Not really a new topic. Cam failures 8V.

[Vasco DG]

I can see there are going to be some lights on in the Guzzi garages tonight!  That can't be good and seems to speak to what Pete has been saying is the problem.  Aargh!

If people start pulling their rocker covers willy-nilly we'll probably have a rash of torn plug boots to contend with as well. Be careful.

The 8V's rocker covers run cooler due to the thick neoprene gaskets which are an excellent insulator. The reason why this moisture is a lot less of a problem with the old 2VPC motor is that the camshaft sits in the valley. On the 8V they sit in the camboxes in the heads where the warm, damp air will rise to when the engin is off and cooling and the Mayo that forms can drip into the weirs where the cam lobes sit through large, conveniently placed, openings in the sides of them. Is this the problem? I think so but nobody knows for sure.

The exhaust tappets fail first but this is unsurprising given their much more hostile work environment.

The springs never reach anywhere close to coilbind. In fact later models have the inlet valves shimmed for increased preload. Note that the beehive springs are rising rate and each valve uses only a single spring.

Pete

[biking sailor]

Data point, I found the "mayo" gunk in the valve cover of my 2V 1200 Sport.  During winter.  I ride all year, all temps, sans Ice.

Did not see it on the Stelvio (rollers), but because the bike would be my primary transportation all year, and riding only 17 miles of highway in sub-freezing conditions are a requirement, I elected to not get another Guzzi after the deer killed my Stelvio and reading the recommendations that these bikes are not good for short rides. 

Shame because I loved everything about that bike (after all the sorting of "character stuff" was done), power delivery, handling, ergos...   :'(

[Vasco DG]

Data point, I found the "mayo" gunk in the valve cover of my 2V 1200 Sport.  During winter.  I ride all year, all temps, sans Ice.

Did not see it on the Stelvio (rollers), but because the bike would be my primary transportation all year, and riding only 17 miles of highway in sub-freezing conditions are a requirement, I elected to not get another Guzzi after the deer killed my Stelvio and reading the recommendations that these bikes are not good for short rides. 

Shame because I loved everything about that bike (after all the sorting of "character stuff" was done), power delivery, handling, ergos...   :'(

With a roller top end it would *Probably* of been fine. In cold weather simply masking off the cooler would probably of been adequate to keep oil temps up to an acceptable level as long as it wasn't raining every time you rode.

Pete

[Vasco DG]

 OK just an update on this topic.

The bike I was dealing with was a 1200 Sport 8V. While I'd had the cams out before and examined everything it must of been failing for a while with no evidence as it was giving me kittens!

Anyway this time around the evidence was there, the factory approved a roller kit for it but they were out of stock as there has been a run on them this spring, (Hmmmmm?). Luckily I had the kit I bought for mine so I was able to use that. It was missing one bit but I was able to canibalise that out of the dead Stelvio.

Finally got it running this morning and what a differenece. It clearly shows that even invisible damage will have an impact on performance. Interestingly the factory has a new map specifically for rollerised Sport 1200's. I uploaded this and also very interestingly the TPS value changed to 7.5 degrees, an almost identical change as we have experienced with Mark's mapping changes. Perhaps the WM guys are learning ;D. A quick re-set of the TPS and self learning parameters and well! What a difference! Idle is still far from perfect but that is probably a result of the trim factors imposed by the closed loop operation. It also seems to be improving as a 20 minute ride made it significantly better.

Thing is the Sport 1200's use a 'Stand alone' cam profile in flat tappet form. The 'C' kit has a 'Universal' profile. That means that a new map would of been essential. Anyway this bike is off to Wagga soon so Mark can Log build a map for it. After that we should have that covered for bikes that haven't been screwed with by fitting junk like aftermarket filters and the like.

I'm glad I finally got to the bottom of it though, I've spent at least a fortnight on this great chunk of munt over the last six months and now, at last, it's running OK.

Pete

[Kev m]

How many 'Home Mechanics' possess Navigator or PADS? While most of us know that you can use a number of aftermarket tools to perform tasks like re-setting the TPS and the adjustable parameters of the ECU the simple fact is the only FACTORY APPROVED way of doing this is with the factory tooling. Don't have access to it? Fine! See you in court! I'm not saying this is necessarily right or fair but I'd say that legally you'd have a hard time pressing your claim. If you can't re-set your TPS you can't correctly balance your throttle bodies. If you don't keep your throttle bodies balanced you are not properly maintaining your bike. QED. Warranty declined. There is more to 'Servicing' a bike than changing its oil and adjusting the valve lash.

Pete

Just catching up on this thread. No dog in this hunt, but your logic re invalidating the warranty for use of aftermarket tools won't fly in the US.

Mag-Moss applies equally here.

A reset tool is no different than a brand of oil, they cannot require their own "brand" as condition of warranty or it must be provided free of charge.

