(Little Guzzi Content) Perception of heights

[Gliderjohn]

Monday and Tuesday I was one of the staff that accompanied 24 students to a "Model UN" conference at Topeka, KS which is our state capital. I had quite a bit of free time and was at a motel about 10 blocks from the capital building. The Kansas capital has just completed a multi year major renovation (it was finished being built in 1904) so I walked over to it and toured it. It really is an impressive building.
Now keep in mind I am a glider pilot, have done spin training in a Pitts Special, and have flown a totally open ultralight and have done a tandem skydive along with riding the Rockies and the Ozarks. That said, I am not at all comfortable being on roofs or any other kind of edges when on foot. At the capital building I had the opportunity to do the 296 steps to the top of the dome on a open spiral staircase. I think I could have handled it physically okay but chickened out. Perception is a weird thing.
GliderJohn

[pressureangle]

I'm totally with you. Parachute, ok. Bungee, no way. I don't like edges. I don't mind freefall but would never base jump.

I've watched this video about a dozen times trying to figure out why I get nervous and sweaty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A_h2AjJaMw

[guzzisteve]

I used to climb farm silo's when I was a kid. Going up was cool, then I was stuck. Skydived in Hinkley, IL w/I was 16.
I got the willies w/ I had to grease the bearings on the top of a grain elevator up on the outside of the leg.
It has something to do w/being connected to the ground for me.

[oldbike54]

 Interesting . Made a few jumps while in the military , would scare the pooh out of me now . Heights don't bother me, as long as there is something to stand on , however , age related balance issues have certainly made me more careful .

  Dusty

[Gliderjohn]

Speaking of silos I grew up a a farm kid. My father up to age 67 would climb to a top of a silo and then inch his way around on a 4" wide edge to the opposite end to tie down the filling tube and then inch back backwards to the ladder shoot. No f$*% way I could do that.
GliderJohn

[pressureangle]

Speaking of silos I grew up a a farm kid. My father up to age 67 would climb to a top of a silo and then inch his way around on a 4" wide edge to the opposite end to tie down the filling tube and then inch back backwards to the ladder shoot. No f$*% way I could do that.
GliderJohn

My Uncle used to take the shortcut, and tightrope the guywire on the unloader. I guess he thought falling 30' into the silage was better than 40' to the concrete.

[guzzisteve]

Nothing like the smell of fermenting silage. Our's was like ceramic tile blocks construction.  

[EldoMike]

I'm totally with you. Parachute, ok. Bungee, no way. I don't like edges. I don't mind freefall but would never base jump.

I've watched this video about a dozen times trying to figure out why I get nervous and sweaty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A_h2AjJaMw

I can't even watch it...can't even imagine doing it :o

[charlie b]

I have never been bothered by heights, as long as I have a firm hold on something.

Just walking to an edge...no.  I have slipped too many times, or had wind gusts upset my balance.  If I have to go to the edge of something it is on my belly or holding onto an anchored rope, tree, guard rail, etc.

[Carlo DeSantis]

I can't even watch it...can't even imagine doing it :o

I kinda cringed all the way through.  I've seen videos of the guys that service the towers atop the Hancock and Sears (I know it's technically Willis) and was astounded.  This video, however, is on an entirely different plane.

Best,

Carlo

[Testarossa]

When I teach skiing I often deal with perceptions of height, steeps, speed. People who are happy to go 80 in a cage and 20 on a bike sometimes get nervous at 10mph on skis. I think it's a matter of traction and balance. You may be perfectly comfortable about exposure sitting down, but on your feet all sorts of insecurities about balance and traction arise.

And (I think I've mentioned this before) among my students there are issues of visual skills. This wouldn't apply to motorcyclists, but a lot of people who work on computers all day seem to lose some of their peripheral vision skills, the skills used to judge speed. I recommend they retrain by riding a bike a couple of times a week.

[LowRyter]

I remember the first time I drove over that bridge west of Taos NM in 1978.   I stopped to walk on it.  I could not get within 20 ft of taking a step onto the walk way. 

Since that time, I've walked over it several times.  But the first time, I was totally startled when I saw the depths of the canyon.  Now when I visit, I am prepared for it and it's not a big deal.

