Looking for information on the new California's

[LowRyter]

One of the things I've noticed about drive-by-wire autos and ride-by-wire motorcycles is that they lack immediate response and actually have a dead feel just off the idle stop.  It's a feeling I'm sure I could get used to, but I sure don't like it.

I've noticed it driving Chevrolet Suburbans back to back, one with and one without throttle-by-wire.

I've also noticed it on Harley-Davidson, Indian, and Moto Guzzi motorcycles with ride-by-wire, that I've tested.

It's always nice to get back on my old Guzzi with an actual throttle cable that has instant response and no computer nanny.

Like I said, I'm sure I could get used to the dead throttle response of the late model vehicles.  I'm sure I will have to some day.  

But, from my experience so far, I would not think of the word "immediate" when thinking of throttle by wire...

some ride by wire are really good like the Guzzi, Indian & HD.  Some are horrific like the 2014 Yamaha fz9.

[mjptexas]

As far as throttle goes, every throttle-by-wire vehicle I've driven/ridden has had funny lag.  Don't know why, but it has a different feel from a cable, and I don't really like it. 

Interesting.

The two ride by wire bikes I own (Cali 1400 & Monster 821) both have very nice and smooth throttle response.

[lucian]

I guess what I am trying to say is , more weight , more inertia, so more force trying to break traction under various instances . It certainly makes no sense to me, that's why I keep the traction control on . Is there a scientist in the house ?

[Kev m]

I guess what I am trying to say is , more weight , more inertia, so more force trying to break traction under various instances . It certainly makes no sense to me, that's why I keep the traction control on . Is there a scientist in the house ?

I don't see why inertia changes the formula. Inertia will just be proportional to weight.

You've still got the power-to-weight ratio handicap to overcome either way if you're going to break a tire loose beside of power.

Now inertia may come into play during BRAKING, but now you're talking ABS and not TC.

[lucian]

Ok how about this one. While a lighter bike with equal power will be quicker to accelerate, you will be more likely over apply power to the heavier bike to achieve the same goal. Thus more likely to need tc. I love this crap!

[Kev m]

Ok how about this one. While a lighter bike with equal power will be quicker to accelerate, you will be more likely over apply power to the heavier bike to achieve the same goal. Thus more likely to need tc. I love this crap!

I don't buy it.

Just look at motorcycle drags.

It's much harder to launch a Sportbike with a standard swingarm without wheel spin because of the higher power-to-weight ratio and short wheelbase.

The Cal 14 has two significant advantages over them to help prevent wheel spin before you activate the TC.

UNLESS there's a previously undiscovered design flaw, like insufficient weight over the rear, and I don't think that's the case.

[lucian]

So essentially both bikes should have tc    no ?

[oldbike54]

I don't buy it.

Just look at motorcycle drags.

It's much harder to launch a Sportbike with a standard swingarm without wheel spin because of the higher power-to-weight ratio and short wheelbase.

The Cal 14 has two significant advantages over them to help prevent wheel spin before you activate the TC.

UNLESS there's a previously undiscovered design flaw, like insufficient weight over the rear, and I don't think that's the case.

 Kev m , the wheelie prone nature of sport bikes is more of the limiting factor . As for TC's relative effectiveness on heavy/light bikes , if a heavy bike actually
has enough power to need TC , excepting low traction conditions , a long heavy bike might be harder to catch than a light one .

  Dusty

[Kev m]

True wheelie is the greater risk, but wheel spin plays a part too.

I guess you see it the most though on Sportbikes powering out of a corner still leaned over.

[Jerryd]

I spoke to Moto Guzzi headquarters this morning, and they will have the same bikes on display that they had during Bike Week at the Moto GP in Austin 4/10-12.
So there's your chance to try the 1400 and see what it does for yourself. Rather then a lot of theroretical speculation ;)

Unfortunately, there are no plans to bring the Eldorado to the States in 2015. But like anything with MG, that could change.