Now it's a different thing if you load a modified map AND they can tie that to a failure, but resetting the TPS and checking/adjusting TB balance, no.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Now it's a different thing if you load a modified map AND they can tie that to a failure, but resetting the TPS and checking/adjusting TB balance, no.

Don't think tie-ing it could be argued against, that and aftermarket exhausts/ non std air filters etc go under the "fiddled with" clause.

Warranty only has to covers std , but reading between the lines Guzzi are covering all failures regardless of mileage /age.
but only failures, so logical thing to do is ride it till it fails, seems mad not to recall all,  but bean counters know only a few bikes get ridden, why fix those that don't break ?

If it were a lock up and throw you off scenario it would be different but very little litigation risk here, just inconvenience of putting it in van.


What happened to RTW Stelvio man of a couple of years ago, did his cams go west ? That was good test

[Kev m]

Don't think tie-ing it could be argued against, that and aftermarket exhausts/ non std air filters etc go under the "fiddled with" clause.

No it has to be directly connected to deny specific coverage under the warranty in the US.

Very few things can blanket void a warranty here, except things like racing it.

If you load a map or change pipes and an AC they can't deny you say coverage of a defective starter or regulator, but they could piston or valve damage if it's connected to the modification (running too lean or even too rich depending on the failure).

[jacksonracingcomau]

No it has to be directly connected to deny specific coverage under the warranty in the US.

Very few things can blanket void a warranty here, except things like racing it.

If you load a map or change pipes and an AC they can't deny you say coverage of a defective starter or regulator, but they could piston or valve damage if it's connected to the modification (running too lean or even too rich depending on the failure).

This case is slightly different as it's "goodwill" out of warranty claim, Pete said they're covering all 8V that fail.
If the bean counters are onto it, they can and will disclude modified bikes.
Even under warranty, camshaft damage could feasibly be "tuned" related , be a long legal battle to prove it wasn't, tuned to destruction, they'd say. Expensive lawyer to argue.
But if several hundred got their claims knocked back it may be worth it, class action ?

[Kev m]

This case is slightly different as it's "goodwill" out of warranty claim, Pete said they're covering all 8V that fail.
If the bean counters are onto it, they can and will disclude modified bikes.
Even under warranty, camshaft damage could feasibly be "tuned" related , be a long legal battle to prove it wasn't, tuned to destruction, they'd say. Expensive lawyer to argue.
But if several hundred got their claims knocked back it may be worth it, class action ?

I know, I'm not questioning any of that.

I was simply clarifying that it is hard to blanket void a warranty in the US.

It's tangentially related to the thread as the discussion brought it up.

Piaggio is free to do what they want with regards to goodwill after the warranty period.

But for failures that occur in warranty, they can't use simply resetting the tps with Guzzidiag vs. NAV or PADS as an excuse assuming related services were properly performed.

The burden being on Piaggio to demonstrate that it wasn't.

[Kev m]

Or if you want to fly a bunch of giant flags on the rear of your trike , and the clutch fails . Hmm , wonder how a warranty claim would hold up if the rider and passenger were both , er , well , 400 pounders  ;D

  Dusty

Yeah, that was a weird one, but it was at least arguably related. And I suspect we didn't get all the story in that 15 minutes.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I know, I'm not questioning any of that.

I was simply clarifying that it is hard to blanket void a warranty in the US.

It's tangentially related to the thread as the discussion brought it up.

Piaggio is free to do what they want with regards to goodwill after the warranty period.

But for failures that occur in warranty, they can't use simply resetting the tps with Guzzidiag vs. NAV or PADS as an excuse assuming related services were properly performed.

The burden being on Piaggio to demonstrate that it wasn't.

I concur
But modifying map, exhaust etc another story, they can use that, not saying they will but they can.
Not using factory tools to rest std parameters would be a very long bow IMHO

[Vasco DG]

In my experience the importer here is very good and will, as long as the Dealer/Service Agent isn't trying to pull their chain, will go into bat for the customer. Ultimately though it is down to the factory to make the final call and sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

With the failed tappet issues as long as I've been able to provide some sort of record of when services were provided and by whom I haven't had a problem. The only one that was touch and go was a bike from the North Coast of NSW which had no record but even it got a kit because it was an ex importer demo.

Pete

[lucky phil]

In Australia the overarching consideration with regard to the law and warranty is "fit for purpose"
In other words even if outside the covered period the product fails in a manner that it should reasonably be expected to not, then the manufacturer is libel because the product hasn't fulfilled its reasonably expected purpose.
So an engine that eats it cams or whatever outside the warranty period but within a period that it could reasonably be expected to still be totally serviceable falls within that criterion.
It's what keeps the manufacturers honest and has them coming to the party with out of warranty issues.That and the obvious good will to the customer and the reputation of the company.
It's not all black and white
Ciao

[Vasco DG]

Well today I boxed up a load of broken shite and posted it to Denmark!

