Lithium Batteries

[charlie b]

http://www.starkpower.com the boat dealer I work at just started carrying this line.  pretty impressive batteries. they have a circuit board in them to prevent parasitic drain when the ignition is off,  the big trolling motor batteries that bass boats use save them 100lbs in the boats versus traditional AGM or wet batteries.
the little jump boxes are very nice, they can crank a v-8 engine with out a battery, or can jump them off about 8 times with out a charge. they come with accessory plugs so you can charge a completely dead cell phone in 10 min, run a computer all day.  when you touch the red and black jumpers together they don't spark because it senses and won't conduct.
check out the site. there is a difference in Lith batteries.
I will be buying one when my current battery gives up.

I may have to try one of these.

Onboard cell balancer is a great thing.

[Triple Jim]

Makes sense.  However since the old battery,an ancient yuasa, was actually in the circuit,  Is it possible that it was creating resistance in regard to current flow from the alternator?

It is possible that a failing battery with a shorted cell was able to draw all the available alternator current and force the output to be below the regulator set point, like 12v instead of 14v.  That would make the headlight dim, and also make the battery hot quickly, since the remaining five good cells would have been severely overcharged.  Batteries don't go very long that way before they completely quit.

[kevdog3019]

Ease up, Kev.  We have a context here -- comment said that changing the battery made his headlights brighter while riding.  He didn't change his stereo, wires, relays, or connectors.  He only changed the battery, which assuming he has a working charging system isn't going make the headlights any brighter when the alternator is supplying the current.  The alternator is supplying the current whenever its voltage exceeds battery voltage, which should be at a fairly low rpm.  In the course of changing it, he might have either deliberately or accidently improved the connection.  That's all I was saying.

The point I was trying to make is that things aren't as black and white as we may think. Volts may be volts but there's more surrounding them and possibly affecting them.  It's the involvement of other things that affect volts.  

[trippah]

That's why I think no battery systems are best (snapping my very old suspenders).  Keep a couple of young-uns around to help push starting. ;D ;D ;D

[Wayne Orwig]

That's why I think no battery systems are best (snapping my very old suspenders).  Keep a couple of young-uns around to help push starting. ;D ;D ;D

Bump starting is king.     ;-T





I suspect the person made a mistake. The lights easily ARE brighter at rest because of the higher resting voltage and lower internal resistance. Once it is at a regulated alternator voltage, it should be the same. But the new 'brighter' may have made him think it was still brighter at high revs. Or he may have been comparing a fully charge LiFe to a nearly dead Pb, so the Pb just needed a few minutes to charge before the battery voltage get to a reasonable value. Hardly a fair comparison. Or maybe he simply tightened a loose connection when he changed the battery. We don't know, and will never know.

No lumens measured, it didn't happen IMHO.
If you are changing battery technology just to try to get brighter lighting, you are beyond help anyway.  ;D

[gfritzmeier]

Well I just went ahead and bought a lithium not necessarily based on every statement on here. What I find really interesting on the forum is that a few of you(long time poster) usually end up saying the same thing in different ways of saying it and in the end ya finally agree. I love getting all the answers. Now for those little jump starters. While my old acid battery was in my bike I used the jumper at least a dozen times in the last week and I still have 97% power left in it. I got mine for $54 on amazon(or was it ebay) not $150+- for ones small enough to fit in a shirt pocket so now I'll have to see if the accessory cords fit into the lithium so that I can get a rapid recharge while on the road. I carry mine in my bags and hope I don't have to use it in the future. Oh in regards to using the wrong charger , Shorai says that a regular charger can be used as long as it's less than 3 amps and new enough to have the auto shutoff feature.
I have as much fun getting all the variety of replies and sifting for actual information. I'll let ya know if my charging of batteries was something other than the battery or if my opinion changes on Lithium.
Fritz

[Big Block Jon]

And let us know if your headlight is brighter.  ;)

[tonyduc]

The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died so I ordered a Shorai Li battery. SHORAI LFX21A6-BS12 Lithium-Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) puts out more amps that the other one recommended for the Stelvio. Because of the sideways orientation of the battery in the Stelvio I thought I would try a battery that won't leak. I did a lot of research, here is a good thread:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?285641-Shorai-LFX21A6-BS12

As someone said above, it appears that there is a lot of misunderstanding about these batteries. In the cold it is recommended that you actually warm up the battery prior to cranking, e.g., keeping the headlights on for 30s before starting. Also for quick charges you can use a regular battery tender but it is not recommended that you keep the battery tender on to maintain a charge.