[Kev m]

Easy to get more power ---  not really,   cheap to get more power  ----  not really,  will you like it as well after you spend $2,500.00 in performance  ----   good chance you won't.   The H-D engine give up nothing for free.  You want more on top ----  you always trade off power on the bottom.  No getting around it.   H-D made it impossible to lower the primary gearing on the bikes after 2007 and that is the problem with trying to get more power.  If you boost top power and loose on the bottom you find the gearing is way too tall.   Harley is known as a V-Twin but it is really a big single with a helper cylinder.
Kevin I know you have fond memories of your old RK, unfortunately they don't make-em that way anymore.  Time marches on and things change.
I make this point for one simple but I believe HUGE difference in all the bikes talked about here.  Among the lot of bike we are talking about the Guzzi is the ONLY bike that is geared right.  At some point the dyno is meaningless and we are left with how the bike transmits what our right hand tells the rear wheel to do.  When the gearing is right that relationship is comfortable and intuitive. When the gearing is wrong you are left rowing the piss out of the gearbox keeping the bike in the correct range of torque to maintain control.  

No Waltr, I'm not talking about my 96 Weber-Marelli open-loop EFI RK.

Please read my post again. I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about the 2007 to CURRENT models with dual-02 sensor systems (like, but not limited to my 07 EFI Sportster).

I repeat, starting that year they left 50 state street legal power on the table which could be gained WITHOUT A REMAP.

For just the cost of 50-state/street legal accessory Screaming Eagle Mufflers (a couple of hundred bucks), you can pick up (I looked up the original article) approx 3% more hp / 7 % more torque on the TC96 motors, or 8 % more hp / 17 % more torque on the 1200 Sportsters.

If you go with an air cleaner and recalibration (and then you're still at or below $1k for that even with a dealer reflash, or you can pick up a PowerVision and have complete access to your maps for only a few hundred more) then you're looking at LEAST 12% more HP / 7% more torque on the TC96, or 15 % more hp / 22 % more torque on the Sportster.

Those are cheap and easy.

Yeah, you can spend more, and start talking about cams, headwork, etc. and it's real easy to spend $2500+ going that way, and personally I think that's generally a mistake if you want a long term reliable machine. You want a 90-100 rwhp Sportster, it's not difficult at all, it starts with a call Hammer or NRHS, but I wasn't talking about that.

As for gearing, I wouldn't have minded a 6-speed in the Sporty, but it's fine. The 6-speeds I've ridden on late-model BTs have equally not been a problem or required all that much rowing.

[LowRyter]

Jerry, is MG going to have test rides at COTA or AF1?

[old guy]

howdy,  new to this type of site.  found it while searching for MPG for 2014 california 1400 cc.  first fill up after buying .. 24 MPG. (all data will be in USA terms) i just thought the dealership didn't top off tank.  next fill up, 24 MPG.  i am a old guy and ride like one.  during breaking in, i never went over 3,500 RPM's and the first 600 miles, 90% was done on city surface streets.  mileage was always mid 20's MPG.  after first service ... rode to a moto guzzi club gathering in winters, california, USA.  a little over 100 miles round trip and 80% was interstate hi-way at 65 MPH.  mileage was 35 MPG.  also own two harelys and a triumph thunderbird.  all are 2012 and bought new.  harleys are ulta classic 103 cu in.  and 1200 cc sportster model 72.  will ride over the triumph to next month's meeting and then post the results.  haven't checked the mileage in some time on other bikes, but if memory serves me right ... at least mid 30's in town and over 40 on hi-ways.  i have gotten as high as mid 50's with sportster on interstate riding.  thanks for listening.  ride safe and be safe, the old guy.     

[Waltr]

  Does not matter, I stand by my statement that the gearing on the California suits the engine to a T. The gearing on everything else suits the EPA to a T. I had older Harley's and I had a 2007 Ultra and it is the gearing is lacking on the later bikes, Indian and Victory included.

[rocker59]

howdy,  new to this type of site.  found it while searching for MPG for 2014 california 1400 cc.  first fill up after buying .. 24 MPG. (all data will be in USA terms) i just thought the dealership didn't top off tank.  next fill up, 24 MPG.  i am a old guy and ride like one.  during breaking in, i never went over 3,500 RPM's and the first 600 miles, 90% was done on city surface streets.  mileage was always mid 20's MPG.  after first service ... rode to a moto guzzi club gathering in winters, california, USA.  a little over 100 miles round trip and 80% was interstate hi-way at 65 MPH.  mileage was 35 MPG.  also own two harelys and a triumph thunderbird.  all are 2012 and bought new.  harleys are ulta classic 103 cu in.  and 1200 cc sportster model 72.  will ride over the triumph to next month's meeting and then post the results.  haven't checked the mileage in some time on other bikes, but if memory serves me right ... at least mid 30's in town and over 40 on hi-ways.  i have gotten as high as mid 50's with sportster on interstate riding.  thanks for listening.  ride safe and be safe, the old guy.     

