Author Topic: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths  (Read 7229 times)

Offline leafman60

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8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« on: April 24, 2015, 07:10:00 AM »
I know we've seen a few posts here on this topic but can any of you provide more info.

Pete and others, do you have something more that you can share on this?

http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/clutch-thrust-bearing-on-8vs.7725/#post-86113

Can anyone provide more information about the infamous double bearing tech bulletin? What engine numbers did this affect?

I cannot quite figure the logic in this "fix." If there was a bearing problem, I would think simply replacing the one bearing would be the fix.  Also, do the new 8V's come with two of these bearings or one?

Regarding the added length to the pushing mechanism that the extra bearing creates, there may be a "stop" on the pushrod intermediate piece that delegates added clutch pressure only to the pushrod and not the added items between the slave cylinder and the pushrod assembly.

I'd like to know more about this.  With my bike closing in on 35,000 miles, I may be noticing some wear or breaking-in of my pushrod assembly and need to add one of great length.  I have no bearing noise or clutch groan etc., though.

Vasco DG

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 07:38:21 AM »
Well David on this you are as much at a loss as me.

I'll try and find the original tech bulletin but it may of been one of the weird ones I only got as hard copy.

Thing is a lot of noise was made about pushrod length. I can see to logic but was always somewhat confused by why there would be such comparatively large discrepancies in plate or flywheel thickness. It's not like there is any angular actuation that could vary. It's all direct with the slave piston acting on the outer body.

Then they announce this adaptation with an extra thrust race! Why? If there was a problem with loading on the bearing adding another race doesn't effect that. All it does is halve the rotational speed! At the same time it adds at least the difference in length of the pushrod X2 adjustments but no mention was made in the bulletin of checking the pushrod length! Just suff a new bearing, (And identical thickness outer body.) in and be done with it.

It reeked to me of crap engineering and a 'Panic' "We have a problem", "Chicken with head cut off" problem solving but what would I know!

Certainly the early clutches had a much heavier spring, (Believe me, my great '08 bag of shite has all the 'Bad Stuff' and the clutch pull is almost in Laverda Jota territory!) but mine in this, as in so many other ways, refuses to go wrong. I tend to think that with at least some of the failures the cause would be that the bike's owners, (Who would all have left arms like rock lobsters!) sat at a standstill with the clutch pulled in at lights and the like.

As it stands though I have all the pushrods, the pushrod measuring tool, and at least one 'Update kit' for the thrust system gently turning to rust in my toolbox. I've yet to use any of them. Annoyingly I also have an early model 'Bullworker' clutch in my spares selection. I've never had to use that either and despite the fact that the new clutch is a much happier thing pull-wise I'm enough of a 'Red Suspender' guy to mean that when the original finally shits itself in my bike I'll probably replace it with the same, original and basically onerous and heavy unit because I own it and therefore it is CHEAP! :D

Pete

Offline leafman60

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 08:31:10 AM »
Thanks.

I'd like to see what that original bulletin says and to which bikes it applies.

The bearings are one thing. The pushrod length may be a totally different issue. I can understand how, over long use, these spinning parts can slightly wear-in to the point of needing adjustment, a longer pushrod.

Adding a bearing because of a bearing problem may not affect the length of the pushrod mechanism.

Part number GU14086000 "inner body" appears to have a collar that may serve as a stop to restrict the depth of plunge for the pushrod.  If this is so, adding another bearing would only push the hydraulic slave piston back further in its bore and not cause the pushrod to plunge deeper into the clutch mechanism. Without looking at the actual pieces, I can't make a determination about this.

This theory seems logical, though. Otherwise adding 4 MM of shim to the servo mechanism with the addition of a second bearing should cause excessive preload on the clutch pushrod mechanism.

I'm going to pull mine apart and check it.  I want to check my swingarm bearing lube again anyway after 15,000 miles on my first re-lube job. I'm curious about it too.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 08:33:11 AM by leafman60 »

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 04:24:27 PM »
It was in the 2010 technical training doument

Vehicles from 23/09/2008 (Stelvio: ZGULZ00088M112646 Griso 8V: ZGULSE0068M112128)
are produced with the new components and do not necessitate any modification.

SOLUTIONS:
1) Replace the thrust bearing kit (detail 14 in the image, indicated by the blue arrow).
Order p/n 976696 complete with spring cup, the two complete roller bearings and the
intermediate metal washer. Before assembling the components described above,
lubricate with Agip GREASE SM2. NB: before delivering the vehicle to the client, also
grease the clutch lever pin on the left hand side of the handlebar
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 04:24:27 PM »

Offline leafman60

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 07:39:27 PM »
It was in the 2010 technical training doument

Vehicles from 23/09/2008 (Stelvio: ZGULZ00088M112646 Griso 8V: ZGULSE0068M112128)
are produced with the new components and do not necessitate any modification.