[bpreynolds]

Over the years I've seen so many of these Lithium threads come and go here and on other sites as well.  A bit annoyed with myself that I'm again chasing another Li thread here but oh well, boredom does get the best of me sometimes  ;)  Let me reiterate, there are ALWAYS folks in these threads who SWEAR by them and then MANY others who have had issues with them.  The pleathora of trouble I read and then my own careful use and ultimate failure even in consultation with battery rep and with Shorai charger and nobody on planet Earth can tell me it's all just user error or "misunderstanding" of the battery.  I giggle at the folks - and there are always folks in these threads - who say it's just a simple mistake, or wrong charger, or someone not following lithium procedures, or blah, bleh, blub.  It's almost insulting to read.  I jolly say again, if ya got the time, money, and patience to try one out, go for it.  If it works for ya, great, if not then join the ranks.   :BEER:

[redrider]

Despite the problems with the Ballistic in the Benelli, I installed the Shorai LFX18 in the V11 and with temps in the 50's overnight, the morning start was stronger than the LA Yuasa MF. No pre-warming needed. Could it be the prismatic vs. cylindrical cell construction? Winter will be the test.

The reasons for the change out were seat pan interference and orientation. I noticed some abrasion on the Yuasa case and some gap appearing at the top of the case joint. Not wanting an acid bath on the parts below was my first concern. Secondly, the MF design has a gassing chamber above the cells. This was ineffective at the angle of installation. Perhaps even exposing the plates with a loss of performance over time.

The Benelli does not have instant on headlights-only on when the engine is running so there was no load to pre-warm the battery. Much like aircraft, perhaps a system power up before engine start is the new normal. 

[Wayne Orwig]

In the cold it is recommended that you actually warm up the battery prior to cranking, e.g., keeping the headlights on for 30s before starting.

On the Stelvio, how are you going to turn on the headlights before starting the motor?

[Chuck in Indiana]

On the Stelvio, how are you going to turn on the headlights before starting the motor?

That's the same problem the Triumph guy had.. and the low cranking voltage did something weird to the timing. Crank crank kabang! Repeat for a really long time. I fully realize it is just one occurrence, but it got my attention.. ;D

[old head]

On the Stelvio, how are you going to turn on the headlights before starting the motor?

I have went through two winter seasons (Louisiana doesn't have cold, but...) and on the Breva the battery won't crank below 60.  It won't crank as the dash shows the voltage below 12 volts when the air temp cooler, 

there is no way to warm up the battery.

It takes hitting the starter button many, many times before the battery begins to wake up, the cooler it is the more jabs.  It has taken over 50 jabs to crank some colder mornings.

I have now taken to attaching a 2 amp charger to the battery when I get ready to go, so the battery shows 12+ volts and it cranks easy.  My impression it is not so much the battery doesn't have the power, as it is the computer won't let it crank until it sees a certain amount of voltage.

Now, I don't have issues the rest of day after it cranks, but I wouldn't count on it at 1 am in the morning when it is going to be cold.

I won't buy another Lithium battery for a bike that the computer controls the starting circuit.

I do like the light weight, small size, and no acid leaks, but if it won't crank, its a problem.

Old Head

[Wayne Orwig]

My impression it is not so much the battery doesn't have the power, as it is the computer won't let it crank until it sees a certain amount of voltage.

Just an FYI. It isn't the 'computer'. It is the wiring dropping too many volts to pull in the starter solenoid.
You should rewire the starter relay even with a lead acid battery so you don't get stranded.

[Demar]

I will add my experience....

11 months after I bought my 2012 Stelvio my battery died in my driveway after a weekend trip. My battery looked like this...



I replaced it with a Shorai and I haven't had any problems. I don't ride when it's cold so I can't comment but the bike has always started in temps down to 45F. Because of the comments about Li batteries I bought this and bring it with me on every trip....