Welcome.

Sportsters are known for thier really good fuel economy.  My last Evo Sportster would return low 50s on the highway at 60-65 mph.

Fuel Injected Big Block Guzzis are not known for thier good fuel economy.  Everyone I've owned has returned mostly mid- to high-30s.

Keep in mind that the Guzzi engine will do better at RPMs above 3,500.  There are other discussions on the topic on this forum, but don't be afraid to run it on up the scale.

As mentioned, the bike will break in.  I've heard other reports of 20s mpg on some Cal 14s when new, but most reports talk of fuel economy in the mid-30s.

Use our search feature.  There are several really good threads on the California 1400.

[Kev m]

 Does not matter, I stand by my statement that the gearing on the California suits the engine to a T. The gearing on everything else suits the EPA to a T. I had older Harley's and I had a 2007 Ultra and it is the gearing is lacking on the later bikes, Indian and Victory included.

That's fine, I stand by my statement. I find no problem with Harley, Indian, or Victory gearing.

BTW, when did epa standards change to start measuring motorcycles in gear/under load?

[rocker59]

That's fine, I stand by my statement. I find no problem with Harley, Indian, or Victory gearing.

BTW, when did epa standards change to start measuring motorcycles in gear/under load?

Noise emissions are tested with a 55mph drive-by, in additon to some static testing, to earn the 80db stamp that's on your OEM exhaust.

[Waltr]

Noise emissions are tested with a 55mph drive-by, in additon to some static testing, to earn the 80db stamp that's on your OEM exhaust.

Thanks Rocker I meant noise testing not EPA.

[Waltr]

 As far as gearing, anytime a bike will go faster in 5'th than is sixth I just may get the slightest little idea  the gearing may not be optimum.

[Kev m]

As far as gearing, anytime a bike will go faster in 5'th than is sixth I just may get the slightest little idea  the gearing may not be optimum.

Well, that doesn't mean that 6th isn't still good for a highway overdrive under the right conditions.

And that doesn't mean the rest of the ratios are wrong.

Hell, couldn't you say the same about the gearing on late-model Tonti Calis...some were HELLA tall at the top end too.

[Waltr]

Well, that doesn't mean that 6th isn't still good for a highway overdrive under the right conditions.

But other times it is just a nuisance.

And that doesn't mean the rest of the ratios are wrong.
 
Well not totally but close.

Hell, couldn't you say the same about the gearing on late-model Tonti Calis...some were HELLA tall at the top end too.

My point exactly, just because the late Tonti's were geared too tall doen't give them a pass just because they were a Guzzi.  Even so the engines did work over a much larger rpm range so you could just keep then in a lower gear and the engines liked the rpm's.

[mtiberio]

to maximize speed, you need to match your peak horsepower rpm to exactly the right speed. Since resistance goes up with the square of velocity, this can be tricky (the curve is rapidly sweeping up). Add in head winds or tail winds, and you can see it is hit or miss. Cruising in top gear is often more a function of comfort. You typically want the lowest RPM for a given cruising speed without lugging the motor. This is rarely the optimum gear to meet the criteria of maximizing speed. This is why more often than not most vehicles are faster in 4th gear than 5th...

[Waltr]

to maximize speed, you need to match your peak horsepower rpm to exactly the right speed. Since resistance goes up with the square of velocity, this can be tricky (the curve is rapidly sweeping up). Add in head winds or tail winds, and you can see it is hit or miss. Cruising in top gear is often more a function of comfort. You typically want the lowest RPM for a given cruising speed without lugging the motor. This is rarely the optimum gear to meet the criteria of maximizing speed. This is why more often than not most vehicles are faster in 4th gear than 5th...

