Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest

[Muzz]

I had a friend who achieved 45mph on his racy treddly coming down Dyers Pass road (Port Hills Christchurch) once.  He got a speeding ticket for it and was quite proud of it. I thought he was nuts.

When my ex neighbour and I would go for a training ride on the treadlies over the Port Hills he would blast me  in to the weeds on the way up.  HOWEVER, when it came to going DOWN I would clock up to 75 kmh. I would then wait for him at the bottom.  He would then tell me I was crazy etc. and we would then ride off in to the sunset.

When it comes to countersteering, I have no idea whether I do it or not. Used to do a lot of mountain biking so probably do.  On the Breva, I nod my head and around it goes.

[Luap McKeever]

There's got to be an Ivy League Dr. of Physics that can help counter steer us in an acceptable direction.  I'd like to see what a little official science smells like. . . .at least that's how I'm leaning.

Don't know about official science.  I do find this topic somewhat funny though.  We all ride motorcycles and are discussing how to correctly steer them.  Put too much thought into this and you might get distracted and find yourself in a ditch .

I've logged about 250,000 miles on motorcycles the last 30 years and never really put that much thought into it.  Even when I was an MSF instructor running a Honda CB650 to death. 

All I know is...Want to go to the right?...Push the right handlebar grip. In a steep turn?...push harder and turn that right handlebar thingy

Seems like on Guzzi though that I don't even have to push.  I just "think" about the corner and the bike makes it happen

[johnr]

I think were we to get a physics prof on the case we would be inundated with complex mathematical proofs. Still, it might be interesting to do so.

Yes, we all ride a bikes some without doubt better than others and for 'rider instruction' purposes "push right to turn right" is all the instruction that is really needed.

I do have to say though that after some years of riding I for one needed the rationale to understand this  and to consider trying it. Of course at that point no one had ever said "push right to turn right" to me.

I think that consciously and continuously practicing reverse steering until it became automatic did improve my riding. It certainly prevented any repeat of my pole hitting incident (that happened on a straight dry road at 35mph with no other traffic around) and made things more sure, precise and relaxed for me.

At the end of the day I like physics. It was my favourite subject at school and uni, and I for one find the whole topic fascinating. (as you might have guessed. )

[drums4money]

Don't know about official science.  I do find this topic somewhat funny though.  We all ride motorcycles and are discussing how to correctly steer them.  Put too much thought into this and you might get distracted and find yourself in a ditch .

Seems like on Guzzi though that I don't even have to push.  I just "think" about the corner and the bike makes it happen

I don't disagree. This topic intrigues me for the sport of the dialogue.  While the science is repeating its' laws behind the scenes, our brains are putting the same inputs into/onto the machine.  I believe the differences between what we each percieve is happening exists in the small patch of grey between our ears. 

[LowRyter]

Don't know about official science.  I do find this topic somewhat funny though.  We all ride motorcycles and are discussing how to correctly steer them.  Put too much thought into this and you might get distracted and find yourself in a ditch .

I've logged about 250,000 miles on motorcycles the last 30 years and never really put that much thought into it.  Even when I was an MSF instructor running a Honda CB650 to death. 

All I know is...Want to go to the right?...Push the right handlebar grip. In a steep turn?...push harder and turn that right handlebar thingy

Seems like on Guzzi though that I don't even have to push.  I just "think" about the corner and the bike makes it happen

 

[donn]

The thing is, I would posit that given the width of the wheel etc that the change in diameter is very small indeed and I have a big doubt that it has any effect on steering.  Nor can I think just now of any reason why it should. 

The effect of that change of diameter would seem to me to be either that the wheel speeds up by a small amount or that the bike slows by a small amount or both.

That would make sense because in "physics speak" a turn or change of direction is an "acceleration" (in a given direction) and requires energy which would be sapped from the bike speed. (or provided by more throttle)

While I don't think the diameter change has any relevance to steering practices I remain open to the possibility. Unconvinced as yet though.

I don't think anyone's going to try to convince you otherwise - I think that's all anyone was saying, is that the throttle may need to go up a hair to keep constant speed.  Not that it has anything to do with steering per se, no one's saying that here anyway.  I take no position.  I think there could be other reasons why you might need more throttle, besides wheel diameter - or not need more throttle.  For my purposes, I need whatever throttle it takes to keep from falling over, and it's no use trying to tell me otherwise.

[Kentktk]

Don't know about official science.  I do find this topic somewhat funny though.  We all ride motorcycles and are discussing how to correctly steer them.  Put too much thought into this and you might get distracted and find yourself in a ditch .

