NE Regional 188 derailment

[Nic in Western NYS]

Engineer entered a sharp curve at 106mph, then applied maximum emergency braking while in the curve, slowing the train to 102mph when the data recorder stops.  On two wheels, if we find ourselves too hot in a curve, we lean more, avoid any temptation to panic brake and lean some more.  On rails you can't lean into the turn.  My question is, would the application of maximum braking while very hot in a sharp curve destabilize the train and increase its chances of derailment?

[boatdetective]

Hmmmm-  I don't think a train can high side.

[Two Checks]

Why not? They darn sure won't low side.

[Wayne Orwig]

In motorcycle terms a high side requires a tire, usually the rear, to slide out of the line of travel. Then to suddenly regain traction and violently return to the normal line of travel. That causes the top of the motorcycle to suddenly lean the wrong way and toss off the poor soul on the seat.
How would you apply that to something on rails?

[redrider]

Looking at the photos of the scene, I see the rear of the train in worse shape. Any-one play crack the whip lately? Water skiing comes to mind. The train is similar to our bikes-narrow track vs. height. This is exactly why countersteering works. Centrifugal force causes the weight to roll to the outside or opposite the steering input. Cars try to roll over in turns but track width fights it and the car turns in the direction of steering input. Those trucks that loose it in curves probably used the brakes which caused a weight shift forward and out. Nailing the throttle sometimes helps.

Tomorrow we will discuss Polar Moment of Inertia.

[LaMojo]

I imagine at that speed, even with concrete ties, the rails shifted. Too much mass to contain from trying to go in a straight line at that speed. The engineer already has a lawyer.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Trains use air brakes, which have slow transmission times, measured in seconds even for a short Amtrak train. Thus while the wheels of the lead car are already locked up, for seconds the cars at the rear of the train have no braking. After all the brakes are applied, it will also take seconds to release them. That's the recipe for an accordianed train on it's side and off the tracks.

[HDGoose]

Engineer will need a team of lawyers. Not sure why he allowed the train to attain that speed in that area.

[Dean Rose]

They need two people up there in the front, one to watch the other idiot.

Dean

[Lannis]

Engineer will need a team of lawyers. Not sure why he allowed the train to attain that speed in that area.

Betcha there's an iPad or cell phone involved ..... !

Lannis

[PeteS]

I think it was speed and the high center of gravity that caused the train to leave the tracks. Traction would not come into play here. Most high speed passenger trains including the Acela employ technology that tilts the cars inward in turns. The track would also be super elevated (banked). Not sure if this train had that technology but given the speed it probably did. There is obviously a limit though that this train exceeded.

Pete

[Dilliw]

Engineer will need a team of lawyers. Not sure why he allowed the train to attain that speed in that area.

Casey Jones (Garcia version).

[Two Checks]

In motorcycle terms a high side requires a tire, usually the rear, to slide out of the line of travel. Then to suddenly regain traction and violently return to the normal line of travel. That causes the top of the motorcycle to suddenly lean the wrong way and toss off the poor soul on the seat.
How would you apply that to something on rails?

It refers to the direction of the vehicle in relation to the turn. Flip to the outside-high side. A train won't roll to the inside of the turn.

[Late to the party]

Taking a commuter train into a turn at over 100mph? How much you wanna bet "Operator Error" was involved?

[LaMojo]

Locomotives have two sets of brake controls: one for the cars, the other for the loco.  Brakes for the cars are applied first.  Each car- passenger or freight- has an air reservoir that comes into play when the engineer dumps the air, so each car has, more or less, equal braking power. There are systems being developed and install now that will take over engine controls if the engineer is operating out of the perimeters set by the railroads- PTC.  Of course, the Unions have to be dealt with of implementing changes such as in cab cameras.    