I do agree.  In some ways your reference to engine performance + gearing makes my point even stronger. ( BEFORE WE GO SIDEWAYS HERE WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MOST VEHICLES OR VEHICLES IN GENERAL)  Harley is not the ONLY over geared bike out there. It suffers though from the SMALLEST usable (sweet spot) power band. By nature it is a big single cylinder with the rear cylinder working as a helper. If you dispute this ask people whose H-D kicked in to 'Parade Mode' if they even noticed the loss of the rear cylinder at lower speeds and low throttle demand.  I am not really  ragging on the bike just attempting to describe it for what it is.  Guzzi in contrast has a power band double the rpm of the Harley.  It would be interesting to do a comparison of MG, H-D, Indian, Victory and Kawasaki (the big Touring bike)  in a 60-100 MPH roll on top gear.  I suspect the Indian would jump ahead initially but would not hold the lead for long.  The next thing I will probably hear that this is unfair because the California 1400 has more horsepower,  well..............

[oldbike54]

 Walt r , let's examine your hypothesis . The real contributing factors involved here are bore/stroke ratios , valve sizes , cam timing , and the limitations placed on the HD's engine by the 45 degree V angle . The main reason why the engines remain smooth when the rear cylinder cuts out are the excellent rubber mounting system , and big old flywheels . Simply put , the really narrow operating range of the HD is a design limitation , not because the rear cylinder isn't doing its part . Rev that engine a bit W/O the rear cylinder firing and it will become a paint shaker .

  Dusty

[mtiberio]

My road king has EITMS (emergency idle temperature management system), and when enabled and engaged, you cannot drive in that mode. It only kicks in when you are stopped, and as soon as you try to pull away, the rear cylinder kicks back on. Oh you might be able to stall it if you are a bit too hastly with the clutch, because the cpu gets a bit confused turning the rear cylinder ignition back on while simultaneously dropping the pair back to a normal idle. I suspect you could feel the difference if it would let you, but you cannot "drive" with the back cylinder turned off (unless of course you pull the ignition wire).

[Waltr]

  Dusty,  when I picked up my new 2007 Ultra I had a rear spark plug wire go bad within 25 miles from the shop.  The engine light came on and the bike was down on power.  It was not a paint shaker by any means.
  As far as the emergency temp management system that would explain things. I did know how it worked, my 2007 did not have it.  I cannot remember who the long time industry performance guy was who coined the term"single cylinder with a helper" was but the term stuck with me. His contention was the rear cyl did not produce the same power as the front because to do so they would have even worse cooling problems than they do now. 
  I get it. But if some want to defend the poor old Motor Company go for it.  If anyone thinks an Emergency Temp. Management System is good engineering, go for it. Certainly cheaper than proper cooling, but I ain't buying though.  Maybe I haven't been around Moto Guzzi long enough to develop a subconscious disdain for the brand. I certainly do not want to be a fly in anyone's ointment here.  I respect this forum and it's contributors. 

[oldbike54]

 Walt , I'm mostly neutral re motorcycle brands , they are just companies vying for our business . Wasn't defending or attacking the MoCo . although not really a fan of their products . Some of that may be based not on the product , rather the culture involved . Give me the denizens of the Guzzi world , little or no pretense, nothing to prove , funny around a camp fire  :BEER:

  Dusty

[Kev m]

The system wasn't necessary for decades. Even today the system is only for sitting at idle and predominantly for rider comfort.

I've sat in literally hours of traffic in extreme summer traffic and not had a problem. And I've gotten more uncomfortable from the heat coming off my old Breva 1100 than I've ever gotten off my Harleys.

[Kev m]

PS, I'll have to double check, but I'm pretty sure your 07 had the system, but it was automatic and seemingly never actuated by your usage. I'm pretty sure they changed it to allow rider activation in later years.

[Waltr]

 My '12 Norge is the coolist running bike I ever rode, but I know that was not the case with the 2 valve's.  I even removed the black covers from the top back of the valve cover area, no heat.
  Peace out Dusty.   God I cannot wait for summer.

Kevin I do not know how close to Ephrata, PA you are but the First Sunday monthly rally at the American Legion can be a blast. Lots of bikes of all type to look at. One year I saw a Mr. Turbo Honda CBX parked next to a Norton Commando parked next to a near stock Panhead.
https://www.facebook.com/EphrataFirstSundayMotorcycleRally