Author Topic: want my 2014-guzzi v7 special to run fatter - and need a cheap solution...  (Read 25966 times)

Offline kevdog3019

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5648
Not to turn this thread into a mods thread (as we've had PLENTY of those), but I dare say some folks have witnessed some poor running habits from certain mods and NOT WITNESSED the good mods others have done. This may be because they have a job as a FIXER so they are witness to the negative and rarely to the positive. I look at mods as a double edged sword. If you get it right it can be very rewarding, if not, well...

Things aren't always right from the factory either as most of us can attest.
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

Offline pyoungbl

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1978
With all due respect, one instance of too much gasoline washing the cylinders clean of oil does not make a trend. Have not other owners of V7s (and other Moto Guzzis) had success with this cheap and easy option?

I guess I am just frustrated with the negativity associated with the topic of modifications. In the Triumph Modern Classics world, modifications are cheap and easy and, perhaps more importantly, encouraged. Here, they are poo-pooed. Why is that? Are very few Moto Guzzi owners willing to modify their bikes?

I tried an O2 spoofer in my '07 Norge.  The bike ran incredibly rich, to the point where it put the bike into limp home mode.  Oh, and this in the middle of a 1600 mile trip.  The O2 sensor was totally black and had to be replaced so I could get home.  The unit was sold as one specifically set up for my bike (from a vendor many of us use) but was completely unsatisfactory.  My gas mileage plunged to the high 20s or low 30s!.

I'm not afraid to modify my bike.  That seems to be true of most Guzzi owners since I rarely see a modern Guzzi that is 100% stock.  What Pete and others are trying to say is that in this application spending money for different air filter and mufflers produces no benefit in terms of power and will usually make the bike run worse than stock.  I had my ECU dyno tuned for a totally stock bike.  That did not make much, if any, difference in power output.  All I got was a smoother running bike.  One can make all sorts of changes to the V7 engine but, unless you are willing to spend lots and lots of money, you are still riding a 40 rwhp machine.  If you really want a better riding experience, upgrade the suspension.

The OP would be much better off with the most recent factory map and a good valve adjustment than any kind of electronic band-aid.

Peter Y.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline roadscum

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
Not to turn this thread into a mods thread (as we've had PLENTY of those), but I dare say some folks have witnessed some poor running habits from certain mods and NOT WITNESSED the good mods others have done. This may be because they have a job as a FIXER so they are witness to the negative and rarely to the positive. I look at mods as a double edged sword. If you get it right it can be very rewarding, if not, well...

Things aren't always right from the factory either as most of us can attest.

+1  So true! And folks will show up here with a problem but they rarely initiate a thread to tell us how well their bike is running.

Paul
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing " - Socrates

Paul M. in SW Florida: 318 miles, 11 curves and not a Guzzi dealer in sight!

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 31068
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
I would take that bet. Triumph itself makes Arrow pipes and silencers an approved option and even includes an ECU re-map as part of the deal so the bike will run as well after the modification as it did before. (My Thruxton certainly runs just as well, despite using freer-flowing British Customs "silencers" instead of Arrow cans.)

I dare say some people are not looking for more power when they install an after-market can. They are looking for something that sounds better to them.

But I come back to this: why not encourage people to experiment with their bikes? So what if they screw it up? It's a bike! It can be fixed.
Well there you have biggest difference.

Triumph, Harley, Ducati, and probably some other brands sell aftermarket style mufflers AND matching maps or race ECUs.

Guzzi doesn't.

Maybe that's why they seem to have made the V7s more self-adjusting then the ECMs from those other brands.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline jas67

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5438
  • Location: Palmyra, PA
Take off all the horrible shit you've put on it and it will run nicely. None of the horrible shit will make it any faster and you yourself have found that it was a waste of money that made your bike run like crap.

I, for one, really do appreciate Pete's direct manor.   ;D

Something is wrong then. Once mine gets past the initial minute or two of running it almost NEVER stalls (maybe it has stalled once or twice in almost 8,000 miles, and those times it was probably something stupid I did).

My 2013 V7R is the same.

2017 V7III Special
1977 Le Mans
1974 Eldorado
2017 Triumph Thruxton R
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 2013 848 Evo Corse SE, 1974 750GT, 1970 Mk3d 450 Desmo, 1966 Monza 250
1975 Moto Morini 3 1/2
2007 Vespa GTS250
2016 BMW R1200RS, 80 R100S, 76 R90S ,73 R75/5
76 Honda CB400F, 67 305 Super Hawk, 68 CL175

Penderic

  • Guest


"Fix my brakes, the horn stopped working."  :D
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 09:57:44 PM by Penderic »

Vasco DG

  • Guest
What Pete and others are trying to say is that in this application spending money for different air filter and mufflers produces no benefit in terms of power and will usually make the bike run worse than stock.  I had my ECU dyno tuned for a totally stock bike.  That did not make much, if any, difference in power output.  All I got was a smoother running bike.  One can make all sorts of changes to the V7 engine but, unless you are willing to spend lots and lots of money, you are still riding a 40 rwhp machine.  If you really want a better riding experience, upgrade the suspension.

