The mysterious Marvel

[oldbike54]

To avoid detonation on a less than optimum combustion chamber design?

 Are we talking LM motors , hot rod SBs , or just regular Cali engines ? Never had a Cali ping on 87 , even in 100 degree weather .

  Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

Are we talking LM motors , hot rod SBs , or just regular Cali engines ? Never had a Cali ping on 87 , even in 100 degree weather .

  Dusty

LMs. So far, I've been running premium in the Aero Lario, too.. but probably being over cautious.

[kevdog3019]

So getting back to the Marvel; are we saying it's raising (very slightly) the octane, not lowering, correct?


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[Chuck in Indiana]

So getting back to the Marvel; are we saying it's raising (very slightly) the octane, not lowering, correct?


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Neither. It's a lubricant.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Neither. It's a lubricant.

Lubricant and solvent?

[Mike Tashjian]

Oil in the fuel will lower the Octane rating. As long as you are not putting much in, I can't see a problem with using it.  Mike

[charlie b]

Charlie , I think Premium fuel only has less energy than 87 octane if it uses ethanol to achieve the higher rating . My understanding is that gasoline produces 117,000 BTUs per gallon , and ethanol 67,000 BTUs . Other than that , yes , you are correct . One thing about lower octane fuels is that they will ignite easier , that is probably why in a low CR engine they make a bit more power .

  Dusty

The tests I referred to were before ethanol.

The lab tests we did were with a test engine,  variable compression ratio.  At any one compression ratio the lower octane fuel made more power, unless there was pinging.  If the lower octane fuel caused pinging then the higher octane fuel would make more power.

This was all a very slim margin. 5% maybe.

[oldbike54]

The tests I referred to were before ethanol.

The lab tests we did were with a test engine,  variable compression ratio.  At any one compression ratio the lower octane fuel made more power, unless there was pinging.  If the lower octane fuel caused pinging then the higher octane fuel would make more power.

This was all a very slim margin. 5% maybe.

 That is interesting . Seems as though I have read something that also confirmed your test results , lots of urban myths regarding octane . Once again , lower octane gasoline ignites easier than higher octane , so while the energy contained is the same , it would be easier to extract same the energy .
 As for using a bit of MMO , or any "top" oil , I know that older 2 stroke engines will make a bit more power on higher oil/gasoline ratios because of better ring seal, don't know if that would also apply to 4 stroke engines , modern ring and cylinder designs being so good .

  Dusty

[kevdog3019]

I'm not trying to pull anything more out of the engine by using this stuff, just find it interesting the idle went up a tad.  This happened also the one time I had lower octane in my other lario, so...

This is more an experiment and figure a little extra lube (and solvent) for the top end and carbs can't hurt.  Makes sense to me at least as long as there isn't detrimental running affects.

[Triple Jim]

Here's another bit of information, Kevdog:  In the 2-stroke world, it's known that oil in gasoline replaces some of the gasoline.  That is, since oil doesn't burn and produce power, it effectively reduces the amount of gasoline in the mixture.  This means a gasoline/oil mixture will cause a leaner mixture than straight gasoline.  Guys running premix in 2-stroke engines usually have to jet slightly richer to get the same results as engines that have oil injection that's separate from the carburetors.

So adding oil to your gasoline made the mixture a little leaner, which could raise the idle speed if the mixture had been slightly on the rich side before.  I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened, but it's a possibility.

[Lucretia]

Several years ago (2 Guzzi's since) I had used the MMO to reduce slippage with the wet clutch on my 1980 Gold Wing. Replaced 1 litre in the oil and ran for about 500 kms. It did work! Was also reported to be able to loosen stuck rings. Don't know if it did.

[crock]

It is the chlorinated hydrocarbons in MMO that give it the extra kick. This makes things real slick and keeps them clean at the same time. I understand it has some serious long term corrosive effects when it is burned and that it has some serious problems with below zero temperature operation. That is the reason chlorinated hydrocarbons are not used in conventional oil formulas. So long as you are aware of the limitations it can prove very useful for specialized applications. I don't think its use as a continual (ie. added with every tank) fuel lubricant is as good as some of the  formulas like FP 60 because of the corrosion issue. It probably works because the amount is low but why take the risk when tailor made fuel lubricants are available? I know I will get flamed for saying this but in old carbureted cars and bikes, a  0.5% dose of modern smokeless two stroke oil can be a good idea. Using something like FP PLUS or FP 60 is a very safe way to get the same effect with a guarantee of cleanliness. It also works like STABIL in preserving gas for storage.

