Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)

[boatdetective]

You are ignoring the reports of prior past inappropriate behavior by this manager.  That's not hearsay if it is told by those who witnessed or experienced it -- its what is known as a pattern or practice, and it can get the company in deep do-do if they do nothing about it.  The employees do not even have to go to higher management with this first before launching lawsuits -- the fact that this was done by a person with management authority makes it the actions of the company for liability purposes, even if the company has policies against this behavior.

Your equation of sexual harassment with the normal dangers, risks and discomforts of various jobs is disconcerting.  Forcing women to run a gauntlet of harassment in order to get a paycheck is not a legitimate component of ANY job.  I can't imagine your attitude being so sanguine if it was your young daughter coming home every night and telling you about the latest indignities she had to suffer at work.  

Yes, it used to be different.  In "The Good 'Ol Days" (TM), you could call your female underlings "sugartits," and be met with nothing more than the laughter of other managers.  We used to have child labor, asbestos, and a seven-day workweek, too.

Was this part of a pattern of unwanted sexual attention?  An innocent mistake?  Was it unbearably abusive or blown waaaaaaay (or waaaay, or waay, or simply, way) out of proportion?  Should the manager lose his job over this?  You raise the question, and it's a good question -- one that none of us is qualified to answer.  More particularly, should this manager be fired, suspended, given a written warning, required to attend some sensitivity training, put on probation, given an informal warning, or some other (or no) corrective action?  That's a management decision for those in authority in this company to decide, after gathering the facts.  However, if no employee voices their concerns about this manager to HR and/or upper management, how do you propose that be accomplished?

Understood and well put.  Your response is more reasoned than many of the statements above- where the posters here have already tried and convicted the manager.

I don't have a young daughter and this "victim" is no one's "young daughter". She is a woman. If she wants some respect - irrespective of corporate CYA-let'sallsitaroundinacir cleandtalkitout she should speak for herself. From what's been said so far- she has not "run a gauntlet"- this was a first offense in her case. The other female coworkers did NOT report other cases, so they remain undocumented hearsay.

As far as comparing this "abuse" with the risks and discomforts of other jobs, that's a light look of some of the demeaning, arduous, and truly hazardous work that some people find they have to do to put food on the table. I'll stand by it.

In the end- I get it. I work for a large corporation now and yes I had to take sensitivity training and no I don't call people "sugartits." Miraculously, I didn't even call people "sugartits" before I took the sensitivity training.  Yes, I understand that touching a female co worker under any circumstances- even an unintended brush- could be used at any time against me. This is one reason why I cross myself that I do not have to work in an office. My female co workers are really cool people whom I get along with well, so I'm not paranoid. Nevertheless, if I did work in an office environment and if one of my female co workers was of victim age, i can assure you I would not step within a 2' boundary of her and I would never, ever make a joke about anything. I would never, ever, discuss anything outside of work.   To a certain extent, we have created a politically correct work environment in which "anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law". Swell.  




 *fixed quotes -R59

[Kev m]

OK, I've been keeping my mouth shut on this one.

I think Dean/Cindy, Youcan, Pasta have pretty much covered my thoughts.

Boat - I DO ACTUALLY UNDERTAND YOUR OBJECTION - i.e. that we've created a overly politically correct society where it is easy to over-react and/or the ramifications of POSSIBLY innocent actions can get someone in deep doo. I do agree that's a risk.

BUT BUT BUT - I think it is a much greater risk to allow emotional and/or physical abuses of power that comes with authority in the workplace.

I haven't tried and convicted the manager in my mind - EXCEPT that I have taken an acquaintance at his word (and his loved one's word) that this was just one incident in a long pattern of incidents. As such, yeah, I strongly suspect he's guilty as all shyte and that the ladies should pursue this.

[rocker59]

 To a certain extent, we have created a politically correct work environment in which "anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law". Swell.  

Yep.

PC SUCKS!

[jcctx]

Of course the young lady could have just said' no, I prefer to shake hands!!

[oldbike54]

 Hmm , this thread has taken an odd turn  ???