[HDGoose]

Locomotives have two sets of brake controls: one for the cars, the other for the loco.  Brakes for the cars are applied first.  Each car- passenger or freight- has an air reservoir that comes into play when the engineer dumps the air, so each car has, more or less, equal braking power. There are systems being developed and install now that will take over engine controls if the engineer is operating out of the perimeters set by the railroads- PTC.  Of course, the Unions have to be dealt with of implementing changes such as in cab cameras.    

I worked on the PTC project for CSX. PTC is far from implemented. Only a few test scenarios have been completed. Trains are still under engineer control.

[rocker59]

Casey Jones (Garcia version).

Drivin' that train
High on Cocaine
Casey Jones you'd bettah
Watch yo speed

[Joe A.]

Betcha there's an iPad or cell phone involved ..... !

Lannis

my first thought exactly!

[Lannis]

my first thought exactly!

If ISIS, Q-fever, wild animals, or atmospheric poisons were killing young mothers, babies, or recent high school graduates at the rate that cell phone addiction is killing them, there would be a national outcry that would reach the moon, and whatever was killing them would be made extinct or made totally socially unacceptable, like incest.

But given that it's cell and texting devices, which MILLIONS are addicted to, nobody says nothin'.   Except a few of us here, apparently.

Lannis

[Dilliw]

If ISIS, Q-fever, wild animals, or atmospheric poisons were killing young mothers, babies, or recent high school graduates at the rate that cell phone addiction is killing them, there would be a national outcry that would reach the moon, and whatever was killing them would be made extinct or made totally socially unacceptable, like incest.

But given that it's cell and texting devices, which MILLIONS are addicted to, nobody says nothin'.   Except a few of us here, apparently.

Lannis

Wild animals are acceptable Lannis :)

The few of us here know about the devices because we see the "cell phone weave" or the head down while driving that has infected many of the cars we come in proximity with.  From the perch of a motorcycle it's obvious but from the seat of another cage you somehow become oblivious (or you have your head down too).

[rocker59]

this is probably another case where a law requiring phones disabled while moving above a specific speed would've prevented a bunch of death and destruction.

the GPS technology is built into every phone that would allow them to be locked when moving above a set speed.

yes, this would inconvenience millions of passengers who are not behind the controls of cars, trucks, trains, busses, etc.  But I don't care.

the human addiction to smart devices is epidemic.  And, it's causing a lot of collateral damage. 

I don't really care if you harm or kill yourself with your phone.  I just don't want you to be able to harm, kill, or inconvenience me because of your phone use while moving.

[stormshearon]

According to reports - all electronic devices were put away and not being used by the engineer at the time of the incident. So no cell\iPad\etc. involved.

[Joe A.]

According to reports - all electronic devices were put away and not being used by the engineer at the time of the incident. So no cell\iPad\etc. involved.

Encouraging!

[Lannis]

According to reports - all electronic devices were put away and not being used by the engineer at the time of the incident. So no cell\iPad\etc. involved.

Doped, drunk, or asleep, then.   How else do you let a train get up to 106 MPH without noticing that it's happening?   It would be rocking and knocking over our rackety rails, level crossings .... and they don't have the 80 - 110 acceleration times of a ZX-14, it would have taken a LONG time between "normal" and "... .duh, what's goin' on here ... ?"   Yep, I'm sure he's lawyered up and they're telling him to say "I don't remember nothin' ... Some Other Dude Done It ...."

Lannis

[rocker59]

Doped, drunk, or asleep, then.   How else do you let a train get up to 106 MPH without noticing that it's happening?   It would be rocking and knocking over our rackety rails, level crossings .... and they don't have the 80 - 110 acceleration times of a ZX-14, it would have taken a LONG time between "normal" and "... .duh, what's goin' on here ... ?"   Yep, I'm sure he's lawyered up and they're telling him to say "I don't remember nothin' ... Some Other Dude Done It ...."

Lannis

Welded rail and concrete ties don't make the rocking and knocking noises.

[rocker59]

Interesting:  https://www.mapbox.com/blog/amtrak-derailment/

Except for this one curve, the train was in the range of speeds of other trains on this route.

The "106" icon is where the train crashed.