SOLUTIONS:
1) Replace the thrust bearing kit (detail 14 in the image, indicated by the blue arrow).
Order p/n 976696 complete with spring cup, the two complete roller bearings and the
intermediate metal washer. Before assembling the components described above,
lubricate with Agip GREASE SM2. NB: before delivering the vehicle to the client, also
grease the clutch lever pin on the left hand side of the handlebar

Thanks, Paul.  So, 2012 model year Stelvio bikes are not affected by the bearing issue?

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2015, 04:29:03 AM »
Thanks, Paul.  So, 2012 model year Stelvio bikes are not affected by the bearing issue?


 Not according to the note, but it still can be that something isn't 100%  be it the bearing or clutch itself. I see now that mine is in affected range. But my clutch is fine althogh it needs more fore then the newer models.
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





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Offline leafman60

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2015, 05:40:31 AM »
Not according to the note, but it still can be that something isn't 100%  be it the bearing or clutch itself. I see now that mine is in affected range. But my clutch is fine althogh it needs more fore then the newer models.

"Vehicles from 23/09/2008 (Stelvio: ZGULZ00088M112646 Griso 8V: ZGULSE0068M112128)
are produced with the new components and do not necessitate any modification."


Am I reading this incorrectly?

???

Offline Phang

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2015, 11:48:10 PM »
What a timely thread.

I am helping a friend last week as his MY2008 Stelvio has an engine oil leak from the bell housing area.

The bike mileage is about 30,000km (18,750 miles), thrust bearing and washers of the clutch push rod has no visible wear. The bike is supposed to have one of the "earlier parts" as its VIN is way earlier than the range mentioned in the tech bulletin. I don't remember he ever mention about stiffness and noise about his clutch.

He has ordered a new clutch friction plate and planning to replace the old one, the old one is just 0.1mm thinner than the new one (4.5mm vs 4.6mm).We read about the different clutch push rod lengths in the manual and had a discussion. Both of us agreed that the minute difference in the thickness of the new clutch plate is negligible and should be compensated by the slave cylinder piston, we will reuse the same clutch push rod.

A little side track but I believe it is relevant. One end of the clutch push rod has two machined grooves. This should goes to the slave cylinder end or the diaphragm spring cup end?

We are going to pull the rear main flange next week and see what is going on there.

Phang







« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 10:48:09 AM by Phang »
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2015, 03:24:04 AM »
"Vehicles from 23/09/2008 (Stelvio: ZGULZ00088M112646 Griso 8V: ZGULSE0068M112128)
are produced with the new components and do not necessitate any modification."


Am I reading this incorrectly?

???

 Well how do you understand that?  I read: old bikes have a problem, ones produced after that VIN are ok.  And mine is in the range and ok:-)
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Vasco DG

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 06:11:31 AM »
Tick list.

1.) Is your bike's clutch working OK?

Yes-

No-

If Yes? Take no action.

If No? Find out why and fix it.

2.) There is no two.

End of tick list.

Pete

jlburgess

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2015, 02:56:51 PM »
What a timely thread.

I am helping a friend last week as his MY2008 Stelvio has an engine oil leak from the bell housing area.

The bike mileage is about 30,000km (18,750 miles), thrust bearing and washers of the clutch push rod has no visible wear. The bike is supposed to have one of the "earlier parts" as its VIN is way earlier than the range mentioned in the tech bulletin. I don't remember he ever mention about stiffness and noise about his clutch.

He has ordered a new clutch friction plate and planning to replace the old one, the old one is just 0.1mm thinner than the new one (4.5mm vs 4.6mm).We read about the different clutch push rod lengths in the manual and had a discussion. Both of us agreed that the minute difference in the thickness of the new clutch plate is negligible and should be compensated by the slave cylinder piston, we will reuse the same clutch push rod.

A little side track but I believe it is relevant. One end of the clutch push rod has two machined grooves. This should goes to the slave cylinder end or the diaphragm spring cup end?

We are going to pull the rear main flange next week and see




Phang,
Check the lower 2 flange bolts.  They were too long on the early 8V motors and bottomed out.  Mine came loose and started leaking oil at 16k miles.  Make sure the pushrod is installed correctly also or it will spin and ruin the pressure plate.  Don't ask me how I know this! ::(
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 03:00:57 PM by jlburgess »

Offline leafman60

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2015, 08:33:08 PM »
Well how do you understand that?  I read: old bikes have a problem, ones produced after that VIN are ok.  And mine is in the range and ok:-)

Yes, that is my understanding too.

I read your earlier post wrong.  Applied the negative to a negative and got a positive when I should have only considered the negative.  Got it?

Offline leafman60

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2015, 08:35:52 PM »
What a timely thread.

I am helping a friend last week as his MY2008 Stelvio has an engine oil leak from the bell housing area.

The bike mileage is about 30,000km (18,750 miles), thrust bearing and washers of the clutch push rod has no visible wear. The bike is supposed to have one of the "earlier parts" as its VIN is way earlier than the range mentioned in the tech bulletin. I don't remember he ever mention about stiffness and noise about his clutch.