  Dusty

[Kev m]

Of course the young lady could have just said' no, I prefer to shake hands!!

I think it is easy for a man, especially an assertive one, to think that.

But let's read the report again:

As the manager walked up to the gal to hand her the tickets, she said thank you,and held out her hand to shake his hand, at this point the guy opens his arms wide, and  tells her" Women dont shake hands, women hug" he then gave her a hug. after hugging her he states" I am going to make a woman out of you yet!"

1. The young lady TRIED - she stuck out her hand.
2. The MANAGER (her boss, person in position of power) ignored that and then decided to tell HER what "Women" do? (isn't that potentially in and of itself insulting?)
3. Then AFTER hugging her says "I'm going to make a woman out of you"? SERIOUSLY? WTF does that mean in the context of correcting her and hugging her instead of a handshake:

a. Traditional social reference of sex/coming of age into womanhood?
b. I know you're gay, but I'll hug you straight?
c. You're too dumb to know that women hug?
d. You're not a real woman cause you're gay?

Is there an innocent way to interpret those words?

If what we are hearing from a 3rd party witness is even remotely accurate, he crossed the line in multiple ways.

And you have to understand PERSONALLY I think rabid feminists are frickin' nutz and make a big deal of out of crap that they shouldn't.

But I don't get the impression that's what's going on here.

[oldbike54]

 What Kev m said . Let's not spin this into a man hating situation , or "well , she could have..." This guy is a dick .
PC , who gives a flying #$%&, , have yet to figure out what that even means .

  Dusty

[redrider90]

Sexual orientation is not relavent. As a clinical supervisor at a very large medical center I was required to take managerial classes which included sexual harassment.
I told a story in the class that I had experienced and did not know how to handle. I saw a clear violation of sexual harassment take place just 3 feet from me in another department. It was blatantly disgusting. After the event I approached the women who was touched very inappropriately by a man. I told her I saw what happened and that if she needed a witness I would be glad to assist. I was a supervisor  but neither her supervisor nor the man who touched her.
So I told to story during the training session and this was the response I received. 1. I did the only proper thing I could to which was address this woman in private and tell her I would be a witness. I was told it was up to her to take the incident up the chain.
Now if this had happened in my department and the man was under my supervision then I could have written him up.
 

[Kev m]

Sexual orientation is not relavent. As a clinical supervisor at a very large medical center I was required to take managerial classes which included sexual harassment.

In this particular case it is relevant in the fact that it is potentially a subject the manager was bringing up (and if so that just makes his case worse).

[Dean Rose]

Sexual orientation is not relavent. As a clinical supervisor at a very large medical center I was required to take managerial classes which included sexual harassment.
I told a story in the class that I had experienced and did not know how to handle. I saw a clear violation of sexual harassment take place just 3 feet from me in another department. It was blatantly disgusting. After the event I approached the women who was touched very inappropriately by a man. I told her I saw what happened and that if she needed a witness I would be glad to assist. I was a supervisor  but neither her supervisor nor the man who touched her.
So I told to story during the training session and this was the response I received. 1. I did the only proper thing I could to which was address this woman in private and tell her I would be a witness. I was told it was up to her to take the incident up the chain.
Now if this had happened in my department and the man was under my supervision then I could have written him up.
 

That's where the chain of command BROKE. As a supervisor you had the responsibility of your position to ensure that type of behaviour would not be tolerated in the workplace. The victim shouldn't have been asked to report it.  

Dean

[redrider90]

That's where the chain of command BROKE. As a supervisor you had the responsibility of your position to ensure that type of behaviour would not be tolerated in the workplace. The victim shouldn't have been asked to report it.  

Dean

Interesting that you disagree with the managerial training department at Duke University. They told me I acted appropriately and unless the woman wanted to make a claim I had no option. In fact they complimented me on my actions letting the woman know in private that I witnessed the event.  Neither employee was under my supervision. That was the deal breaker. Had it occurred with people who where under my supervision then I could make the call myself and report it. And yes it is up to the woman to report it. If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.
The victim (unless otherwise incapacitated) speaks for themselves.

