Author Topic: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's  (Read 19498 times)

Online rocker59

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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2015, 01:10:27 PM »
Speaking of premium money I just checked out the latest line of Harleys. Seems that out of the 36 models listed only 8 ( 6 Sportsters + the 500 and 750) come in below $16,000.  

Street Bob - $13,449.00
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/street-bob.html

Low Rider  - $14,199.00
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/low-rider.html

Fat Bob - $15,699.00
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/fat-bob.html

Wide Glide - $15,799.00
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/wide-glide.html


they do not even list the HP on the website. I defy anyone to find the HP listed on any Harley website.

they cannot even list the HP?  ~; 8) :D

I don't think their customers are spec sheet bench racers.  If they were, then the numbers would be there.

Since you're not an HD customer, why does it matter?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 01:21:00 PM by rocker59 »
Michael T.
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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2015, 02:09:47 PM »
I like the new technology machines of today for their ease of maintenance and reliability without doubt. My R1150R has near 190K miles and I have never had to do anything to the fueling at all and had very few failures of any kind. Just normal maintenance and ride. Once the 0's and 1's are figured out the electric carbs are bullet proof and easy to maintain. Manual carbs require some fiddling but once they are right, just like the electric ones they are spot on as far as smooth delivery and power. My '97 VFR is as good as it gets across the board and I have never had one bit of problem with any of the 4 VFR's I have owned with manual carbs.

 

On the other hand I wanted classic basic motorcycle to ride while I still can enjoy one. I had Norton, Triumph, in mind but ended up with a Tonti Guzzi (CX). I don't regret my choice. Its a raw basic motorcycle with no interlocks, no gagets. It handles very good and has enough power to raise my pulse on a twisty road. It delivers over 50 mpg uses little to no oil and has been 100% reliable. However the riding position is not good for those without a good threshold for pain on longer journeys. In short its what I was looking for, something organic.

 

If I had only one motorbike it would have to be something modern, but I am able to indulge myself with the sort of Walter Mitty part of my personality..to poc ka ta.

That's why I have an old rather new Guzzi.
 
My .02  :-)

mike


Online Lannis

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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2015, 02:24:40 PM »

I don't think their customers are spec sheet bench racers.  If they were, then the numbers would be there.

Since you're not an HD customer, why does it matter?

I've never looked at the horsepower rating of a bike that I've bought.   Never cared.   If I'm buying a 1000cc touring bike from a major manufacturer, what does it matter?

Just a number; one that's lied about, misrepresented, and too often used by both the manufacturer and the customer as a test of manhood of some kind.     

Some people like them, though, and that's OK, but often the manufacturer knows that their market doesn't care.   Bike's not going on the track ....

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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2015, 03:29:00 PM »
I don't think their customers are spec sheet bench racers.  If they were, then the numbers would be there.

They often make torque known.  My take is that, as we know, they sell bikes with very mildly tuned engines, opening the door to selling a lot of high performance parts.  Publishing the low stock HP numbers would not help sales, so they choose not to do that.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 03:31:24 PM by Triple Jim »
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Offline redrider90

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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2015, 09:03:55 PM »



I don't think their customers are spec sheet bench racers.  If they were, then the numbers would be there.

Since you're not an HD customer, why does it matter?

 ??? I am not sure what you point is about since I am not a HD customer, why does it matter (that they do not list HP figures). So I can only comment on it  if I am looking to buy? In which case I would be on a HD site bitching that I cannot find HP figures for the bikes.  :D I had 2 HDs and that was enough.
I guess more Guzzi customers are spec sheet bench racers because Guzzi lists the HP on all their bikes under Specs.
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Offline redrider90

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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2015, 09:10:41 PM »
They often make torque known.  My take is that, as we know, they sell bikes with very mildly tuned engines, opening the door to selling a lot of high performance parts.  Publishing the low stock HP numbers would not help sales, so they choose not to do that.