[Rough Edge racing]

Here's another bit of information, Kevdog:  In the 2-stroke world, it's known that oil in gasoline replaces some of the gasoline.  That is, since oil doesn't burn and produce power, it effectively reduces the amount of gasoline in the mixture.  This means a gasoline/oil mixture will cause a leaner mixture than straight gasoline.  Guys running premix in 2-stroke engines usually have to jet slightly richer to get the same results as engines that have oil injection that's separate from the carburetors.

So adding oil to your gasoline made the mixture a little leaner, which could raise the idle speed if the mixture had been slightly on the rich side before.  I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened, but it's a possibility.

    Yup...And with high compression racing engines running leaner for best power  a bit of oil past the rings or guides can  cause destructive detonation.

 A few months ago I got involved in a lengthy discussion with more experienced engine builders and the theory that high octane fuel burns slower....It's not that simple and not all high octane fuel burns slower than 87 octane...Some burn faster ...It depends on the fuel chemistry but the basic idea is higher octane ignites at a higher temperature than low octane to prevent spontaneous ignition of combustion end gasses. The combustion process and detonation is complex and I don't full understand it...
 

[Triple Jim]

...I got involved in a lengthy discussion with more experienced engine builders and the theory that high octane fuel burns slower....It's not that simple and not all high octane fuel burns slower than 87 octane...Some burn faster ...It depends on the fuel chemistry but the basic idea is higher octane ignites at a higher temperature than low octane to prevent spontaneous ignition...

I wish that information would spread around the Internet as fast as "high octane fuel has a lower burn rate" did.

[Lannis]

    Yup...And with high compression racing engines running leaner for best power  a bit of oil past the rings or guides can  cause destructive detonation.

 A few months ago I got involved in a lengthy discussion with more experienced engine builders and the theory that high octane fuel burns slower....It's not that simple and not all high octane fuel burns slower than 87 octane...Some burn faster ...It depends on the fuel chemistry but the basic idea is higher octane ignites at a higher temperature than low octane to prevent spontaneous ignition of combustion end gasses. The combustion process and detonation is complex and I don't full understand it...
 

A guy on this list who owns multiple Guzzis and keeps them ALL in excellent running shape all the time, puts a pint of kerosene into each 5-gallon tank of fuel on his bikes.   

His bikes always start up instantly even if they've been sitting for a long time, he has no rust inside his steel tanks, and the bikes run great at idle and on the road.

I know it works, but I've never had the nerve to do it myself.   And I wouldn't even start to guess WHY it works; only that, empirically, it does work .....

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

A guy on this list who owns multiple Guzzis and keeps them ALL in excellent running shape all the time, puts a pint of kerosene into each 5-gallon tank of fuel on his bikes.   

His bikes always start up instantly even if they've been sitting for a long time, he has no rust inside his steel tanks, and the bikes run great at idle and on the road.

I know it works, but I've never had the nerve to do it myself.   And I wouldn't even start to guess WHY it works; only that, empirically, it does work .....

Lannis

 My bikes and Jeeps run the same way on pump fuel with nothing added....If it works then do it to find out...

[Lannis]

My bikes and Jeeps run the same way on pump fuel with nothing added....If it works then do it to find out...

Mine don't.   Anything in my shop that sits for several months with the modern witch's brew that passes for fuel in the tanks end up with rust and clogged up pilot jets, and then rough running from the stale fuel ...

Lannis

[oldbike54]

 Lannis , my Guzzi always starts , no rust in the tank , no carbon build up , 120K miles , all W/O the aid of jet fuel  :D Heck , my old /5 had about 160K , same thing until it broke a valve . Well , there was the weekend when Guzzistajohn and Kirby had to push start me a couple of times due to the ball point pen springs used in the accelerator pumps rusting out and clogging the jets up a bit , hmm , maybe "jet" fuel would have helped  ;D

  Dusty

[guzzitime]

The mysterious Whoop TeeDoo  smells like Oil of Wintergreen.  Maybe???

[oldbike54]

The mysterious Whoop TeeDoo  smells like Oil of Wintergreen.  Maybe???

 Best stuff for aches and pains , but walk into a pharmacy now days and ask for a bottle of it  ???

  Dusty