V7 Classic fueling issues after warmed up

[lovemyguzzi75]

Hey Guys, I've got a 2011 V7 Classic that I love but over the last year it's developed a fueling issue that's driving me a bit crazy. I've tried just about everything I can find here to fix the problem, but no luck. My dealer has no idea either. So here goes...

The bike is great at first (after a breif warmup) and behaves as you would expect.
- After about 15 minutes it starts to develop a rough idle and wants to die a little at intersections.
- After about 30 minutes I have to hold the throttle at about 1500 rpms in order to keep it from dying at lights.
- By 45 minutes it begins to surge at higher rpms.
- By an hour It's surging at all rpms and requires me to hold the rpms at 2k at lights to prevent it from dying. At this point it's rideable, but very unpleasant.

This problem first appeared 9 months ago in the summer, and was fairly minor and only happened on long multi-hour rides. I thought is was a summer hot engine lean condition or something. But it has gotten steadily much worse. Here is what I have done:

1) Canisterectimy
2) Repeatedly removed gas cap during rides (no effect)
3) O2 manipulator (helped with cold starts, but not this)
4) Replaced Fuel Filter
5) Replaces 02 sensor

To me, it really seems like a fueling issue. If I put the choke on, it runs a bit better.

I'm not used to EFI bikes, so feel at a loss for how to deal with a fueling problem. At this point my only thought is that maybe the engine temp sensor is bad, and as the bike heats up, the ECM isn't getting the correct reading, and getting the mix wrong. Any thought would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!

[lovemyguzzi75]

Thanks Dusty, The problem was already pretty bad by the time I got the manipulator, but I'll pop it off and see anything changes anyway. Thanks, Ben

[guzzisteve]

When was the last time the valves were set or the TPS was reset?

All the choke is, is a throttle advance. Brings up idle base. No effect going down the road.

The shop have it on the computer & check sensors?

[M0T0Geezer]

My 2004 Breva 750 was bought in 2012 with 6000 miles.

It was a beautiful but ill tempered ride.  Bucking spitting surging bad mileage popping dying POS with a Power Commander and O2 "Optimizer."  But still I loved it.

Took off the PC and O2O then sent the ECU to Todd @ Guzzi Tech for a reflash.  That turned an Evil Woman into a Heart Of Gold.  Best money I ever spent was on that ECU reflash.

30,000 miles later I am still in love with the Breva.

[lovemyguzzi75]

Thanks guys,

The bike only has 6K miles on it. I bough it from someone last summer who basically never rode it.

I've been meaning to do the valves, I've noticed that the right side has bit of chatter to it.

No one has touched the TPS since the factory, pretty sure.

Unfortunately, the dealer is over an hour from here and they don't seem all that eager to help unless the clock is running. My phone call with them was not that helpful.

Does anyone know if the ECU has a standard OBD2 connector. I wonder if I could connect and get the sensor reading myself? I've been meaning to get a OBD2 scanner.

Thanks MOTOGeezer, I'll look into a reflash as well. I really didn't want to have to go the whole power commander route.

[jackson]

There is a high probability that the valves ARE out of adjustment AND the TPS needs resetting. 
I think that if you get those two items taken care of, your bike will run fine. 

[guzzisteve]

You don't need a scanner, just download GuzziDiag and get a set of cables ($25) you can see all the sensors. AND reset the TPS.

It won't set your valves for you though.

http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

[lovemyguzzi75]

Thanks Jackson and Guzzisteve,

I'll check into both those things. Valves are no problem. I'll download GuzziDiag, get the cables and let you know what happens.

Thanks!

[Vasco DG]

Unfortunately, the dealer is over an hour from here and they don't seem all that eager to help unless the clock is running. My phone call with them was not that helpful.


Thanks MOTOGeezer, I'll look into a reflash as well. I really didn't want to have to go the whole power commander route.

The dealer is reluctant to try and *Fix* your bike over the phone and expects payment! Outrageous!