Peter Y.

This.

The shitty K&N won't take out anything smaller than medium sized birds anyway so not only does it screw yer fueling but it'll bugger yer bores and top end as well. Bonus!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 02:41:54 AM by Vasco DG »

Offline fossil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 693
Well, at least here in Europe you can fit Arrow mufflers if you want to at your STB V7. The dual types however are not street legal, however the two-in one types are. You can get them officially from Moto Guzzi. But why should I tinker with the wonderful sound that even my neighbours all like from the stock LaFranconis?

And, yes, even though my bike (end-of-2012) is reflashed with the newest firmware it stalls in the first 2 minutes or so if I let not warm it up properly. And, do I care? I do not use it for commuting, I regard each tour shorter than 30 minutes out of town as harmful for this old engine layout. If I want something different I would look for an MT07 or such a thing.
Greetings from Germany!
Thorsten

Offline kingoffleece

  • SplitWeight(tm) seat covers
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4362
  • Rated 5 STARS Motorcycle Consumer News
  • Location: Valley of the Sun
Off Topic-but as stated above Triumph provides a map with the Arrow 865 option.  When BIKE mag put this option on a Scrambler they are testing the performance went down with the supplied Triumph map.
SplitWeight(tm) seat covers. A King of Fleece LLC product.

harryzet

  • Guest
ok, does anybody have an answer for my question? ;D

Offline O

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
  • Don't force it, get a bigger hammer.
  • Location: Central Mass
ok, does anybody have an answer for my question? ;D

To recap the advice given so far:
1.  Check your valves
2.  Take Pete's advice and put the stock air filter back on
3.  Try giving the bike two minutes to warm up before starting your ride

I also have a (US) 2014 V7 special, all stock, and it runs flawlessly.  I fire it up, put on earplugs, helmet, and gloves, and go.
Owen

2014 V7 Special

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 31068
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Re:
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2015, 05:14:26 AM »
Are you sure the service was done properly? Head retorque if it was the first one?
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Vasco DG

  • Guest
Yup. But none of them will be as cheap as you want.

You bought a bike.

It didn't run as you'd expected so you screwed about with it and it ran worse.

Having invalidated your warranty you go to the Internet to have a winge and ask someone, anyone, to fix your screw up.

When it is pointed out, politely, that you are a fool your answer is to cogitate for a day or two and then come back and try and be smart.

Grow up.


Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 31068
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Yo Pete, you know I love ya man... but is your testicle acting up again? Take it easy on the poor guy.  :-*
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline Waltr

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 892
    • Europa Macchina
  • Location: south central PA
  Last week we had a single throttle body V7  in for service.  It had the stock air cleaner.  He added Agostini stainless larger diameter head pipes and a pair of Agostini Titanium mufflers.  The system does still have a crossover pipe.  I expected this bike to loose everything on the bottom end but this was not the case. The bike took a long time to warm up but ran fine everywhere once warm and this is without the DB killer.   Now I am in no way saying Pete is wrong about his assertion, the bike did not really run better but did not seem to be hurt by the pipe.  It may be unique to this pipe combination. I am unsure if the mapping in the US is any different than European mapping.
The pipe was loud but very deep in tone.
I am not saying you or anyone should run this bike on the street, just posting our experience.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
www.motoguzzipa.com


2012 Norge

Vasco DG

  • Guest
Why? People are bending over backwards to give him advice and his attitude is to troll! Bollocks!

Pete

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 31068
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Why? People are bending over backwards to give him advice and his attitude is to troll! Bollocks!

Pete

Maybe there's a language barrier, maybe we came at him too hard/too fast, maybe he's a moron, I dunno ... YET.

But I figured I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.  :BEER:   (I'm so mellow and tolerant).  :BEER:
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Vasco DG

  • Guest
  Last week we had a single throttle body V7  in for service.  It had the stock air cleaner.  He added Agostini stainless larger diameter head pipes and a pair of Agostini Titanium mufflers.  The system does still have a crossover pipe.  I expected this bike to loose everything on the bottom end but this was not the case. The bike took a long time to warm up but ran fine everywhere once warm and this is without the DB killer.   Now I am in no way saying Pete is wrong about his assertion, the bike did not really run better but did not seem to be hurt by the pipe.  It may be unique to this pipe combination. I am unsure if the mapping in the US is any different than European mapping.
The pipe was loud but very deep in tone.
I am not saying you or anyone should run this bike on the street, just posting our experience.

