(NGC) 2wd vs 4wd pckups

[Lannis]

Lannis, just a musing on the silliness of this crowd questioning the wants of others.

Yeah, but waddya do when someone says (like I do sometimes) ...

"I'm thinking I might want one of these.   What does WG think?"

In the midst of the musings, followed by insistence, conflict, posturings, and finally open warfare, you can often find stuff where you say "Glad I asked; THAT would have been a bad idea!"

Lannis

[Kev m]

Not saying the discussion doesn't bring decent points to light, like:

* a limited slip diff is good and even more important on 2wd

* many obviously can get by with 2wd if conditions are right, or they are smart, or they use winter tires, or, see limited slip

* initial costs of 4wd are higher, but so is resale.

* maintenance and operating costs may be higher of 4wd, but amount will vary.

Etc.

But none of that represents any objective superiority of one position no?

[Lannis]

Not saying the discussion doesn't bring decent points to light, like:

* a limited slip diff is good and even more important on 2wd

* many obviously can get by with 2wd if conditions are right, or they are smart, or they use winter tires, or, see limited slip

* initial costs of 4wd are higher, but so is resale.

* maintenance and operating costs may be higher of 4wd, but amount will vary.

Etc.

But none of that represents any objective superiority of one position no?

Good summary, and no position has any objective superiority, not on this subject!   How far can you go wrong anyway?

Lannis

[father guzzi obrian]

I have had many 4 wheel drives, as well as real 4 wheel drives, a 72 International Scout with locking Warn hubs, as well as 2 wheel drive tacomas.  I bought all of my 4X4's to do real rock climbing and exploring. They were loud, did not get great mileage and were absolutely fantastic for what I wanted them for.  My 2 wheel drive Toyotas went anywhere I would need to go with decent tires. And much better ride and all the rest ;-T

[charlie b]

Until we moved here 2WD was fine for road travel.  As long as it has a limited slip and you don't expect to go everywhere when it snows.

Our driveway is about 10% grade, gravel/mud.  When it rains hard or snows nothing goes up it unless it has 4WD/AWD.

For light duty off road a 2WD with limited slip can work, but, it is no where near as capable as a 4WD.

So, pick based on your use.  If it is city stuff I'd stay with 2WD and limited slip. 

[boatdetective]

I had a Toyo Tacoma 2WD because i thought "I didn't need no 4WD". I can remember numerous times over the winter when I was close to tears over the complete lack of traction. Granted, this is New England.  I also found at resale time I got hammered because everyone wants 4WD up here. Since then, I've had a Lexus RX330 and a Toyota Rav4.  To me, there are enough times when the added traction makes a difference. 

[Paul]

8' = a truck
>8' = a car

[K250]

Note limited slip is not a locking differential.  Not many pickups even have the option for locking.  Limited slip works in the rear axle, when installed and new, and degrades over time.  At some point, 100,000 miles or so in my experience, the limited slip wears out and becomes a regular differential. 

Some brands of pickups are definitely moving away from limited slip and towards using the traction control computer to handle slippage by applying brake only to the spinnning wheel.  This has the advantage of not wearing out, and also functioning on the front in 4wd applications.

[Two Checks]

Omigosh, how have I survived for 60 years with 2WD?
Usually the reason LSDs stop working is the gear lube neds changing. The clutches need the additives to work properly. Over time the additives give up the ghost.

And if the traction computer applies the brakes to the spinning wheel on an open differential all it does is stop the spinning. It wont transfer power to the other wheel.

[Rough Edge racing]

Omigosh, how have I survived for 60 years with 2WD?
Usually the reason LSDs stop working is the gear lube neds changing. The clutches need the additives to work properly. Over time the additives give up the ghost.

And if the traction computer applies the brakes to the spinning wheel on an open differential all it does is stop the spinning. It wont transfer power to the other wheel.

 On an open differential, applying the brake on the spinning wheel does apply all power to the other drive wheel. It how a differential functions...That's why tractors have separate wheel brakes. But a locker or limited slip should split power to both wheels....On very greasy surfaces the limited slip differential in my Jeep needs a bit of help by slightly applying the emergency brake ... Also mentioned in vehicle owners manuals..
 I have driven for years on limited traction surfaces like snow,mud or off road. All wheel drive is so superior to one axle drive in adverse conditions that it's no comparison..

[Kev m]

And if the traction computer applies the brakes to the spinning wheel on an open differential all it does is stop the spinning. It wont transfer power to the other wheel.