How about taking off all the aftermarket crap you've put on it, taking it to someone who knows what they're doing and getting them to fix it? The only sensible thing so far is your reluctance to waste money on an un-necessary PC.

Pete

[lovemyguzzi75]

Hi Pete,

Actually, I just picked up the bike from the dealer after spending $1200 on new tires and fixing my leaking final drive. I thought the problem had gone away and I made the mistake of not asking about this problem when I dropped it off in the winter (been waiting for backordered final drive parts since then).

After getting someone to drive me out there and riding the bike back I called them to ask if they had any thoughts about the problem. Not unreasonable after dropping $1200 on some work. I'm not asking for free service.

I'm happy to take "all the aftermarket crap" off that you refer to, which is an O2 manipulator.

What I'm hoping for is a better understanding of this problem and how to fix future problems. I've greatly enjoyed working on all my carbed bikes in the past, and I would like to be able to have that same pleasure with my V7.

Thanks, Ben

[Vasco DG]

OK, so when did the problem begin? Did it pre-date all modifications/changes? Or did it start after things had been messed with? Let's try and get some sort of baseline. At the moment we have a bike that has had its charcoal canister removed? What was done with the assorted hoses? Did the problem begin to manifest itself shortly thereafter?

The wretched 'Optimiser'? Was this added to try and combat the issue or was it simply added because you thought it was a good idea?

Have you made any other changes to the bike? Has it got aftermarket mufflers? Has it got an aftermarket air filter?

You've stated that you don't know when the valves were adjusted last or even if they have been. So what other aspects of its servicing have been neglected?

Look, people here are more than willing to try and help but without knowing the whole story it's like throwing darts at a board blindfolded.

Pete

[lovemyguzzi75]

Thank you Pete,

Yeah, I understand that there's a lot of possibilities here and I didn't explain what I've done in complete detail. So here goes:

I bought the bike with 1000 miles on it last July. Those miles had been done over the course of 3-4 years, so the bike mostly sat for that time. The bike was also, completely stock.

After buying the bike I put about 5000 miles on it the following 4 months. I love that bike!

The first time I noticed any issue was on a couple rides from NJ (where I live) to NYC. For reference, this happened around 2500 miles or so on hot days in July. First I noticed some studdering on the highway. It felt like the bike was missing a little bit. Later in the city at a light the bike studdered and stalled.

I wrote it off to hot weather and what I was told was a bike set to run super lean for epa standards.

The problem got worse and the studdering on the highway became annoying and quite distracting. Up until this point the bike is still completely stock. It seemed like the bike was starved of fuel, and I thought perhaps since the bike had been so lightly used by the previous owner, that maybe they had cogged the fuel filter with bad fuel. So I replaced the fuel filter.

The problem continued and continued to get worse. By about 3500 miles I was having trouble on trips longer than 2 hours. I remember a trip near bear mountain that I got concerned that I might get stranded (I did not).

It was around that time that I ordered the O2 manipulator and installed it. At first I thought it improved matters. But the studdering/stalling returned soon enough.

It was a few hundred miles after that when I removed the canister and all associated hoses. I can't remember the full detail at this point but I followed someone's tutorial and it seemed consistent with what I've done on other bikes.

So the problem, as I see it,  is one that has been one that has been steadily getting worse. My attempts to resolve it have not had much effect. I'm very happy to remove the O2 manipulator and will do so since it clearly is not serving a useful function.

The suggestions that it could be my valves and/or tps going out of adjustment seems to be quite plausible and are both things that should be checked regardless. I'll be looking into that next week when I get the chance.

[Vasco DG]

OK, so the problem pre-dates the changes. Good. That gives us a baseline.

Firstly re-installing the charcoal canister won't be necessary but it is important that the two lines to the inlet manifolds be blocked off otherwise they will be drawing air which will upset the mixture.

Next, remove the optimiser. You can re-install it later if you wish but at the moment it is just another red-herring being thrown into the mix to confuse us.