I'm really glad I have it. It recharges laptops, phones, has a built in flashlight that flashes and strobes, etc. After six months of storage it still had 85% charge. Last night I started my daughters 2013 Escape that had a dead battery. As soon as I pluged in the Antigravity the Escape came alive...radio on, light on. It cranked over on the first try. I figure if it's so cold out that my bike won't start I can put the Antigravity in my pocket for 10 minutes to warm it up.

[MotoG5]

My approach to the cold starting issue was to get a battery that was 2x greater in cranking power than the OEM LA unit. Pricey for sure but even when the temps are in the low twenties F it has only taken two hits to start the bike and often only one. If you are using a lithium unit that is just equal to the OEM in cranking power I can see how that could be an issue. I am not recommending the lithium type to anyone unless you are like me and had a very hard time trying to find a safe alternative for the leaking OEM Yuasa in the NTX a couple of years ago. Seems that now a few more AGM types are available that will fit in the NTX and not weep acid under the tank.

[Lannis]

The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died so I ordered a Shorai Li battery. SHORAI LFX21A6-BS12 Lithium-Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) puts out more amps that the other one recommended for the Stelvio. Because of the sideways orientation of the battery in the Stelvio I thought I would try a battery that won't leak. I did a lot of research, here is a good thread:

 

The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died ... (well, it didn't die but would lose a charge over about 3 weeks, a sure sign of "Help, I'm going, going ....).

The Yuasa was 6 years old, served me well, and never leaked. 

So I bought another one just like it. 

This is so no one can say "All I've heard about Yuasa batteries is bad!".    MY Yuasa battery is GOOD!

Lannis

[kevdog3019]

The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died ... (well, it didn't die but would lose a charge over about 3 weeks, a sure sign of "Help, I'm going, going ....).

The Yuasa was 6 years old, served me well, and never leaked. 

So I bought another one just like it. 

This is so no one can say "All I've heard about Yuasa batteries is bad!".    MY Yuasa battery is GOOD!

Lannis

It died didn't it?   :P

[Lannis]

It died didn't it?   :P

Yes ... after 6 YEARS!

That's like saying "Wonder what was wrong with Jim?   He only lived to be 102 .... "   :D

Lannis

[kevdog3019]

The Yuasa battery on my Stelvio just died ... (well, it didn't die but would lose a charge over about 3 weeks, a sure sign of "Help, I'm going, going ....).

The Yuasa was 6 years old, served me well, and never leaked. 

So I bought another one just like it. 

This is so no one can say "All I've heard about Yuasa batteries is bad!".    MY Yuasa battery is GOOD!

Lannis

Just a joke about your last statement.  ;)

[Lannis]

Just a joke about your last statement.  ;)

Oh, yeah ... well, my NEW ONE is good now!   ;-T

And my old one will probably power the electric fence around my garden for a while ....

Lannis

[Penderic]

Oh, yeah ... well, my NEW ONE is good now!   ;-T

Lannis

[bpreynolds]

This thread is getting me really charged up   :wife:

[Yukonica]

This thread is getting me really charged up   :wife:

watt? can't hear you.
 ;D

[kevdog3019]

It's full of positives and negatives for sure, not to mention resistance. :BEER:

[bpreynolds]

Are we properly/improperly grounding this joke?

[Lannis]

It's full of positives and negatives for sure, not to mention resistance. :BEER:

Don't worry, the thread won't be current for long.   By the time we're telling electricity jokes, it's terminal.

[bpreynolds]

Don't worry, the thread won't be current for long.   By the time we're telling electricity jokes, it's terminal.

And once it's drained and completely dead, never really recharges the same again. 
Sorry. ;D

[kevdog3019]

Trickle trickle trickle...

[gfritzmeier]

And let us know if your headlight is brighter.  ;)

I don't have a clue if the headlight is brighter, just like a lot of other things.  But I can tell you this, put it on a trickle charger a few weeks ago and went for short ride. Then I let it sits for a few weeks when the weather was chillier than I wanted to ride not to mention the snow. It sat thru the cold weather here in Minnsnowta and started right up this morning for a running a couple errands and I'm betting it might do so again tomorrow.