Not true.

It's how Jeep is managing traction on a lot of their vehicles now - including our WK2 (Grand Cherokee) which though it has a lockable transfer case has open diffs front and back. I've felt the effect of the BLD in deep OBX beach/dune sand (and can hear the system working as well) and it does VERY well. I've pulled other stuck vehicles off dunes with it. Never had a problem myself.

[rocker59]

  At some point, 100,000 miles or so in my experience, the limited slip wears out and becomes a regular differential. 

Just a point of reference, the LSD in my 2002 Suburban still functions at 255,000 miles.

[Rough Edge racing]

Just a point of reference, the LSD in my 2002 Suburban still functions at 255,000 miles.

 The GM Gov-lock will last if not abused by aggressive driving.It disconnects at higher speeds to lessen fishtailing on slippery roads. Eaton type are the traditional "Posi" with  multi plate clutches preloading the spider gears. The Auburn style like in my Jeep uses a cone clutch that in theory is not rebuildable. Obviously a LSD will last longer with less differential action like going around tight corners ,driving in mud or hole shots.

[Tobit]

Either dad or I have owned a '71 F250 2wd, a '92 or so Nissan 2wd, a Dodge D100 I6, three on the tree 2wd, a Chevy 1500 SB 2wd, a '90 F150 I6 2wd, a '93 F150 I6 2wd, a '90 Bronco 4wd (Michigan winters), an '07 Cherokee AWD (great in snow, very unreliable Trans shift module electronics) and now I have an '07 F150 5.4l 2wd.  We've also had a genyouwine X-Army Willys jeep, obviously 4wd, with which we explored Panamanian jungles on hunting trips and also towed our 21' Orlando Clipper a few miles each way to the salt water ramp.  Good thing Canal Zone speed limits were 35mph.

When I bought the '07 F150 two years ago I considered for a moment going 4x4 as they're as common as zits in high school anymore, but looking at what I really do with a truck it didn't make sense.  With my 2wd and common sense I manage muddy off-road two track for hunting and camping, and when it snows for a few days a year that it does here I throw a few hundred pounds of debris under the tonneau cover and motor on.  Just couldn't justify "needing" the 4wd.

If you're buying a full sized truck, you're not going to worry about the slight hit in gas mileage 4wd will cost you.  Funniest posts on truck forums I'm on are the guys complaining about 20mpg or less after doing the lift, lo-ratio diffs, 36" swampers, HID/LED conversions and cool stereo.

Also, if you're looking at a crew cab you'll only get a 5' or shorter bed so why not go for a Suburban or Expedition.  Unless you plan on carrying something filthy and stinky in that very small bed, made even smaller by installing the requisite toolbox, a fully enclosed vehicle might be preferred.

If you need 4x4 you know it.  If you want it, you know that too.  Buy what makes you happy.  

Tobit
(still looking for a "I use Ford Festivas as wheel chocks" bumper sticker)  Hi Lannis!

 ;D

[Penderic]

Clever! Wind powered turn signals!

[Lannis]

Tobit
(still looking for a "I use Ford Festivas as wheel chocks" bumper sticker)  Hi Lannis!

 ;D

That's all right; you rain-forest destroying, petroleum-hogging, climate-ruining First World materialists just go ahead and burn burn burn that petrol ... just don't come running to ME when you end up having to get past this guy to try to find the next 100 gallons of fuel for those monsters, while I buzz by running on the fumes you wasted ....  ;)



Lannis

[Penderic]

Are you going to get one of those light-weight sport jobs, Lannis?

A Two Footer?

[twhitaker]

Interesting. Lucas made shoes too?

[Kev m]

Also, if you're looking at a crew cab you'll only get a 5' or shorter bed so why not go for a Suburban or Expedition.  Unless you plan on carrying something filthy and stinky in that very small bed, made even smaller by installing the requisite toolbox, a fully enclosed vehicle might be preferred.

There are plenty of things you can move in the 5-6' beds behind today's crew cab trucks that you can't fit inside an SUV from motorbikes to appliances or furniture, not to mention dirty landscape supplies are easier to manage in a truck bed.

[Perazzimx14]

We can all agree there is no "I" in pckups but there is in pIckup  ???

I'm partial to my 1WD Guzzi's :o

[Joliet Jim]

After the last couple of winters, I'll keep my 4x4

[LaMojo]

One alternate to limited slip differentials is to use the parking brake moderately if you need power to both rear wheels. Note that all manufactures now use overhead cams in their V8 design except for GM which still uses the obsolete (by today's standards) pushrod engines in their PU. 