Exactly what I was thinking when I commented on the lack of HP numbers.
They do post the engine torque and they even post the "engine torque testing method"  which is called the "J1349" I wonder what that is.
 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 09:17:19 PM by redrider90 »
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Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2015, 09:15:29 PM »

Speaking of premium money I just checked out the latest line of Harleys. Seems that out of the 36 models listed only 8 ( 6 Sportsters + the 500 and 750) come in below $16,000. Out of those 28 left 13 of them cost more that $20,000.


<snip>

and they do not even list the HP on the website. I defy anyone to find the HP listed on any Harley website.

Are you sure on the prices? I know a few are up there, but even an RK was sub $20k last time I checked (this year).

As for HP. you have to back door it.

They publish stock vs. Screaming eagle accessorized dyno charts in the v Screaming Eagle Performance Accessories catalogs (they have for decades). So you can get that pdf off their website and get HP figures for most of their bikes.

You'll also occasionally find them in press releases or articles in their own magazine.
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Re:
« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2015, 09:23:40 PM »
PS, I've already found 2 Dynas below $16 - Street Bob $13.5k and Low Rider $14.2k.

Wait make that all Dynas except the bagger FLD are below $16.

Fat Bob $15.7k, Wide Glide $15.8k.

One Softail is below $16k

The RK is below $20k as are all Softails.

The Dressers are mostly low $20's but go as high as $27.

The only things more expensive are CVOs but comparing them is like comparing a Ford Raptor to a base F150_ they're not the same thing.
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Offline redrider90

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Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2015, 09:26:16 PM »
Are you sure on the prices? I know a few are up there, but even an RK was sub $20k last time I checked (this year).

As for HP. you have to back door it.

They publish stock vs. Screaming eagle accessorized dyno charts in the v Screaming Eagle Performance Accessories catalogs (they have for decades). So you can get that pdf off their website and get HP figures for most of their bikes.

You'll also occasionally find them in press releases or articles in their own magazine.

I actually used this site for pricing http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/6/2015/Buyers-Guide-Manufacturer/2015-Harley-Davidson-Buyers-Guide.aspx
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 09:33:21 PM by redrider90 »
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Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2015, 09:30:49 PM »
I had it up on their website and counted it out to make sure I had the numbers right. I sure didn't want to put it all up on WG. It would have taken a whole lotta space for nothing.
Well, look at post 104 I just went through it and you were looking at something other than just base MSRP.


Edit, but I see Rocket beat me to it.
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Offline redrider90

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Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #100 on: April 27, 2015, 09:33:54 PM »
Well, look at post 104 I just went through it and you were looking at something other than just base MSRP.

I used this site http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/6/2015/Buyers-Guide-Manufacturer/2015-Harley-Davidson-Buyers-Guide.aspx
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Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #101 on: April 27, 2015, 09:36:17 PM »

I used this site http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/6/2015/Buyers-Guide-Manufacturer/2015-Harley-Davidson-Buyers-Guide.aspx
Well that's just silly when Harley puts their prices on their own website:

http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home/motorcycles/tools/compare-bikes.html?version=desktop

;)


Edit - Actually your link wasn't bad. But you seem to have rounded up for your summary. And maybe more importantly it includes at least 6 very limited production CVOs and/or Trikes. Sorts skews the summary.
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Offline redrider90

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Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #102 on: April 27, 2015, 09:41:06 PM »
Well that's just silly when Harley puts their prices on their own website:


http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home/motorcycles/tools/compare-bikes.html?version=desktop

;)

Well this site lists all HDs from top to bottom on one page with the prices right off HD site. It made it a lot easier than looking up 36 different models. Not to mention it links to the specs sheet at the same time.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #103 on: April 27, 2015, 09:42:59 PM »
Well this site lists all HDs from top to bottom on one page with the prices right off HD site. It made it a lot easier than looking up 36 different models. Not to mention it links to the specs sheet at the same time.
Sorry, posting on my phone and can't keep editing before you respond.

