The Good, the Bad, the Ugly. Guzzi brand image and dealerships that sell them...

[bobbyfromnc]

First thing let me say up front I knew of the scarcity of Guzzi dealers when I purchased my Norge. I've read to much Guzzi good than the flipside... Guzzi bad. I have been more than accommodating and patient with my dealer...

I purchased a new 2012 Norge demo with 1500 miles on it in March of this year. I ran out of gas because of a faulty part in the tank that sends info to the gauge on the dash. Warranty covered it. Dealer called when part came in. Not once but twice trying to do original repair problems arose due to what I will call a lack of attention to detail. On first repair attempt I rode a hundred miles home only to find a pond of gas under the bike two days later. Dealer picked the bike up. The bike never leaked for them over about 10 days. So after that attempt  I went and picked up the bike got halfway home got off the highway and poof a cloud on blue smoke briefly rolled out from the bottom of the bike. Looked under the bike and noticed a hose almost melted into on top of the exhaust Compensator this just didn't look right to me. Also the clear overflow hose with stopper was nowhere to be seen. A "week" later they picked up the bike (thats a whole other story) and another 10 days pass and the bike is delivered. The bike runs really good and attention to details was very good this time. I believe in the Guzzi brand, but Guzzi USA has got to stay on top of its dealer network. Its crap like this that can help sink the brand's reputation. The dealer made it good but my 100 % faith in them is not there right now. Hopefully this will not be how it is in the future but an isolated event. I want a good trusting Dealer / Customer relationship with them because frankly the next closest dealers are a few hundred miles away. I've done my part by being nice and they made it right, we'll see what the future holds, but I truly do believe in the Guzzi brand.

[not-fishing]

35 years ago I purchased an Alfa Romeo Spider and had much the same experience as you and I had purchased the extended warranty.

It didn't take me long to figure out that Any Warranty with a Dealer who didn't know what they were doing was worthless.

I found a local mechanic who could make that Alfa sing Arias and proceeded to follow him for the next  6 years/125,000 miles that I owned the car.

[jackson]

The overwhelming majority of Guzzi dealers (what few of them we have) in the USA don't sell enough bikes for their techs to stay on top of....... what to/where to/how to.... check for potential problems that should be addressed before delivering a new bike to a customer.  The scarcity of dealers coupled with low sales volume is generally going to translate to your personal experience.  Guzzis are great bikes but without forums like this one, I probably wouldn't own one and would just go back to riding BMW airheads.  BMW used to suffer from the same problems that Guzzi has in the USA and many BMW riders were forced to learn how to work on their own bikes.........or sell them. Unfortunately, Guzzis will get more electronic gadgets as time marches on and if Guzzi doesn't address the dealer shortage and also start building more bikes to feed those dealers, I think that fewer riders will buy them.  Their biggest seller (at least in the USA) is the V7 series which has been a fairly easy bike to maintain but now they've added ABS to this model and will continue to add more features, either by government mandates or marketing driven decisions.  The addition of ABS immediately eliminated me as a customer for a new V7 (which I was going to purchase within the next year or so).  This was done due to a European mandate so I don't blame Guzzi for it but it still knocked me off the list as a customer for a new bike. 
Bottom line is that either you will have to fix things yourself or find a dealer who has your 100% trust.  It's much further from your home but Guzzi Steve now works for the Atlanta Guzzi dealer and Riders Hill in Dahlonega, GA also has a very competent service dept. so you do have choices if you're willing to drive or trailer your bike when it needs competent service.  I have no experience with the dealer that you used but yours is not the first complaint that I've heard about re. their lack of competence.

[fotoguzzi]

Jackson, why so negative on ABS? I don't think I'd buy a new bike without it.

[jackson]

Jackson, why so negative on ABS? I don't think I'd buy a new bike without it.

Bad experiences with ABS.  Owned three different BMW's with three different generations of ABS and all gave problems.  Two were out of warranty (so, out of my pocket) and the other would have been a $2000 plus bill to fix but fortunately, it was under warranty.  When they fixed it, I sold the bike and that was the last ABS equipped bike that I will ever own.  ABS car systems (to the best of my knowledge) give very few problems but motorcycle ABS systems have trouble and $$$$ for repairs written all over them.  Also, I've had a motorcycle license since 1969 and have put somewhere between 700k-1 million miles on motorcycles and have never crashed or had any incident where ABS would have been needed.  To me, it's a feature that I can live without and that I will not own on a motorcycle.  At this point in my life, I don't want to ride anything bigger than a V7 size bike.  I like my V7 Classic so it looks like it will most likely, be my last motorcycle unless I fall in love with something that is fairly simplistic where I don't have to ride or haul it to a dealer, 100 plus miles away.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I also had a BMW with ABS issues. The only problem that my 07 Norge ever had was ABS related, so I can sympathize with you. I don't want it, either. <snapping suspenders>

[rocker59]

It didn't take me long to figure out that Any Warranty with a Dealer who didn't know what they were doing was worthless.
 