[bratman2]

Kev pretty much summed up my feelings better than I could post.

As I posted earlier as a salaried employee I am obligated to report any form of abuse even if not directed towards me. If I don't company policy is I condoned the behavior.

That may be Duke University policy but it is definitely not my corporation's policy when it comes to supervisors or above.

[Kev m]

If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.
The victim (unless otherwise incapacitated) speaks for themselves.

I'm NOT sure that example is true.

I don't know if it's the difference between civil and criminal matters, or if some criminal matters are categorized differently etc. But there are definitely cases where it is out of the victim's hands and it's up to the cops and/or DA to pursue a matter.

[Dean Rose]

Interesting that you disagree with the managerial training department at Duke University. They told me I acted appropriately and unless the woman wanted to make a claim I had no option. In fact they complimented me on my actions letting the woman know in private that I witnessed the event.  Neither employee was under my supervision. That was the deal breaker. Had it occurred with people who where under my supervision then I could make the call myself and report it. And yes it is up to the woman to report it. If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.
The victim (unless otherwise incapacitated) speaks for themselves.

I don’t portend to be an expert in law but I disagree with your idea that, “If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.”  I believe that as officers of the court when they know a crime has been committed they are bound by law to act.  Likewise you as a member of management had an obligation to act.  But what you are saying is that Duke University condones sexual harassment unless someone complains. Interesting

[redrider90]

I'm NOT sure that example is true.

I don't know if it's the difference between civil and criminal matters, or if some criminal matters are categorized differently etc. But there are definitely cases where it is out of the victim's hands and it's up to the cops and/or DA to pursue a matter.

Victims of domestic abuse pass all time on pressing charges against their partners and spouses.
Unless someone commits another crime in the process of mugging you then the police cannot charge someone unless Kev M presses charges. If the victim refuses to testify then what is left?

[oldbike54]

Victims of domestic abuse pass all time on pressing charges against their partners and spouses.
Unless someone commits another crime in the process of mugging you then the police cannot charge someone unless Kev M presses charges. If the victim refuses to testify then what is left?

 In cases of domestic abuse ,in many states , OK included , the responding officer presses charges against the guilty party .

  Dusty

[redrider90]

I don’t portend to be an expert in law but I disagree with your idea that, “If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.”  I believe that as officers of the court when they know a crime has been committed they are bound by law to act.  Likewise you as a member of management had an obligation to act.  But what you are saying is that Duke University condones sexual harassment unless someone complains. Interesting

If the woman refused to press charges then anything I say is meaningless. She has to press charges against this guy or there is no case. No one can be fired or disciplined for sexual harassment if their is no victim. So you go ahead and report something you saw and if the person you saw said nothing happened then nothing happened. End of story.  

[Kev m]

Victims of domestic abuse pass all time on pressing charges against their partners and spouses.
Unless someone commits another crime in the process of mugging you then the police cannot charge someone unless Kev M presses charges. If the victim refuses to testify then what is left?

Incorrect (I know this from my cop friends, but I'll add citations because it's a discussion - if police evidence a crime has been committed the partner or spouse will still be arrested on the spot - i.e. if they are called for abuse, and one person has cuts, bruises, or other signs of physical abuse, the partner is arrested no matter what the spouse then wants):

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/can-someone-be-prosecuted-domestic-violence-even-if-v

When Domestic Violence Victims Refuse to Testify
What happens when a person is being prosecuted for committing a domestic violence crime against the person’s spouse, and the spouse invokes the spousal testimonial privilege to avoid testifying about the alleged abuse? Can the defendant still be prosecuted?

The short answer is yes. A prosecutor can continue prosecuting a defendant even though the alleged victim cannot be compelled to testify. Whether the prosecutor will want to go forward with prosecuting a defendant when the alleged victim-spouse invokes the privilege to avoid testifying is another matter.