From my last post

Edit - Actually your link wasn't bad. But you seem to have rounded up for your summary. And maybe more importantly it includes at least 6 very limited production CVOs and/or Trikes. Sorts skews the summary.
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Offline redrider90

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Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #104 on: April 27, 2015, 09:44:17 PM »
Well, look at post 104 I just went through it and you were looking at something other than just base MSRP.


Edit, but I see Rocket beat me to it.

Nope those are MSRP numbers.  The site I used was taking the base prices right off HD and quoting them as MSRP
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Online Kev m

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Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #105 on: April 27, 2015, 09:55:25 PM »
Nope those are MSRP numbers.  The site I used was taking the base prices right off HD and quoting them as MSRP
I see that now, but as Rocker and I pointed out it didn't seem that way because your summary was then incorrect.

Like you left 4 out of 5 Dyna models out of the sub $16k count which is true unless you rounded up or added in something other than base MSRP.

So it's 2 Streets, 6 Sportsters, 4 Dynas and 1 Softail (13 bikes that come in sub $16k).

9 come in between $16-20 including both v-rods, most Softails, and three baggers (Heritage Softail, Road King, and Switchback).

The only ones that come in above $20 are all 8 Glides (and most of them are below $25) or they are Trikes or limited eduction factory customs (CVOs) which are really a separate category (as I said earlier like a Ford Raptor or Dodge SRT).

It's a slightly different picture then you were painting. Though still largely premium, not that different from BMW, or arguably even Ducati in price structures.
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Online rocker59

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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2015, 10:15:49 PM »
Yep.

 
Michael T.
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Offline redrider90

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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #107 on: April 27, 2015, 10:22:51 PM »
Harvey , my guess is that like the guys who do the Sonic drive in commercials that live in Chicago and have probably never seen a Sonic , the guy that wrote the Street ad has never been on a MC  :D

  Dusty


I'll have you know I grew up in Chicago and crashed my first HD there. We didn't need no Sonics. We had true drive in Hamburger joints.  :D :D :D
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Offline redrider90

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Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2015, 11:00:45 PM »
I see that now, but as Rocker and I pointed out it didn't seem that way because your summary was then incorrect.

Like you left 4 out of 5 Dyna models out of the sub $16k count which is true unless you rounded up or added in something other than base MSRP.

So it's 2 Streets, 6 Sportsters, 4 Dynas and 1 Softail (13 bikes that come in sub $16k).

9 come in between $16-20 including both v-rods, most Softails, and three baggers (Heritage Softail, Road King, and Switchback).

The only ones that come in above $20 are all 8 Glides (and most of them are below $25) or they are Trikes or limited eduction factory customs (CVOs) which are really a separate category (as I said earlier like a Ford Raptor or Dodge SRT).

It's a slightly different picture then you were painting. Though still largely premium, not that different from BMW, or arguably even Ducati in price structures.



So next time I won't count with my fingers laying on the couch with my laptop on my belly while eating my lunch.  :food   :BEER:
You nit picked my numbers which were off  but missed the point of my post. I was responding to Goose who commented and I quote  "Guzzi's were built by people making decent wages, using parts made in Europe by folks making decent wages. Now they want premium money for non premium stuff. And they still cannot get it right out the door".

Seems the fellows at HD have a problem packing their parts.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqaAHQ3DCqM
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Online rocker59

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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2015, 11:26:07 PM »
I'll say good night with two words, "Moto Guzzi" (and a picture!)



 :bike
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Offline Arizona Wayne

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Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #110 on: April 28, 2015, 12:12:28 AM »

Speaking of premium money I just checked out the latest line of Harleys. Seems that out of the 36 models listed only 8 ( 6 Sportsters + the 500 and 750) come in below $16,000. Out of those 28 left 13 of them cost more that $20,000.
So the Harley line 13 bikes listed at or above $20K-$39K, 14 bikes listed $15K-$20K and the rest 9 $10k-$7K. Now here is what I call premium money. A 500 CC  coming in a whopping 489#s for $6700 (+$300 shipping and $50 for California emissions)   and they do not even list the HP on the website. I defy anyone to find the HP listed on any Harley website.