One of our members who I'm sure will identify himself if he wants to has access to all sorts of boffiny testing machinery and he's going to analyse aome of the crap looking for clues.

Stay posted.

Pete

[Phang]

Pete, I would like to share the postage in the name of research.

You are sharing the information with us, it is not right for you to bear the cost alone.

[Vasco DG]

Nah, s'all good. I stuffed two cams. A cambox and a hand full of crappy tappys in one of the boxes the new parts come in and the whole lot weighed less than two Kg so it didn't cost much, really. If we get some useful info we need to buy the bloke who's doing it a swag of beers!

Pete

[Dick]

Well today I boxed up a load of broken shite and posted it to Denmark!

One of our members who I'm sure will identify himself if he wants to has access to all sorts of boffiny testing machinery and he's going to analyse aome of the crap looking for clues.

Stay posted.

Pete

Should prove useful. ;-T  I imagine a factory team has looked into this problem. Are they not forthcoming with their findings? Though, I suppose disclosing that, or not, is their choice.

[Vasco DG]

Getting any information from the factory is like getting blood from a stone. If I could get any kind of believable answer from that source I wouldn't be bothering to pursue this, believe me.

Pete

[steffen]

Nah, s'all good. I stuffed two cams. A cambox and a hand full of crappy tappys in one of the boxes the new parts come in and the whole lot weighed less than two Kg so it didn't cost much, really. If we get some useful info we need to buy the bloke who's doing it a swag of beers!

Pete

I'll buy him beers.

My griso (2010) and I are following this thread with a little bit of anxiety.
13.000 km and everything is fine so far. Now it's winter here in Denmark, griso is in hibernation, waiting for more flogging in the spring.
/Steffen, Denmark.

[lucian]

Couldn't stand back and let this one fall off the front page!

[Trogladyte]

Well I'm pretty happy with my 08 8v Griso now. It's had four sets of cam gear on re-opened warranties. The last one was fitted in February this year. It's still running -in fact it is going better than it ever has before. I hardly dare say it, but I think they may have fixed it with the roller tappets.

This is the longest I have ever gone without a failure! Coming up to 30k miles. And Guzzi gave me a Termignoni can as a good will gesture!

[lucian]

Checked with the mg dealer here to see if they could get a roller tappet upgrade for the 09 griso. They checked into it and were told the factory would not release the kit untill the bike failed. Now way to buy one outright. Can anyone say   aftermarket?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Checked with the mg dealer here to see if they could get a roller tappet upgrade for the 09 griso. They checked into it and were told the factory would not release the kit untill the bike failed. Now way to buy one outright. Can anyone say   aftermarket?

There's no way that a low production machine like a Guzzi will ever have after market parts like that..

[Vasco DG]

Checked with the mg dealer here to see if they could get a roller tappet upgrade for the 09 griso. They checked into it and were told the factory would not release the kit untill the bike failed. Now way to buy one outright. Can anyone say   aftermarket?

Well they sell them happily to me ??? Not cheap mind.

Pete

[lucian]

I realize your 100% right about that Chuck in Ind. The dealer also explained that of the 2 failures they've seen, the factory sent them replacement flat tappets to make the repair. They didn't mention if they were the dlc coated type or not. Guess I'll be riding with my fingers crossed for know. 8v roulette, maybe I should check with some other dealers.

[Vasco DG]

Lucian, ask them to punch 1A002082 into their parts system. That's the 'C' kit that you need if you have an A5 motor. I can get you one easily enough although they're on back order right now. Cost here is $1,739.73 but the exchange rate is really in your favour at the moment. My guess is that it would be cheaper buying from Italy or wherever.

Oh, AF1 have 'em listed at $1486 US so I'm sure any other dealer can get you one if they can be bothered. Give MPH a ring or one of the guys who post here.

Pete

[Rough Edge racing]

 So what we have here is a flat tappet Guzzi 8V  converted to roller tappet? Excuse my ignorance but an 8 valve has pushrods and cam in the V valley ? And the rollers run on the existing flat tappet cam?

[Aaron D.]

No, overhead cam with flat tappets, like many modern cars.

[Dick]

No, overhead cam with flat tappets, like many modern cars.

Not a true OHC engine. More like a mid *cam in head* engine.

[Rough Edge racing]

Not a true OHC engine. More like a mid *cam in head* engine.

 Oh... Like the 60-70's Opel 4 cylinder?  So there's a rocker with a cylinder shaped tappet running directly on the cam?....The reason  I asked is a roller cam has different lobe profiles than a flat tappet cam....replacing a typical round tappet with a roller will shorten cam duration  quite a bit