Thirdly, adjust the valves and balance the throttle bodies. You'll need Guzzidiag to re-set the TPS but you can clear the fuel trims simply by disconnecting the battery briefly. Guzzidiag will also allow you to check for any active or memorised errors.

Fling a new pair of spark plugs at it. Twin TB Smallblocks are cruel on plugs and with such low mileage will of been asked to ignite crappy old fuel on several occasions.

My wild stab-in-the-dark is fouled plugs and perhaps a lamda sensor issue but the first thing to do is set everything back as close to stock as possible and look for a cause. Until then it's all pure guesswork.

Pete

[lovemyguzzi75]

Thanks Pete, This is great.

I've downloaded Guzzidiag and have cables set to arrive Tuedsay. I'll hit all the things you suggested.

Hopefully by sometime Wednesday I'll have something to report. Will let you know.

Thanks again, Ben

[sign216]

To me, it really seems like a fueling issue. If I put the choke on, it runs a bit better.

My V7 had clogged fuel injectors after 3 yrs and 10k miles.   The injectors are easy to remove, and I sent them to RC Engineering of Cal. for cleaning and a report.   Not saying this is the problem,  but it can't hurt.

Also, if it runs better w the choke on, perhaps there's an air leak in the intake.  The metal joint between the cyl and manifold often has a gap.  You can check it with carb cleaner, i.e. spray it during idle, and if the rpms change then you've found the leak.  That happened to me as well.

[lovemyguzzi75]

Yep, I realize that now about my comment in regards to the choke. I was a bit misguided.

It really only made it better in so much as it lifted the idle and prevented stalling at intersections. It really had no effect on the surging at higher rpms.

Sorry for the diversion!

[kevdog3019]

My V7 had clogged fuel injectors after 3 yrs and 10k miles.   The injectors are easy to remove, and I sent them to RC Engineering of Cal. for cleaning and a report.   Not saying this is the problem,  but it can't hurt.

Also, if it runs better w the choke on, perhaps there's an air leak in the intake.  The metal joint between the cyl and manifold often has a gap.  You can check it with carb cleaner, i.e. spray it during idle, and if the rpms change then you've found the leak.  That happened to me as well.

Choke?  It's a high idle lever not air mixture "choke".

[lovemyguzzi75]

Haha thanks. I'm actually really excited about getting to the bottom of this. I love this bike and will love it so much more once I feel like I have a better mechanical understanding about it.

The funny thing is that I have another bike '83 BMW R100 that I'm rebuilding after some stunning neglect by the previous owner. I'm really enjoying that project, largely because of the beauty in the simplicity of the engine design. For some reason, I never noticed what should have been obvious similarities between the two bikes (I really hope i didn't just start a BMW vs. Guzzi war).

Anyway, I'm super excited about figuring this out.

[Penderic]

I would take a good look also at the spark plug caps and if they are tightly screwed into the ends of the spark plug wires.

[Larry]

Haha thanks. I'm actually really excited about getting to the bottom of this. I love this bike and will love it so much more once I feel like I have a better mechanical understanding about it.

The funny thing is that I have another bike '83 BMW R100 that I'm rebuilding after some stunning neglect by the previous owner. I'm really enjoying that project, largely because of the beauty in the simplicity of the engine design. For some reason, I never noticed what should have been obvious similarities between the two bikes (I really hope i didn't just start a BMW vs. Guzzi war).

Anyway, I'm super excited about figuring this out.

So did you sort it out? I needs to know!
Larry

[oldbike54]

So did you sort it out? I needs to know!
Larry

 How did you find a 5 year old post from a member who quit 5 years ago ?

 Dusty

[Larry]

How did you find a 5 year old post from a member who quit 5 years ago ?

 Dusty

Hi Dusty
I did a search on surging and this was one of the threads. I've got the same issue on my 2013 1200 Sport 8v. It's just started doing it.