[kirby1923]

I know many pilots that have  anxiety about heights even parachutes. Its is thought that its probably related to being "in control" of your situation.
In an aircraft we are confident of being in control so the anxiety is low.

As a kid I did rock climbing and all manner of crazy stuff without much thought, however today I steer clear of high places.
Having said that, when young we just don't realize that we could actually get hurt doing some of these things.

mike   :-)  

[Carlo DeSantis]

I know many pilots that have  anxiety about heights even parachutes. Its is thought that its probably related to being "in control" of your situation.

As I was reading the couple or three replies just before this one, I wondered the same thing: that it might be a (lack of) control issue.  I think it is for me.

Best,

Carlo

[Tobit]

I skydived in High School as part of the club but never after that.  Heights don't really bother me, maybe having no depth perception helps.

One thing about heights and people gettind the willies I'm curious about though.  Why does looking at an object 100' away not bother, but looking down 100' instill fear?  Internal wiring?  Unfamiliar perspective?  Self preservation?  Sense of control?  I can walk to the object 100' away and be fine but if I fall 100' I'll be dead?

So we ride motorcycles.  I can ride at what would be terminal velocity of a stable free-fall, about 110mph, toward that object 10,000' away, (confident in the notion that I can stop before hitting it or veer around it) but free-falling 10,000' into whatever device that would save me (sta-puf marshmallow man?  Parachute?)  Would cause cardiac arrest now.

Tobit

[kirby1923]

I'd wager that the fear of "falling" is hard wired in the human condition and maybe other bio's as well. Maybe if you learn to control your anxiety of same, you can deal with it, kinda like your sure of the outcome and confident that all is well.

But as I get older and wiser?? I have classified certain things as not good for an old body. However in the operation of machines that roll fly or float I still have a bit of bravado that allows me to test my limits because I feel in control.

Still not completely comfortable in the back of the car, bus, boat, aircraft!

mike :-)

[oldbike54]

 Kirby , yeah , most likely a fear of falling is hardwired . Interesting how most humans can climb up a ladder with very little fear , while the descent can be uncomfortable . Like you , flying , at least when allowed to sit up front in a fixed wing AC never bothered me , helicopters on the other hand, scare the dickens out of me . Of course , some of that may be conditioning  :D

  Dusty

[Testarossa]

Interesting how most humans can climb up a ladder with very little fear , while the descent can be uncomfortable .

I've no doubt that this is because, going up, you can see your hands above you grasping the rungs, but have trouble watching your feet feeling for the rungs going down. For this reason rock climbers are comfortable moving upward, but will rappel down a rope rather than down-climb.

[oldbike54]

I've no doubt that this is because, going up, you can see your hands above you grasping the rungs, but have trouble watching your feet feeling for the rungs going down. For this reason rock climbers are comfortable moving upward, but will rappel down a rope rather than down-climb.

 Probably a contributing factor , and maybe looking up instead of down doesn't trigger the fear of falling reaction .
I remember reading in some book about advanced riding techniques that for some reason humans are more comfortable doing risky activities while leading with their heads  ;D

  Dusty

[Gliderjohn]

It is also interesting that some people are very uncomfortable leaning a bike much and there certainly are pilots that do not like to bank a plane much in a turn especially close to the ground. I love steep banking in a plane, not quite so much on a bike due to that nagging feeling that the bike is going to go out from under me and I am down. As long as I have altitude under me I can recover without pain from screwing up banking a aircraft.
GliderJohn

[guzzitime]

I consider myself a reasonably courageous person ( Discretion is the better part of valor), but there ain't no way I would ever do that. :beat_horse

[Testarossa]

John, I hope you never experience an accelerated stall in the pattern. Also, I once rescued a glider pilot from an upside-down landing. His tow-rope broke at 100 feet on climb-out and he tried to turn back to the field. Caught a wingtip and cartwheeled, and lacerated his scalp when his head shattered the canopy. When I got to him he was hanging upside down in the harness and I was drenched in blood extricating him.

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from Testarossa:

John, I hope you never experience an accelerated stall in the pattern.

Neither do I want too. As I said "at altitude". Have practiced many a simulated rope break. If not at least 200 ft above ground, no turn back plus we have plenty of open fields off the ends of the runway. If you turn back get the nose down quick and hard to pick up speed then bank.
GliderJohn

[normzone]

Wow.

