remains perfectly fine to use at the new grade, mfrs are aware this happens, some engines are tougher on viscosity than others.

[Waterbottle]

You have to move to keep warm so you can load as well as handing me the beers. :) It's seriously pretty country out here.

PM sent

[Chuck in Indiana]

This , plus acids formed by the combustion contaminants , I wouldn't like them sitting in my sump all winter ?
I had an owner question me this week because I changed the the oil in his piper Cherokee after 4 hrs of use. The last oil change was 3 1/2 years ago  :D

Yep. Since the cam is in the top of a Lycoming, rust will kill it.
"Oh, waa.. I had to put in 5 quarts of $7 oil.."  ::)

[Pfaff!]

This , plus acids formed by the combustion contaminants , I wouldn't like them sitting in my sump all winter ?

But you don't mind letting that hot corrosive acid poison circulating in every gallery and bearing summertime?  ::)

[Lannis]

Breakdown is one thing, contamination is completely different issue. No way I'd run any oil 5k miles in any of my bikes, especially the Ambassador (which has no filter). "Waste" or not, it's getting changed. Oil is a lot cheap than engine rebuilds...

Even Guzzi's recommendation is 6250 miles between changes on the newer engines with the good oil and a good filter.   And that's probably conservative, since not everyone gets their bike hot every time they take it out.

Lannis

[Kev m]

But if the oil additive package is not used up the acids aren't there since they were neutralized.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

But if the oil additive package is not used up the acids aren't there since they were neutralized.

But how do you determine if the additive package is "used up" or not without sending an oil sample away for testing? For the cost and trouble of doing that, you may as well just change the oil.  :beat_horse

[Kev m]

But how do you determine if the additive package is "used up" or not without sending an oil sample away for testing? For the cost and trouble of doing that, you may as well just change the oil.  :beat_horse

You start by trusting the uber conservative OEM recommendations.

Maybe you send one sample one time to check your particular usage patterns/conditions.

I've seen automotive samples come back good after more than 15k miles.

Have to believe a modern air-cooled motorcycle can make it half that with decent oil and non severe usage.

[lucky phil]

It's not uncommon for motorcycles with shared sumps to DROP a full vis grade within 2,000 miles after an oil change - so a XW50 becomes an XW40 at that time. The oil remains perfectly fine to use at the new grade, mfrs are aware this happens, some engines are tougher on viscosity than others.

Not if you use a full group 4 synthetic it wont.
Ciao

[Randown]

Group IV & V are subject to shear / viscosity loss. A lot of people that are into reading used oil analysis DON'T use synthetics when they aren't needed, they feel it's a waste of $.

[Thunderbox]

This , plus acids formed by the combustion contaminants , I wouldn't like them sitting in my sump all winter ?
I had an owner question me this week because I changed the the oil in his piper Cherokee after 4 hrs of use. The last oil change was 3 1/2 years ago  :D

I have to ask.  iI there are acids in your oil during the 3, 4, 5, 6, months of winter the bike sits in the garage why is that worse than having that same oil in your engine for the six months you ride it and don't accumulate 5000 miles.  I would rather have acid in my sump than circulated through my engine.  The TBN of modern oils eliminates any acids that may have been present in oils 50 years ago.

[Tazturtle]

I ride all year round (it only snows up on the mountains in Winter here) so don't have a layup.

We are seasonal water skiers though. I leave the old oil in over winter in our 350 chev equipped ski boat (hey, it's just sitting there) and change it fresh for the start of the new season.

Kurt

[Waterbottle]

I have to ask.  iI there are acids in your oil during the 3, 4, 5, 6, months of winter the bike sits in the garage why is that worse than having that same oil in your engine for the six months you ride it and don't accumulate 5000 miles.  I would rather have acid in my sump than circulated through my engine.  The TBN of modern oils eliminates any acids that may have been present in oils 50 years ago.

Thunderbox, you've just sent me into a tail spin  :D
I have been regurgitating what I've been taught and only half read in text books, you are correct.
Does this mean the acids are Neutralised completely or just held in suspension ?
Thanks for getting me to research that, now I "half" understand another number on the oil spec sheets  ;-T

[bikelee]

I did the oil and filter change after a great 4 hour ride. I feel better about having clean oil over the winter in the bike. I put a hose clamp around the filter so it would not loosen. I really love my 03 Rossa. It really is a hell of a machine. What more can I say. I appreciate all the advice and encouragement. Thanks.



Leon

[Lannis]

 

I did the oil and filter change after a great 4 hour ride. I feel better ......
Leon

That's really the to the whole thing anyway when it comes to oil.   Whatever you do with the oil and engine probably doesn't make a nickels worth of real performance difference in the real world, despite all the words spent on it .... ;-T

[Thunderbox]

This , plus acids formed by the combustion contaminants , I wouldn't like them sitting in my sump all winter ?
I had an owner question me this week because I changed the the oil in his piper Cherokee after 4 hrs of use. The last oil change was 3 1/2 years ago  :D

But it is okay to leave them in over the summer when temperatures are much warmer and acids would be much more corrosive?????  Sometimes things people say just don't make a lot of sense. 

Any oil worth it's salt will have plenty of TBN.  Think of TBN as a number that shows the level of reserve anti-acid or acid neutralization remaining in the used oil.  In all the years I worked on fleet vehicles and after hundreds of oil analysis I have yet to see the TAN or TBN used up and cause any problems.  If the oil is okay to run the engine with, then it is okay to store it with that oil in the crankcase.

[canuguzzi]

Rather change the oil before a riding season than after.

[jackson]

 :pop :pop :pop

[Lannis]

How is that different than resurrecting a five-month-old oil thread?  We need to just let these things die.

Irony.

Funnier than goldy or bronzy.   

The most effective and efficient and absolutely foolproof way to keep a thread alive is to post to it, even if the text in post says "We need to just let these things die"!!    ???    :D

Lannis

[Kev m]

But it is okay to leave them in over the summer when temperatures are much warmer and acids would be much more corrosive?????  Sometimes things people say just don't make a lot of sense. 

Any oil worth it's salt will have plenty of TBN.  Think of TBN as a number that shows the level of reserve anti-acid or acid neutralization remaining in the used oil.  In all the years I worked on fleet vehicles and after hundreds of oil analysis I have yet to see the TAN or TBN used up and cause any problems.  If the oil is okay to run the engine with, then it is okay to store it with that oil in the crankcase.

Thank you for addressing this both from the science of oil additives and from personal experience with oil analysis.

That beats folklore and paranoia any day.

[mtiberio]

I don't worry about acids...