"When the street is where you live, it starts to live in you. True of a rider. True of a motorcycle. The look of the Harley-Davidson Street™ 750 and 500 motorcycles comes from the street. Born out of the custom tradition of tearing down a motorcycle to its
raw, minimal essence and letting the pure rebellion inherent in the lines of the machine come screaming through. This is the essential attitude. It doesn’t require much explanation."
OMG someone really wrote this and put it in an advertisement? And they cannot even list the HP?  ~; 8) :D




Actually I'm surprised that HD would post something like this.  Up to now their attitude from on top has been............"we don't sell motorcycles, we sell a lifestyle".......or is this just a new version of that?

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Re: Re: Re: Re: No interest in new MotoGuzzi's
« Reply #111 on: April 28, 2015, 07:08:37 AM »


So next time I won't count with my fingers laying on the couch with my laptop on my belly while eating my lunch.  :food   :BEER:
You nit picked my numbers which were off  but missed the point of my post. I was responding to Goose who commented and I quote  "Guzzi's were built by people making decent wages, using parts made in Europe by folks making decent wages. Now they want premium money for non premium stuff. And they still cannot get it right out the door".

Red, I'm sorry, I hope you didn't take my nit picking the wrong way. I didn't miss your point, which I don't disagree with, but simply objected to the skewed perspective caused by a few slight inaccuracies.

I felt it contributed too or possibly stemmed from a myth of HD pricing I've long seen presented (mostly, but not exclusively, by non-HD riders) over the years. So since we're on this tangent of pricing let's examine it closer.

Are GUZZI's and HARLEY'S PRICES "premium" or high?

I would argue that generally speaking they are right in the ballpark with many other brands. Though some of the Asian products will sometimes undercut them by a percentage, there are equally times where they are on the low end of the range.

It can be difficult to compare as some brands/models just don't have as many similarities.

But here is smattering of competitive product pricing across the Harley and Guzzi lines by brand's closest CC capacity motor and when possible by bike type/purpose/category (realizing some bikes just aren't in the same category as Harleys are primarily cruisers/tourers and not sports, adventure tourers etc.).

I left out some of the Sports from Triumph and Ducati brands because they are just so ridiculous to compare say a Street Triple to something remotely close in CCs in a Harley - it's like comparing a Alfa Romeo to a Chevy Truck at that point. Similarly I only picked a few of the Asian brand products that I felt more closely aligned in category/type and left out things from Dirt Bikes to SuperSports. And I didn't even try to account for all the "Cruisers", but I've done the Cruiser only comparison before and what you see here is mostly representative.

Highest in Category in RED
Lowest in Green


Beginner/Learner Bikes 750cc and smaller:

Street 500/750  - $6.8k/$7.5K
BMW G650GS, C650GT  - $7.9k, $10.5k
Honda CB500F - $5.8k


Smaller Bikes 700-900cc

Sportster 883L/N - $8.3/$8.4k
Guzzi V7 Stone/Special/Racer - $8.5k/$9.3k/$10.5k
BMW F700GS/F800GS/F800GS Adv/F800GT/F800R - $9.9k/$12.2k/$13.7k/$11.9k/$9.9k
Ducati Scrambler Icon/Classic/Full Throttle/Urban End - $8.5k/$9.9k/$9.9k/$9.9k
Triumph Bonnie Variants - Bonnie SE/America/T100 Black/Scrambler/T100/ - $8.0k/$8.4k/$8.9k/$9.1K/$9.4K/   (really could put some of these under 1200 Sporty too)
Honda Shadow 750/NC700X/Shadow Aero 750 - $7.5k/$7.8k/$8.2
Yamaha Bolt/Bolt R/Bolt C-Spec - $7.9k/$8.4K/$8.7k