Walt, as I've said he can do anything he likes with his bike but if it's poor running pre-dated the addition of the aftermarket stuff, which I see as un-necessary and potentially damaging but nobody is forced to agree with me, then surely the best thing to do would be get the poor little thing to run RIGHT in stock trim rather than throwing a load of crap on it and then asking for a 'Cheap' solution for a self made problem?

Anyway, I said I'd bow out of this. I should take my own counsel.

Pete

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 31068
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Walt, as I've said he can do anything he likes with his bike but if it's poor running pre-dated the addition of the aftermarket stuff, which I see as un-necessary and potentially damaging but nobody is forced to agree with me, then surely the best thing to do would be get the poor little thing to run RIGHT in stock trim rather than throwing a load of crap on it and then asking for a 'Cheap' solution for a self made problem?

FOR THE RECORD, I'm not disagreeing with your advice.

1. Return it to stock and see if problem persists.
A. If it DOES, diagnose and fix, then go back to playing with aftermarket bits.
B. If it DOES NOT, then you know the aftermarket bits are the problem seek out Rexxer or similar solution.

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline rocker59

  • Global Moderator
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24278
  • "diplomatico di moto"
  • Location: Aux Arcs
Why? People are bending over backwards to give him advice and his attitude is to troll! Bollocks!

Pete

Yeah. 

What is it about these new-to-Guzzi, new V7 owners that come around complaining about a running issue, get good advice from the folks here, then argue with that advice?

I don't get it.
Michael T.
Aux Arcs de Akansea
2017 Triumph T100 Bonneville
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

harryzet

  • Guest
dear folks, sorry if i pissed you off. its probably the language barreier also. to make it clear: the bike runs lean with serial exhaust and airfilter, this has not changed when i put on the k+n and the new exhaust. i have put in the serial air-filter yesterday and still it does not run smoothly on the first kilometers. thats why i asked for help here. ill check valve clearance on the weekend. sorry, running the standing bike a few minutes to warm up in the morning is clearly no option, as i live in the old city of vienna with lots of houses and churches around and dont want to wake up everybody here at 7 o clock.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 09:46:05 AM by harryzet »

Offline fotoguzzi

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 19984
  • vee git tooh soon oldt und too late wise -my Dad
dear folks, sorry if i pissed you off. its probably the language barreier also. to make it clear: the bike runs lean with serial exhaust and airfilter, this has not changed when i put on the k+n and the new exhaust. i have put in the serial air-filter yesterday and still it does not run smoothly on the first kilometers. thats why i asked for help here. ill check valve clearance on the weekend. sorry, running the standing bike a few minutes to warm up in the morning is clearly no option, as i live in the old city of vienna with lots of houses and churches around and dont want to wake up everybody here at 7 o clock.
get a Prius then
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 31068
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
dear folks, sorry if i pissed you off. its probably the language barreier also. to make it clear: the bike runs lean with serial exhaust and airfilter, this has not changed when i put on the k+n and the new exhaust. i have put in the serial air-filter yesterday and still it does not run smoothly on the first kilometers. thats why i asked for help here. ill check valve clearance on the weekend. sorry, running the standing bike a few minutes to warm up in the morning is clearly no option, as i live in the old city of vienna with lots of houses and churches around and dont want to wake up everybody here at 7 o clock.

One of the reasons people might be getting frustrated with this question is that it sounds like you are making an assumption that all of your troubles are just black and white that the bike is running lean and that is NOT necessarily true.

If the bike does the same thing WITHOUT THE K&N and WITH THE STOCK MUFFLERS - then you have a problem which should be fixed before using the aftermarket stuff.

If the bike ONLY does this with the aftermarket mufflers, then I would suggest you don't just ASSUME it is happening because it is lean. Just plain fattening up the mixture is NOT necessarily the answer. SURE it is possible it is lean somewhere in the map, maybe even "too lean" that it may cause some symptoms. But stalling when cold, I dunno, that is usually when an EFI motor is already running pretty rich on purpose. And remember to complicate things further you have a partial Ride-by-Wire bike where idle speed is being controlled by spark timing and ECM controlled throttle position, so it may be struggling to maintain idle speed when cold for another reason.

I know it's popular for people to assume that all modern bikes and cars run lean, and THEY DO IN CLOSED LOOP OPERATION (once warmed up and with feedback from the oxygen sensors). But as far as I know MOST standards for the EU and US do NOT regulate how rich a bike might run OUTSIDE closed-loop.