He has ordered a new clutch friction plate and planning to replace the old one, the old one is just 0.1mm thinner than the new one (4.5mm vs 4.6mm).We read about the different clutch push rod lengths in the manual and had a discussion. Both of us agreed that the minute difference in the thickness of the new clutch plate is negligible and should be compensated by the slave cylinder piston, we will reuse the same clutch push rod.

A little side track but I believe it is relevant. One end of the clutch push rod has two machined grooves. This should goes to the slave cylinder end or the diaphragm spring cup end?

We are going to pull the rear main flange next week and see what is going on there.

Phang




I have not examined these parts but I would suggest adhering to the factory-specified procedure of measuring the protrusion of the pushrod and adjusting accordingly. I'm thinking this collar on the "inner body" may be changing our logic on how this system works. When in doubt, read the manual.

Offline Phang

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2015, 03:16:37 AM »
Phang,
Check the lower 2 flange bolts.  They were too long on the early 8V motors and bottomed out.  Mine came loose and started leaking oil at 16k miles.  Make sure the pushrod is installed correctly also or it will spin and ruin the pressure plate.  Don't ask me how I know this! ::(

We pulled the rear flange yesterday (it was tight). I measured the lower two bolts according to the method specified in the bulletin.

It was measured 8.35mm, the bolts are too long obviously.



The shorter GU98084422 bolt that Guzzi specified in the bulletin is M8 X 22mm, 3 mm shorter than the original M8 X 25mm flange bolts. Not quite short enough to bring the measurement [A] down to less than 8mm... dilemma, dilemma... We will probably go for M8 X 20mm bolts.

I have a couple questions about the flange bolts:-

1. I found the two lower flange bolts bottomed into a blind hole, do I still need sealant when I re-install them?

2. I had the impression only the two lower flange bolts are too long, I didn't even bother to measure the rest. What about the remaining six bolts? do I reuse the old M8 X 25mm bolts or do I replace them for shorter bolts too?


2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Offline Phang

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2015, 03:28:54 AM »

I have not examined these parts but I would suggest adhering to the factory-specified procedure of measuring the protrusion of the pushrod and adjusting accordingly. I'm thinking this collar on the "inner body" may be changing our logic on how this system works. When in doubt, read the manual.

I hope you don't mind a little off track by asking about the flange bolts above.

I agree with you, if Guzzi engineers bother to mention this in the manual and took the effort to manufacture the rod in a few different length and also the special measuring tool. I believe it matters.

Pete, do you mind renting the clutch rod measuring tool (020678Y) to me for a week or two?  :bow

Phang
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Vasco DG

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 03:34:18 AM »
I'll pop the tool and the pushrods in the bag when I send your lock plates. Not rental though, just send 'em back when you're finished

Offline Phang

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 03:37:21 AM »
I'll pop the tool and the pushrods in the bag when I send your lock plates. Not rental though, just send 'em back when you're finished

Thanks a million Pete, beers on me when we meet  :BEER:
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Offline leafman60

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 06:13:50 AM »
You are on the right track, Phang.

There's certaonly no use in fixing something if it's not broken but, while you have everything apart, you may as well be certain everything is put together correctly.

I also suggest you check this recent thread about adjusting the master cylinder stroke.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75222.0


Offline Phang

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2015, 06:52:39 AM »
You are on the right track, Phang.

There's certaonly no use in fixing something if it's not broken but, while you have everything apart, you may as well be certain everything is put together correctly.

I also suggest you check this recent thread about adjusting the master cylinder stroke.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75222.0



I am following quite a number of interesting topics in this forum, your thread about adjusting the clutch lever pin is one of them.
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

jlburgess

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2015, 11:20:50 AM »


My understanding is the problem only effects the lower two bolts but it doesn't hurt to check the others.  My dealer replaced the entire rear flange also.  It wasn't a very expensive part surprisingly.

Offline Phang

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2015, 04:19:47 AM »


My understanding is the problem only effects the lower two bolts but it doesn't hurt to check the others.  My dealer replaced the entire rear flange also.  It wasn't a very expensive part surprisingly.

I measured all the eight bolts, all are threaded into blind hole and all are too long when measured using the guzzi way above. We replaced all the eight bolts to the shorter type.

Today we made some good progress, replaced clutch disc, replace camchain sprocket shaft bearing cap o-ring to viton type, replaced rear main oil seal, o-ring on the flange and fitted back the gearbox (transmission).

The lump will go back to the frame next week  :BEER:

2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Offline Phang

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2015, 10:53:49 PM »
Oh yes, the clutch push rod end with two machined grooves goes to the slave cylinder end. It is how it was installed from the factory on this Stelvio.

Phang
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 11:05:30 PM by Phang »
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Vasco DG

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2015, 12:27:03 AM »
Pushrod, plates and tool went out today.

Pete

Offline Phang

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Re: 8V Clutch Actuation Bearings and Pushrod Lengths
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2015, 12:32:18 AM »
Pushrod, plates and tool went out today.

Pete

Thank Pete, we learnt a lot (laughter and swears) from getting our hands on the engine. Very educational  ;-T
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

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