Is there other evidence?
The prosecutor’s decision of whether to proceed with the prosecution when the alleged victim has invoked the spousal testimonial privilege will often depend on the strength of other evidence in the case. Such evidence may include photographs of the spouse’s injuries, such as bruises, scratches, or black eyes. Even though the defendant’s spouse will not testify, police officers and medical professionals may testify as to any injuries that they observed on the spouse. In some states, witnesses may testify to statements made by the spouse to police, medical providers, and others.

Similarly if there are witnesses to a mugging, theft, etc. it's up to the cops. Hell, think about it, it's not like a murder victim usually gets the chance to "press charges".  ;)

[Kev m]

If the woman refused to press charges then anything I say is meaningless. She has to press charges against this guy or there is no case. No one cannot be fired or disciplined for sexual harassment if their is no victim. So you go ahead and report something you saw and if the person you saw said nothing happened then nothing happened. End of story.  

Yes and No.

As I remember MY sexual harassment training (via ABS/Capitol Cities/Disney) you don't have to be the direct victim for the harassment of others to create a "hostile work environment" for YOU.

Simply witnessing the act, making YOU feel uncomfortable CAN be enough (at least for their corporate policy and their interpretation of the laws).

It can include, but is not limited to, an environment where you feel you are being passed over for promotion or opportunity because you are not the recipient of a manager's inappropriate attention.

[oldbike54]

 Sooo... what this all means is that a swift kick to the guy's huevos might just be the best solution  ;)  Direct , effective , quick . I like chocolate chip  ;D

  Dusty

[Kev m]

Yes and No.

As I remember MY sexual harassment training (via ABS/Capitol Cities/Disney) you don't have to be the direct victim for the harassment of others to create a "hostile work environment" for YOU.

Simply witnessing the act, making YOU feel uncomfortable CAN be enough (at least for their corporate policy and their interpretation of the laws).

It can include, but is not limited to, an environment where you feel you are being passed over for promotion or opportunity because you are not the recipient of a manager's inappropriate attention.

Citations for the above:

http://www.aauw.org/what-we-do/legal-resources/know-your-rights-at-work/workplace-sexual-harassment/

Does Title VII protect men from sexual harassment? What about same-sex harassment?

Anyone, male or female, can be a victim of sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is not limited by gender. The victim or the harasser may be a woman or a man, and her or his victim does not have to be of the opposite sex — a man might harass another man, and a woman might harass another woman.

Additionally, harassers are not always direct supervisors. Behavior may still constitute sexual harassment even if the harasser is a co-worker, a supervisor in another area, or even a person not employed in the victim’s workplace. In fact, a victim of sexual harassment does not necessarily have to be the person directly being harassed; the victim could be an employee who is indirectly but negatively affected by the offensive conduct.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Yes and No.

As I remember MY sexual harassment training (via ABS/Capitol Cities/Disney) you don't have to be the direct victim for the harassment of others to create a "hostile work environment" for YOU.

Simply witnessing the act, making YOU feel uncomfortable CAN be enough (at least for their corporate policy and their interpretation of the laws).

It can include, but is not limited to, an environment where you feel you are being passed over for promotion or opportunity because you are not the recipient of a manager's inappropriate attention.

This is consistent with my training.

[threebrits]

Personally, I take my sexual harassment training from Tom Brady.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/2751966

[redrider90]

In cases of domestic abuse ,in many states , OK included , the responding officer presses charges against the guilty party .

  Dusty

A lot of states do that very thing Dusty. At a minimum it defuses the situation in the short and takes the perp off the street. But even if the woman's nose is pushed in and she has 2 black eyes the perp walks if the the victim refuses to testify. The circle of violence in domestic abuse cases is one the hardest things to break. It is very complex.

[Kev m]

But even if the woman's nose is pushed in and she has 2 black eyes the perp walks if the the victim refuses to testify. The circle of violence in domestic abuse cases is one the hardest things to break. It is very complex.

The perp walking is not an automatic thing (see above reference). But you're right, it's a problem because it makes it much harder to prosecute.

[oldbike54]

A lot of states do that very thing Dusty. At a minimum it defuses the situation in the short and takes the perp off the street. But even if the woman's nose is pushed in and she has 2 black eyes the perp walks if the the victim refuses to testify. The circle of violence in domestic abuse cases is one the hardest things to break. It is very complex.