The overwhelming majority of Guzzi dealers (what few of them we have) in the USA don't sell enough bikes for their techs to stay on top of....... what to/where to/how to.... check for potential problems that should be addressed before delivering a new bike to a customer.   

These two quotes explain it perfectly.  Most of the newer dealers just haven't sold enough Guzzis for their techs to know heads from tails on the bikes.  Taking your new bike to a low-volume new dealer for warranty support is a recipe for headaches.

It's a chicken or egg scenario.  You need good dealers to expand the brand.  To expand the brand, you need good dealers.

On any low volume specialty machine, auto or moto, the owner should have an above average knowledge of his machine.  And, he should understand that the newish dealer that's sold a few units will likely not understand problems that may arise, and may not understand how to deal with the importer on getting the problem remedied.

It's just the way it is.  And, the way it has been.  For decades.

[Kev m]

These two quotes explain it perfectly.  Most of the newer dealers just haven't sold enough Guzzis for their techs to know heads from tails on the bikes.  Taking your new bike to a low-volume new dealer for warranty support is a recipe for headaches.

So how does that explain when someone like FBF screws up? 

[Lannis]

So how does that explain when someone like FBF screws up? 

There's that.   Plus, the issues that the OP was describing don't sound like Star Wars technology that the tech couldn't keep up with because he hadn't been to Jedi school.   It sounds more like attention to detail, remember to tighten fittings, remember to put back on the hoses that you took off .... You don't need a rocket-scientist for that, you need someone with good shop discipline and good basic skills.   And finding folks with those things is not just a Guzzi problem, it's a different problem, maybe societal in nature ....

Lannis

[blackcat]

I can turn the ABS off on my bike and the brakes work as designed sans the ABS, so I don't see how this is even an issue especially when the bike gets old.  Edit: bike is 7+yrs.old, so its OLD.

[Frulk]

These two quotes explain it perfectly.  Most of the newer dealers just haven't sold enough Guzzis for their techs to know heads from tails on the bikes.  Taking your new bike to a low-volume new dealer for warranty support is a recipe for headaches

BINGO!!! The recently new to Moto Guzzi dealer here in Salt Lake City who handles a number of imports (Triumph/BMW/Guzzi/Ducati etc) took my brand new V7R in for its initial service at 600 miles and significantly under filled my gear box. By the time I finally figured out what was wrong (actually it was Vasco DG who correctly pointed out what the problem was...Thanks Vasco!!!) and causing the loud screeching sounds at red lights in neutral the bike had approx 3,500 miles on it (2900 of those with the gear box damn near empty).  Took it in to the dealer and they admitted their fault. They called Guzzi and had a discussion and supposedly Guzzi told them to fill the gearbox which they did and the noise went away. "Of course now I have a brand new V7R with a gear box that is going to need to be rebuilt sometime well before it would need to be and every little sound the bike makes has me on edge. Spoke for a long time with the Gen Manager. He said if that happens they would make it right. He then offered me a $50 gift card which I refused.  Of all the bad things it could have been the outcome was the best. I really didn't want a mechanic who doesn't know the correct volume of fluid to put in the motor tearing into my transmission. 

[pyoungbl]

Frulk,
     I have a '13 with the 5 speed gearbox.  Reading the owners manual it clearly says that the transmission takes 170ml of oil, that's exactly what I put in.  After reading your discussion with Pete Roper I decided to check the level with the bike on the sidestand, as Pete instructed.  The oil level was nowhere near the fill hole, giving me an explanation for the gear whine I had been hearing.  I then filled to the lip of the add oil hole and the whine is gone.  My point here is that your shop may well have been following the owners manual but that's not enough oil.

BTW, there has been discussion about "transmission" and "gearbox" and that has led to some confusion.  My manual states that the transmission is a 5 speed one so I think It's pretty clear what we are talking about.

Peter Y.