Many Guzzis (and other brands) seem to run PIG RICH during warm-up and at throttle when out of closed-loop.

So if you can't find anything wrong with the valves or other basic settings, then I would suggest your best bet would be to take the bike to a shop that has Rexxer software and have a custom map put in. IF the dyno operator is honest with you (and does a thorough job) I BET he won't just blanket fatten the mixture everywhere.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 10:04:57 AM by Kev m »
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline JeffOlson

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1643
  • Location: Oregon & Washington
dear folks, sorry if i pissed you off. its probably the language barreier also. to make it clear: the bike runs lean with serial exhaust and airfilter, this has not changed when i put on the k+n and the new exhaust. i have put in the serial air-filter yesterday and still it does not run smoothly on the first kilometers. thats why i asked for help here. ill check valve clearance on the weekend. sorry, running the standing bike a few minutes to warm up in the morning is clearly no option, as i live in the old city of vienna with lots of houses and churches around and dont want to wake up everybody here at 7 o clock.

You have not pissed me off at all! I am on your side in this. No one else may be, but I am! On behalf of at least myself, welcome to the forum!

I like to fiddle with my bikes, too. Why leave well enough alone? The world would not be the same without adventurers and explorers...

Best of luck to you!

By the way, you live in an awesome city!
2018 Vespa GTS 300
2016 Moto Guzzi Norge
2015 Vespa Sprint 150
2015 Vespa GTS 300

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 31068
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Well, I'll repeat my offer.

IF someone wants to test a pair of Fat-Ducs on a 1TB V7, I can provide them.

Just monitor the spark plugs and head temps closely, maybe pull over and check the oil a couple of times too.

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Online RinkRat II

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2250
  • Lake Powell AZ
Greetings harryzet, and welcome to the forum, I re-read through the suggestions  and found nowhere  that you might leave the "cold start lever" partially on for the first kilometer or less to see if the enrichment would help the stalling. Although it's not a smallblock I have to do this on myV11 some mornings until I get out to the highway.
 By trying this it may lead to a better diagnosis for mapping or mechanical adjustments. Keep us posted.  :bike


     Paul :BEER:
A Miller in the hand is worth two in the fridge.

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 31068
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Greetings harryzet, and welcome to the forum, I re-read through the suggestions  and found nowhere  that you might leave the "cold start lever" partially on for the first kilometer or less to see if the enrichment would help the stalling. Although it's not a smallblock I have to do this on myV11 some mornings until I get out to the highway.
 By trying this it may lead to a better diagnosis for mapping or mechanical adjustments. Keep us posted.  :bike

FYI.

No cold start lever on the 1TB smallblocks. As I explained idle speed is completely controlled by the ECM through throttle control and, we believe, spark control.

The 2TB smallblocks HAD a "Fast Idle Lever" but it did nothing for cold start ENRICHMENT (which was again handled by the ECM based mostly on cylinder temp sensor input). All it did was physically hold the throttle plates open a tiny bit to produce a faster cold idle and help prevent stalling.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline Xlratr

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 858
  • (ex) Stelvio NTX, '78 Honda 750F2, '97 FXDWG
  • Location: near Hamburg, Germany

I like to fiddle with my bikes, too. Why leave well enough alone? The world would not be the same without adventurers and explorers...

Best of luck to you!

Absolutely! Motorbikes are toys! ☺


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

Offline freedom

  • Hatchling
  • **
  • Posts: 42
dear all
greetings from austria :-)



G'day mate! Lol sorry I couldn't resist.
"I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine." Bruce Lee

beetle

  • Guest
bike runs lean with serial exhaust and airfilter, this has not changed when i put on the k+n and the new exhaust. i have put in the serial air-filter yesterday and still it does not run smoothly on the first kilometers. thats why i asked for help here.

harryzet, please consider how the ECU functions. It modifies (trims) the fuel injections pulses based on feedback from the O2 sensor. It can take many kilometres for this to occur, and this requires steady throttle for best results.

You will not get an immediate change by restoring the stock air filter. You should also pull the main fuses or briefly disconnect the battery to reset the trims. This will restore the fueling to factory default settings.

To get to the bottom of this issue may take a bit of patience. When making changes that may affect how the bike runs, only do one thing, then note any differences.

I recommend restoring the bike to stock, then address the warm-up issue one step at a time. Once you have got a solution that works, make your mods one at a time. Patience!

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
Best quality vinyl available today. Easy application.
Advertise Here
 


NEW WILDGUZZI PRODUCT - Moto Guzzi Door Mat
Receive donation credit with door mat purchase!
Advertise Here