Author Topic: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?  (Read 2215 times)

Offline organfixsing

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Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« on: May 22, 2017, 01:48:29 AM »
Anyone have any ideas about apparent unequal fuelling to left & right cylinders. This is in regard to a V7II with the single throttle body, MIUG3 and Y manifold.
The left muffler has carbon on its outlet and the right muffler has not, suggesting to me that the left cylinder is running richer than the right cylinder.
I have wiped the carbon off and it comes back after a bit of a ride..
The spark plugs in both cylinder look about the same but I haven't done a plug chop at road going revs.
Any clues people?

Cheers
Brian  :huh:
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Offline Socalrob

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2017, 03:53:08 AM »
Anyone have any ideas about apparent unequal fuelling to left & right cylinders. This is in regard to a V7II with the single throttle body, MIUG3 and Y manifold.
The left muffler has carbon on its outlet and the right muffler has not, suggesting to me that the left cylinder is running richer than the right cylinder.
I have wiped the carbon off and it comes back after a bit of a ride..
The spark plugs in both cylinder look about the same but I haven't done a plug chop at road going revs.
Any clues people?

Cheers
Brian  :huh:

I would check for an air leak on the intake of one side or the other.


Offline organfixsing

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2017, 05:57:20 AM »
Yes, thank you Socalrob. That is a worthwie check. It could only be a clamp ring not tight enough. I will check in the morning.
Thanks
Brian  :grin:
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Offline pete roper

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2017, 06:59:59 AM »
(Urgh......) my understanding of *some* parts of this is fairly sophomoric, on others it is quite good. I can try and explain if you like and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I screw up too badly but I'm willing to give it a shot if you're interested?

Pete

Online oldbike54

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2017, 07:02:51 AM »
 We're all ears Pete .

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Offline Socalrob

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2017, 10:00:02 AM »
(Urgh......) my understanding of *some* parts of this is fairly sophomoric, on others it is quite good. I can try and explain if you like and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I screw up too badly but I'm willing to give it a shot if you're interested?

Pete

With a setup like that expectations are high.

Online John A

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2017, 11:04:06 AM »
I think there is an inherent difference between left and right, which I have wondered about after looking at a Sonny Angel single carb setup last century. Weather that difference is because of the way the carb was attached or the engine rotation and the timing of the events is stuck in the back of my head as a question. Lay it on me, Pete :popcorn:
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 12:28:04 PM »
No fuel goes through the air control it has L & R injectors, O2 sensors adjust some if you have 2.
I would check the sensor on the rich side, limits are in the Service Man.
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Offline organfixsing

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2017, 02:06:53 AM »
Very interested Pete.
GuzziSteve, the EGOs are turned off and the map for both cylinders is the same.
In repying, it gives me an idea and I will check the mapping again in case there is a left/right correction table.Cheers and thanks,
Brian  :bow: :grin:
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Offline organfixsing

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2017, 02:28:28 AM »
Just checked the mapping and the only thing that may affect the difference between the two cylinders (apart from the left cylinder manifold being longer than the right) could be a table labelled "Ignition Delta" which hs some variance at TPS 3 to 18, RPM 1350 to 3750. I am reluctant to mess with ignition without dyno access.
Cheers
Brian  :bow: :grin:
If you remove the wings of a fly, does that make it a walk?

beetle

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2017, 02:44:19 AM »
the map for both cylinders is the same.


If that's the case, then that is the problem. Left and right fuel maps should be different.

Offline organfixsing

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2017, 06:01:45 AM »
gday beetle, I am attempting to  learning? Why? They are the same size cylinders, the only difference being the length of the left manifold compared to the right manifold.
I had this phenomenem before when the fuelling maps were not equal and this is why I tried to sort out what is wrong with the setup?
Cheers

Brian :grin:
If you remove the wings of a fly, does that make it a walk?

Offline pete roper

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2017, 06:08:58 AM »
Sorry, I've been busy with other stuff but it looks like the bloke with knowledge has stepped up to the plate so I'll just shut up... :laugh:

Pete

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2017, 06:51:18 AM »
Since the ignition is 270 degree apart, the backpulses in the exhaust influence the other cylinder not the same at every speed. The pulsing system has resonances and frequencies where things work better or worse. The ecu has correction maps for right, compared to the left. All have it for fuel, some have it for ignition too. 
The same to a smaller amount counts for for a single tb intake.

For the MUI ecu of v7/v9 I'm still not certain what map is what. Just by trail and error that can be found out. But I don't have a v7 to try. The try would be to flatten or raise one map and see how it works out. Best with oscilloscope to measure pulse duration. Meinolf made this exercise to the extreme with a 15m ecu.
Paul

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beetle

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2017, 06:52:34 AM »
gday beetle, I am attempting to  learning? Why? They are the same size cylinders, the only difference being the length of the left manifold compared to the right manifold.
I had this phenomenem before when the fuelling maps were not equal and this is why I tried to sort out what is wrong with the setup?


So let me get this straight. You copied one map to the other?  Because the cylinders are the same, except for the right inlet length? Right? I presume you still have the fuel-engine-temp correction table that you modified by changing the values 0.94/0.98 to 1.0, naively believing a value of 1.0 has no effect? You also believed that the warm-up table is not used.

You should be very careful, because you don't seem to understand how fuel injection works. Or indeed, even how engines work.

FFS, don't fiddle with the ignition delta. You'll end making things worse.

I'm not going to spoon feed you. The inlet length difference does have an effect, but it's the exhaust that has the most affect. Put the maps back they way they were. It's not the cause of the problem.

Offline organfixsing

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2017, 08:25:52 PM »
Beetle, I have proved that the warmup table is definitely used. If you put the values as zero in the warmup table, the motor will not start, no fuel to the motor.
I believe, however that the Engine temperature correction table is a fuel multiplying factor, not an additive factor and, therefore, 0.98 will affect the whole fuel table on both cylinders.
To my way of thinking, this table is the electronic equivalent of the automatic choke that was fitted to cars in the days of carburettors.
 A bi-metal spring heated by the exhaust manifold controlled the choke quite successfully in those days.

I most certainly will not be touching the Ignition tables as I don't have access to a dyno. The ignition tables can cause horrendously expensive problems if they are wrong.
I will be returning to the original fueling tables since the idea of equal tables did not change the symptom to any extent.
Now I just wonder what would happen if the balance pipe were not there at all. Would this affect the fueling on each cylinder?
Conundrum?
Cheers
Brian  :grin: :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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beetle

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Re: Left & Right Cylinder fuelling?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2017, 08:40:22 PM »
Beetle, I have proved that the warmup table is definitely used. If you put the values as zero in the warmup table, the motor will not start, no fuel to the motor.

This just proves my point.


Quote
I believe, however that the Engine temperature correction table is a fuel multiplying factor, not an additive factor and, therefore, 0.98 will affect the whole fuel table on both cylinders.

A revelation!

Quote
To my way of thinking, this table is the electronic equivalent of the automatic choke that was fitted to cars in the days of carburettors.

Wrong.


Quote
I most certainly will not be touching the Ignition tables as I don't have access to a dyno. The ignition tables can cause horrendously expensive problems if they are wrong.
I will be returning to the original fueling tables since the idea of equal tables did not change the symptom to any extent.

I recommend you undo everything you've done to the map. Then don't touch it again.


Quote
Now I just wonder what would happen if the balance pipe were not there at all. Would this affect the fueling on each cylinder?


 :rolleyes:


Quote
Conundrum?


No.

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