[Frulk]

Pete. Just to clarify. I took the fill plug out of the tranny with the bike on the side stand as VascoDG instructed to. I then had to lean the bike 'significantly' beyond that to get gear oil to come out. If the bike doesn't have enough when it's filled on the side stand then sure as heck it doesn't have enough when you have to lean it even more. Not sure what the mechanic was doing/thinking that day.  The bike takes three types of fluid. Maybe he was confusing the cc's for the rear end  (I don't know since I never spoke with him). At any rate, in spite of all this I'm now contemplating trading it in for another brand new V7R. A fool and his money are soon parted but dang it, I love that bike!!!

[jackson]

I can turn the ABS off on my bike and the brakes work as designed sans the ABS, so I don't see how this is even an issue especially when the bike gets old.  Edit: bike is 7+yrs.old, so its OLD.

Your bike may have an off switch but none of the three BMW's that I owned with ABS had an off switch.  The only model that they offered with an off switch during those years was a GS model and the off switch was for when you took the bike on dirt/gravel, etc. 

[lorazepam]

I feel pretty fortunate to have a dealer with factory trained techs. they have worked on BMW and Guzzi bikes for a while, many years for BMW. They are starting to stock more parts, and maintenance parts are always in stock. I have a leaking seal on the clutch pushrod, and will get a loaner bike when I take it for the repair.
There is also a gun shop in the same store. 

[organfixsing]

Unfortunately MG refer to the final drive  as'transmission' and it does indeed take 170ml. The gearbox takes a lot more than this. I don't have the details for the 5-speed box, but, the 6-speed box takes a measured 500ml.
Cheers
Brian

[Furbo]

This is why my newest Guzzi is a 96 Carb Sporty.

[Muzz]

Unfortunately MG refer to the final drive  as'transmission' and it does indeed take 170ml. The gearbox takes a lot more than this. I don't have the details for the 5-speed box, but, the 6-speed box takes a measured 500ml.
Cheers
Brian

The 5 speed holds 1 litre.  Put in less at your peril.

[Vasco DG]

Yup,  all the smallblock V7's with a five speed box take a full litre. Whether the specified weight or just a slightly different 75/90 or the like is pretty unimportant. Any roughly similar weight full synthetic gear oil will be much better than any lubricant that was around when the gearbox was designed back in the 1970's. What IS important is the quantity.

Early boxes were specified for, (I think?) 850ml or some such but they used to starve fifth gear into premature failure. Unfortunately adding more oil just led to it bring blurted out in a disgusting pool on top of the gearbox!  The first factory fix was a bit more oil and a shroud around the fifth gears to direct oil to them. It was better than nothing but was still a bit of a kludge.

With the advent of the Baby Brevas the re spec'd the oil quantity to a full litre and must of done something to the breather system as they no longer puked oil out quite as vigorously if over filled.

Really though? The importer told them to just put oil in it and run it? After it had been run for 2,000 miles effectively dry? I do hope you've got that in writing and if it were my bike I wouldn't be riding it. If a gear shatters or a bearing collapses there is a VERY real risk of the gearbox locking up. Since the gearbox is downstream of the clutch there is NOTHING you can do to unlock the rear wheel. The chances of being rear-ended, run over or simply crashing horribly don't bare thinking about. At least if your widow has a piece of paper from someone saying 'Nah Mate! She's Apples!' Or whatever the equivalent is in Americanese then she should be able to sue whoever for enough for a comfortable retirement!

Pete

[Kev m]

Frulk,
     I have a '13 with the 5 speed gearbox.  Reading the owners manual it clearly says that the transmission takes 170ml of oil, that's exactly what I put in.  After reading your discussion with Pete Roper I decided to check the level with the bike on the sidestand, as Pete instructed.  The oil level was nowhere near the fill hole, giving me an explanation for the gear whine I had been hearing.  I then filled to the lip of the add oil hole and the whine is gone.  My point here is that your shop may well have been following the owners manual but that's not enough oil.

BTW, there has been discussion about "transmission" and "gearbox" and that has led to some confusion.  My manual states that the transmission is a 5 speed one so I think It's pretty clear what we are talking about.

Peter Y.

Sorry Peter, but it's bad enough if an owner ignores common sense and blindly follows a spec that is obviously questionable, it's unforgivable for a professional shop. Even if a DIYer is unaware that mistakes occur in tech manuals (and even that troubles me because we've all seen major publications have to print retractions or corrections so why assume a tech manual would be perfect) a pro should already have seen other mistakes and be keeping their eyes open for them.