 Used to be true . Now , at least here , the officer can testify in court based on the evidence W/O the victim being present .

  Dusty

[redrider90]

Yes and No.

As I remember MY sexual harassment training (via ABS/Capitol Cities/Disney) you don't have to be the direct victim for the harassment of others to create a "hostile work environment" for YOU.

Simply witnessing the act, making YOU feel uncomfortable CAN be enough (at least for their corporate policy and their interpretation of the laws).

It can include, but is not limited to, an environment where you feel you are being passed over for promotion or opportunity because you are not the recipient of a manager's inappropriate attention.

There is a difference between sexual harassment that can be tried in a court of law and corporate policy. Sexual harassment can be both civil and criminal. In the case I saw I thought the man clearly violated the women with his hands and body they way he touched her.   Corporate policy may or may not be stricter than legal interpretation of the law. Witnessing sexual harassment is not a civil crime punishable by law. Show me a case where a person has been prosecuted by a witness. If that was true then every single witness of all kinds of crimes could take the perp to court. You witness a murder  does that mean you have the right to take the murderer to court? What are your charges? I saw you shoot somebody and it upset me? I am not being snarky hear but how does a witness become a victim?
Are we talking about the same thing or am I misunderstanding you?

[Dean Rose]

If the woman refused to press charges then anything I say is meaningless. She has to press charges against this guy or there is no case. No one can be fired or disciplined for sexual harassment if their is no victim. So you go ahead and report something you saw and if the person you saw said nothing happened then nothing happened. End of story.  

What you witnessed was battery of a sexual nature. You stated that it was “clear violation of sexual harassment that took place 3 feet from you in another department. It was blatantly disgusting.  It bothered you enough to confront the victim. But because it did not occur in your jurisdiction you were powerless to help her?
You as a supervisor and witness had the responsibility to notify the Office for Institutional Equity of the incident and whoever condoned your inaction also condoned the abuse.
Now imagine your wife or daughter or your mother having to work with that man every day.

[redrider90]

Used to be true . Now , at least here , the officer can testify in court based on the evidence W/O the victim being present .

  Dusty

I am not a lawyer but my understanding is that officer can testify all day long and the defense attorney says your honor where is the victim in this case? If the victim is  incapacitated then the state can press charges for the victim But if like a lot of domestic abuse cases the victim refuse to testify the perp walks. Now if the perp is on probation then they go back to the big house for violation of probation. But that is a different legal matter

[Kev m]

There is a difference between sexual harassment that can be tried in a court of law and corporate policy. Sexual harassment can be both civil and criminal. In the case I saw I thought the man clearly violated the women with his hands and body they way he touched her.   Corporate policy may or may not be stricter than legal interpretation of the law. Witnessing sexual harassment is not a civil crime punishable by law. Show me a case where a person has been prosecuted by a witness. If that was true then every single witness of all kinds of crimes could take the perp to court. You witness a murder  does that mean you have the right to take the murderer to court? What are your charges? I saw you shoot somebody and it upset me? I am not being snarky hear but how does a witness become a victim?
Are we talking about the same thing or am I misunderstanding you?

YES, you're misunderstanding me.

Read the citations I provided to get the gist.

Though, perhaps you inadvertently raised an interesting question.

If someone commits a crime, and I'm witness to said crime, can I sue them for civil damages? I think the answer is maybe... Though good luck collecting.

I think the problem with your original mugging example was that it is criminal and the harassment behavior is generally civil no? I mean it CAN cross into criminal, but generally speaking the creation of a hostile workplace, the unwanted advances alone would generally be considered civil.

But anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but in criminal cases the state NOT THE VICTIM is the plaintiff.

EDIT - to add one more thought. Another big difference between harassment and mugging is that, as one of my citations noted the definition of harassment includes the "creation of a hostile work environment" and though you can't be murdered or mugged indirectly you CAN be part of a hostile work environment without being the direct one harassed.