[LowRyter]

I have a Duramax Allison diesel 2500HD 2WD X Cab.  I use it pull my 5th wheel travel trailer toy hauler.  

A couple of years ago I was dry camping my rig at the Coke Lot at Indy Moto Speedway for the 500 mile race.  We had rain Sunday night, on Monday morning the grass so slick that I couldn't get the truck to move.  I called a tow truck, he had 2WD and got stuck yoo.  He was puled out by a Ford F150 4WD and my rig was pulled out by a Chevy 1500 4WD.

I've only needed 4WD once.  But I did need it.

[Joliet Jim]

One alternate to limited slip differentials is to use the parking brake moderately if you need power to both rear wheels. Note that all manufactures now use overhead cams in their V8 design except for GM which still uses the obsolete (by today's standards) pushrod engines in their PU. 

Why is it obsolete? Because it gets great gas mileage and tows great?

[bratman2]

Subaru also uses the computer controlled braking on their all wheel drive systems. My wife can vouch that her Forester XT is an awesome all wheel drive.

Back to trucks, he is looking supercab I thought, which if he is partial to Fords will give him a 6' 6" bed, plenty big enough. Plus several years ago Ford installed traction control on their F150 trucks. There is one at work, in 4 wheel drive low range you can see it switch from left to right finding traction. Works the same on 2 wheel drive just only on one axle of course. With the introduction of the 3.7L V6 for a standard engine you have over 300 hp and can get in the low to mid 20's in the country or highway. Some other things to consider if you do not need four wheel drive is replacement tires or much higher. The newer 4 wheel drives such as my son in laws 2014 F150 come with 18" or bigger rims. He didn't pay the tires any attention and I found them over inflated. This caused him to have to purchase over $800.00 worth of tires at just over 20k miles. Last set I bought for a two wheel drive 2000 F150 were around $400.00, in 2005. Sure four wheel drive is nice. I have a Brat with four wheel drive and love it, but the next F150 I buy will be two wheel drive just like the last one. It had limited slip though and I never really needed that. The new Fords have optional locker rear ends, no limited slip available anymore. Just food for thought.

[rboe]

Just picked up a F150 (2014). 2WD, with the locking Diff. option. A couple 4WD fans have told me that with the locking diff. it's ALMOST as good as 4WD.

I've owned 4WD vehicles and was able to make use of them from time to time. I've also used 2WD cars in the dreaded winter in Duluth where the hills really challenge drivers. I've found that tires and front rear weight distribution are a bigger influence than 2WD or 4WD. Given perfect weight distribution and new snow tires, 4WD is superior; but only in the extreme where you are better off staying indoors. Unless you have to be out (like a Dr.) and about.

I'm looking at upgrading my tires from the Traction Rating A, not even All Season tires. :p

I considered 4WD, but I got a good deal on a left over 2014, and if push comes to shove, we have the Outback with AWD. :)

For most folks, 4WD is over rated. But as Rocker demonstrated, there are times when it is just too useful and it makes sense to buy 4WD in those cases. But if you don't need it, it does not make sense to be "pressured" to get 4WD.

[LowRyter]

One alternate to limited slip differentials is to use the parking brake moderately if you need power to both rear wheels. Note that all manufactures now use overhead cams in their V8 design except for GM which still uses the obsolete (by today's standards) pushrod engines in their PU.  

You do realize that you are on a Moto Guzzi forum ?

[Rough Edge racing]

Just picked up a F150 (2014). 2WD, with the locking Diff. option. A couple 4WD fans have told me that with the locking diff. it's ALMOST as good as 4WD.

 Your 4 Wheel drive fans are mistaken....In ice, snow , mud or off road  there's no comparison..

[GearheadGrrrl]

Do you even need a pickup? I live in rural Minnesota and have a 4 wheel drive Ranger that hasn't been on the road for a couple years, get around fine in a couple VW Golf TDIs. If the roads ain't plowed it's too dangerous to drive anyway and I sit it out. Hauling stuff? Just hook up the trailer. Think about it for a minute- $30k plus for a 4WD pickup that gets 15 MPG vs. $20k for a decent small car that gets 30MPG and does the same job? With the $10k saved you can buy a new Guzzi and the $$$ saved on fuel will fuel the Guzzi!

[Two Checks]

The Hemi engine in the Ram truck is a pushrod engine.