I've logged about 250,000 miles on motorcycles the last 30 years and never really put that much thought into it.  Even when I was an MSF instructor running a Honda CB650 to death. 

All I know is...Want to go to the right?...Push the right handlebar grip. In a steep turn?...push harder and turn that right handlebar thingy

Seems like on Guzzi though that I don't even have to push.  I just "think" about the corner and the bike makes it happen

Exactly! Need to close up the turn radius line or overcooked a turn push even harder!

[donn]

Just saw this moderately entertaining 4 minute video about bicycle self-stability: How do bikes stay up?

They touch on countersteering without using the word, just assuming that you'll understand that the bike needs to turn in to stay up.  The question is why it does it, on its own.

[Huzo]

This is just for my friends, but as mentioned on the humour laden post where the tosser loses his bike on the ice. The bike is in a constant state of counter steering as can be seen by the initial flick of the 'bars to the left (right bar forward) and then "flops" into a right hand turn. (Cue hilarious uncontrollable laughter)...

[ITSec]

Hey, didn't your high school driving instructor always tell you "steer into the skid!"? 

[Huzo]

Hey, didn't your high school driving instructor always tell you "steer into the skid!"? 

I failed high school, that's why I got into the IT industry !

[Rough Edge racing]

  Spend a little time viewing Moto GP low side crashed on U tube... The bike enters the turn with the counter steering front wheel turned slightly away from the turn...Just before the rider loses control the front wheel turns slightly into the turn and then lowsides....

[rudyr]

Don't forget you or riding on three gyro's two on vertical axis and one in the transverse.  That said one of them you control with pressure (Handel bar) the gyro effect takes effect at 90 deg. in the direction of rotation.  So if you try to tilt it turn and if you try to turn it tiles simply ha.  Now the next gyro's or controlled by speed( crank, and rear wheel) speed of rotation give redidage or stability.  You know sitting at a stop lite rev. Your engein up to stay up long enouft for the lite to change.  Rudy

[rudyr]

How about another counter steering suggestion, for you people that or thing about trying it( like winning racer do).  When your or staring into the turn and pushing that inside bar, try pulling up on it & pushing down on the out side bar.  To do this you will need to push down on the inside foot peg.  Now thing happier in that turn that will make you smile, but be careful, al little bit pressure will go a long way.  Now your or putting to different pressure on your front gyro,turning & tilting on the axis.Rudy

[ridingron]

Interesting read.

http://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machine/

[oldbike54]

 Haven't we plowed this field before ?

 Dusty

[rudyr]

Just like farms we just keep replowing old fields, that one reason I like guzzi rally. Rudy

[Huzo]

Haven't we plowed this field before ?

 Dusty

No Dusty, this is a new one as suggested by Two Wings. Just for the amusement of our good friends you see...

[Huzo]

How about another counter steering suggestion, for you people that or thing about trying it( like winning racer do).  When your or staring into the turn and pushing that inside bar, try pulling up on it & pushing down on the out side bar.  To do this you will need to push down on the inside foot peg.  Now thing happier in that turn that will make you smile, but be careful, al little bit pressure will go a long way.  Now your or putting to different pressure on your front gyro,turning & tilting on the axis.Rudy

Just a point Rudy. Not just winning racers do the counter steering thing.EVERYBODY DOES ! Just not everybody knows it. The bike does not have static stability in the rolling plane (as opposed to pitch and yaw) the point of support must be re positioned constantly in the dynamic sense under the centre of mass. Isaac Newton said so and we all must comply.

[ken farr]

Haven't we plowed this field before ?

 Dusty

.....new season....



kjf

[cruzziguzzi]

Nesssquatchie approves!





Todd.

[Huzo]

Nesssquatchie approves!





Todd.

??????

[Penderic]

And so does Riding Bull.

[Strada]

Interesting read.

http://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machine/

What a neat little article. Thanks for the link!

[Old Jock]

I don't normally post on this sort of stuff as it just usually just fuels a lot of conjecture & opinion often with little fact

However I stumbled on this video by accident and thought it explained the physics quite well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU

Yes I've watched all the Keith Code stuff too, many times

John

[wirespokes]

Great little video! Explains it in a very simple way.

I first learned about counter steering in the 70s after I'd already been riding ten years. Saved my bacon more than once lane splitting! When you need to change direction suddenly there's no better way (is there any other?)

[rocker59]

I'm pretty sure we had a mega threadfest on this subject a couple years ago...   

[oldbike54]

I'm pretty sure we had a mega threadfest on this subject a couple years ago...   

 More than one , worse than an oil thread 

 Good video .

 Dusty

[Two Checks]

Did someone say oil thread?

[wirespokes]

Maybe we could add "weighting the pegs" as well?