But, even if a pro was temporarily fooled by the bad nomenclature, they'd have to figure it out by the time they drained and/or refilled the rear drive and it was so obviously not a litre. Not to mention what was drained out of the 5-speed box being so obviously more than 170 ml.

[Vasco DG]

Exactly! The bloke who put in 170ml presumably drained the box. What was he doing while the oil was draining? Pulling himself in the shithouse?

And want about the 1litre mentioned for the other component? What happened when he tried to pour that in the bevel box???

It's stupid. It's dangerous and to just suggest that a seriously compromised component be 'Filled and put back into service'? Well I don't know what the term is in the US but it strikes me as wilfully negligent.

Mind you I had that issue with a 90th anniversary Cali where the selling shop had sent it out with no gearbox or be elbox oil in. They tried to tell me it was. Warranty problem and I should fix it.

Guess what........

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

"After it had been run for 2,000 miles effectively dry?"
Actually, he said 2900 miles. Seriously.. something *needs* to be done to remedy this situation before Frulk buys the farm because of the dealer's incompetence.

[Kev m]

"After it had been run for 2,000 miles effectively dry?"
Actually, he said 2900 miles. Seriously.. something *needs* to be done to remedy this situation before Frulk buys the farm because of the dealer's incompetence.

Or worse, he trades it in and the dealer sells it without disclosure.

[rss29]

Oh no. I can't help but think the gearbox has been dealt a fatal blow after 2900 miles with only 15% of the required oil fill. If it were slightly low, that would be one thing, but the extra heat and lack of lubrication has to have taken a serious toll on the internal components. I'd be wary of an impending catastrophic failure. Every odd little noise (and these bikes make plenty of them) would have me sweating.

Peter Y- hopefully you didn't run long with only that level of oil in your gearbox as well. MG calling the final drive a 'transmission' certainly doesn't help things for the North American audience.

I no longer have my '13 V7, but doesn't it have both a drain and a level-fill plug? Drain, then fill until oil drips out the top and you're good?

OP- I'm not an alarmist by any stretch, but I think you have a serious problem that the dealer needs to either rectify or document very clearly so your next of kin know who to pursue legal action against (kidding, sort of).

[Vasco DG]

Or worse, he trades it in and the dealer sells it without disclosure.

Precisely my thought......

[canuguzzi]

What would you rather sell, bikes that are straight forward to service or those that you need a degree in some ology to service?

I'm not kidding, there is a reason why Honda , Yamaha  and Suzuki sell so many bikes.

What law says you can't build a bike with soul and character without all the idiosyncrasies many MG owners endure? Like the most simple, or it should be, changing the fluids like oil?

It isn't the dealers responsibility to fix problems created by the factory. The entire world seems to be able to change the oil in their cars and motorcycles using a rather simple process. We can complain all we want to each other about bad dealers or that dealer X should have done this or that.

Simply put, the dealers don't want to when they can sign up to sell a Yamhonkawsi and be done with it. Met up with a couple on an FJR and another an ST1300. They might not enjoy the mystic and joy of the MG soul but it isn't like they smiled less and I'm betting they worried less. They were going cross country and returning and probably didn't give much thought to making it or not.

I am thrilled to have a Norge and right now wouldn't fly something else. Me and like 5 other people. There is a reason for that and there is no chicken and the egg thing going on, there is only the chicken, that would be MG. They could fix all the stupid little things that no one else deals with on a regular basis and it probably wouldn't cost them anything.

Looking at the dealer showrooms and CL, it seems every Norge except mine sold in the last 2 years was traded in or was put up for sale.

[Vasco DG]

I can think of virtually no vehicle currently sold that is simpler to service than a single TB smallblock. Really.

I don't see what sort of 'Ology' you are referring to with regard to complexity? Drain oils. Re-fill oils and replace oil filter. That requires removal of three drain plugs and two filler plugs plus the dipstick and undoing of one bolt and replacement of one o-ring. Whoops! Four drain plugs, my bad! There is the front one on the sump too.

Then there are the incredibly difficult to service valves! Six bolts per rocker cover, a piece of plastic bling to pull off and two spark plugs to remove! My God! You'd have to be conversant with the minutiae of Unified Field Theory to be able to tackle that! Pick up the spanner needed to adjust the clearance? Good lord! And they were amazed when that Higgs character discovered that boson! If you can service a smallblock Guzzi I reckon there should be a Nobel prize in it at the very least!

NOT!