1000-1200cc Standards/Sports
Sportster 1200 C/X/V/T - $10.7/$10.8/$10.9/$11.8k
Guzzi Griso 8V - $12.9k
BMW R1200R - $13.9k
Ducati Monster 821 Dark/821/1200/1200S - $10.9k/$11.5K/$13.7k/$15.9k
Indian Scout - $10.9k
Triumph Bonnie Thruxton/America LT- $9.5k/$9.8K
Honda CB1100X - $10.4k

Mid-Range/Larger Cruisers/Sport Tourers/Standards:
Dyna Street Bob/Low Rider/Fat Bob/Wide Glide/Switchback - $14.2k/$14.2k/$15.7k/$15.8k/$16.9k
Guzzi Norge GT 8V - $16.2k
BMW R9T - $14.5k (or maybe this should go under Vrod, there's no real direct comparison)
BMW - R1200RT - $17.7k (Arguably Switchback comparison)
Triumph Tbird/Tbird Storm/Tbird Comm/Tbird LT - $13.5k/$14.7k/$15.7K/$16.7k


1200-1400cc Sport Cruisers/Muscle Bikes
V-Rod Variants - $16.2k/$16.6k
Guzzi Cali 1400C - $15.5k (Could compare this with the Dynas too)
BMW - K1300S - $15.8k
Ducati Diavel/Diavel Carbon/Diavel Titanium - $17.9k*/$21.4k/$27.9k (that last, along with the Panigale really compare better to the CVO models)
Triumph RIII - $14.9k
Honda Valkyrie - $17.9k*

*The Diavel Carbon/Titanium just kinda corrupt the results, well, that's true on a lot of these that an oddity in the category is the highest.

Tough to compare w/ some brands, but I'll call Softails "a specialty for Harley, and the following a specialty for some of the below"):
SPECIALTY BIKES
Softail Slim/Fat Boy Lo/Fat Boy/Deluxe/Heritage/Breakout  - $15.9k/$17.5k/$17.7k/$18.1k/$18.3k/$18.6k/
Guzzi Stelvio NTX - $15.9k
R1200GS/R1200GS Adv - $16.2k/$18.3K
Indian Dark Horse/Classic/Vintage - $16.9k/$18.9K/$20.9k
Triumph Explorer/Explorer XR - $15.7k/$17.2k

FULL BOAT TOURERS
Glide Touring Variants Road King/Street Glide/Street Glide Special/Ultra/Ultra Low/Ultra Limited/Ultra Limtd Low   - $18.5k/$20.6k/$22.9k/$23.2k/$24.4k/$26.1k/$27k
Guzzi Cali 1400T - $18.5k
BMW - K1600GT/GTL/GTL Exclu - $21.7k/$23.9k/$29.9k*
Indian - Chieftain/Roadmaster - $22.9k/$26.9k
Triumph RIII T/Trophy  - $16.9k/$18.9k
Honda GW F6B/F6B Delux/GW 1800 - $20.5k/$21.5k/$23.9k


* Maybe the GTL Exclusive is getting to a level like the CVO's and should be eliminated, as which point the Ultra Limited becomes most expensive, but you'll see the rest listed are quite competitive

Now I fully recognize that many of these bikes could be fit into other categories and the comparisons high/low might come out a little different. And any one person might not cross-shop a number bikes in a given category, or might chose to cross-shop across my categories. I admit it's imperfect. But I do think it gives an idea of the relative product lines and the relative prices. That generally speaking Triumph and some of the Asian brands may be slightly lower than Harley, Guzzi, BMW and other "premium" brands. But I also see that Harley and Guzzi are, more often than not, right in the ballpark.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 07:23:02 AM by Kev m »
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