Rode my bicycle across the Golden Gate Bridge once. Made myself stop and hang my head over the edge and look down - what a feeling.

Rode my Kawasaki H2 across it once in a storm, wind and rain. The bridge was swaying back and forth, and it was slippery as well. Memorable experience.

Used to love working on a scaffold 2 or 3 stories up - find climbing two stories of ladder an experience now.

Wish I had some of the flight / skydiving experience you guys do - I wish I'd discovered base diving in my thirties, not in my forties. Whine...

[Testarossa]

Some decades ago I was doing a Form 5 ride in a C182. At 400 feet on takeoff the check pilot reached across and pulled the keys out of the mag switch. I turned 180 and landed on a taxiway. That night I got curious about what might have happened if I'd tried a steep turn to reach the runway at that speed. Next day I climbed to 5000 feet AGL, set up 85 knots and pulled a 45 degree bank. I spun, and took 1500 feet to recover.

[Gliderjohn]

Keep in mind that when doing a check ride in a glider in our club you are in a 2-33 which has a cruise speed of 45mph and a stall speed of around 28. On tow behind a 182 you are already going around 65 so if you get a rope break you are already double your stall speed so if you immediately keep the nose down you can safely do a 45-60 degree bank if needed.
GliderJohn

[Bob Wegman]

When I joined the fire dept. one of the first training drills was climbing the 100' aerial ladder to the top in the unsupported (not near a building or other structure) position, hook in your safety belt and lean back without holding on to the rungs.  This was said to develop your trust in your equipment.  If I didn't need the job as bad as I did I would have walked away at that time.   :o

[Cam3512]

That's insane.  You couldn't pay me a million a year to do that job.

[Bill Havins]

There is a large body of research about humans' "visual cliff" instinct.  (edit:  I should have related this to "fear of falling" when I originally posted this - now I feel better.)  Without knowing it, we have all seen the "visual cliff" effect/instinct demonstrated by infants who are accomplished crawlers/creepers.  Briefly, when they are placed on an unfamiliar floor and allowed to roam, they will come to a quick halt when they arrive at a transition in the floorcovering.  The instinct is extremely strong when the transition is from a patterned and/or rough flooring (wood, carpet, etc.) to a flooring that is shiny or that gives no visual clues that it is solid.  The youngster may sit at the transition and, when given time, reach across the transition and pat the new surface with one hand.  Those who are pretty bold may eventually cross the transition and try it out.  Those who are not so bold may turn around and "flee."

If the creeper/crawler sees another person out on the shiny/no-depth-clues floor (especially if it is "Mom") they may hesitantly cross the transition and quickly move across the floor to the other person.  If they get picked up by the person, they may look down at the floor as if they are trying to figure out just what is holding them up.

The instinct loses some of its significance as we grow older (and taller!) and begin to use visual cues (other than the texture and shine of the floor) to make sense of our environment.  But it returns in full force in the mid-to-later stages of dementia.  In an Alzheimer's treatment unit a floor transition from carpet to tile can often prevent patients from walking into the Nurses' Station when it is unoccupied.

The "visual cliff" instinct is one of the best protection mechanisms we have.  People who haven't experienced it for many, many years can find themselves filled with anxiety when they are at the edge of the Grand Canyon, or having to cross an open-mesh catwalk, etc.  We can reduce the anxiety associated with it by "training the anxiety away."  But some of the anxiety will always be there.  The training may not "generalize," either - if the person is confronted with a "visual cliff" that was not included in their training the anxiety may return in full force.

The "visual cliff" is a basic instinct/effect.  Kinda' like grinning when you twist the throttle on your Guzzi.   ;)

[donn]

I suspect that's why many people are less comfortable at the edge of a precipice, than in an airplane.  I mean, even if you're inside but have the opportunity to look down through a thick glass window, the view down from a tall building presents a dizzying perspective issue - we're used to level surfaces receding away from us, and the vertical surface that looks like that is disorienting.  I don't know if that perspective orientation is part of what you're calling "visual cliff", but if you have two orientation faculties - visual and inner ear, and the visual faculty is effective enough that many people can get around fine who would fall over with their eyes closed - and the two are suddenly thrown into conflict, it's no wonder people say they're afraid they'll pitch over the side.