The big blocks are only slightly fussier! You have to balance the TB's and re-set the TPS on them, (Oh, the humanity!) both set-ups also have an air filter to inspect and change occasionally too but to suggest it's HARD? Oh my aching sides!

BTW, the reason why many people think particularly Japanese bikes are easy to service is because they aren't. At many shops when something like a 600 Supersport is 'Serviced' it won't be. It'll have its oil and filter changed and anything glaringly obvious addressed like knackered chain and sprockets or brake pads but how often will you read/hear people saying "Yeah, problem with Sportsbikes is they're worn out by 50,000km." Of course they aren't! It's just they've never had their valve lash looked at or their throttle bodied balanced! Their tune has gone out, that's all, but it'll not be fixed for the same reason that people have problems with Guzzi service. Quite simply shops won't employ/pay or simply can't find people with the skills to perform basic tasks. It's just a damn sight more noticable and critical on a bike like a Guzzi than it is on something like a CBR!

Pete

[Lannis]

NorgePilot, good try and good writing but it's Pete for the win on this one ....

Lannis

[canuguzzi]

The valves on many bikes these days are check and practically forget about them, they go more than 10k miles before a check and then are more likely than not be fine. Those 600cc sportbike are also pumping out more HP than the MG and if ridden the same way easily go 100k miles. My previous V-Strom? Other than the ECU map (at least the factory fixed it) was something that could go four times across the US with nothing more than an oil change and do it without even bothering anyone.

When it comes to oils and so on, I don't see guys riding STs or FJRs fiddling with how to put oil in the darn things and then hoping they got the levels right. they RTM and if it says 3.2 quarts of oil, that is what goes in and you could probably check 1000 engines and they'd read within a millimeter on the dipstick compared to one another. Their screw in dipsticks don't fall out ever unless the owner didn't screw them back in.

How many of us have faith in the owners manual and following it would feel confident that what we read was closer to what the bike needs than what a Yugo needs? This is a fundamental thing and would cost nothing to make right.

Adjust the front suspension? I dare anyone to attempt it by reading the manual and getting it right. It would be one thing if we were all idiots and couldn't read but somehow I don't think that is the case.

How many times have we read that the only reason someone bought an MG was because Pete and Mark and others help out? Think anyone says that when it comes to buying an FJR or ST1300? We're all quite lucky WG is around and while I wouldn't trade that away, I do wish it was more of an add-on instead of a necessity for lots of people.

All I am saying is that it can't only be marketing and that being the reason why an MG dealer, much less a good one is as rare as an honest politician.

Reliability is about perception too and that is something that wouldn't cost MG anything to fix. That they don't want to do anything about it is just a big FU right in your face. That works with a Ferrari and a host of other so called exclusive machines but when it comes to motorcycles, it doesn't unless you're shelling out BMW prices.

Before anyone gets the idea I'm down on MG, I am not, not even close. I am saying that I fully expect everything that others report happening to their Norge to happen to mine, I accept that. What is hard to accept is that MG could quite easily do something about that so it doesn't happen and then tout reliability as something else MG is known for.

I stopped someplace to eat and up came a pack of people riding HDs. They weren't poseurs unless the huge packs they had strapped to the bikes were for show. When, other than some prearranged meeting, has anyone seen a gathering of people riding MGs heading out for a long tour? Look around, it doesn't happen.

HD had a huge PR problem, their bikes leaked oil like Chevron, lights barely flickered and they nearly went bellyup. Whatever they did, they fixed it, beit real problem or perception, but they fixed it.

I can have any bike I want, I own a Norge. That doesn't mean MG couldn't do a whole lot more to support it's dealers, improve the brand and most important support it's customers.

[rocker59]

I stopped someplace to eat and up came a pack of people riding HDs. They weren't poseurs unless the huge packs they had strapped to the bikes were for show. When, other than some prearranged meeting, has anyone seen a gathering of people riding MGs heading out for a long tour? Look around, it doesn't happen.
 

It's obvious.  Guzzi riders tend to ride alone.  Some people travel in groups to the rallies, and such.  I returned from Iowa 2011 in a group that included 5 Guzzis out of 7 bikes in the group.

It's a numbers game, though.  There simply aren't that many Guzzis out there, so you're not regularly going to see groups of them.  Harley-Davidson has sold MILLIONS of motorcycles in the USA over the past twenty years.  (something in the order of 3.5-Million, or more).  If Guzzi has sold 15,000 in that time, I would be surprised.

If that doesn't put it in perspective for you, nothing will...