Countersteering / Counter Steering / Gyroscopic Merged Threadfest

[Kentktk]

Explained through Physics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU

[lucydad]

Kent,

Pretty good video.  Counter steering is fascinating.  When I resumed riding after nearly 30 years, the entire process of turning a bike came back quickly.  Thinking about it though, produced confusion.  Steer with the inside arm -- learned decades ago, helped turn off the brain games.  Bicycle riding is a contrast as most is at very slow speeds compared to a motorcycle.

What this video does not really discuss:  traction (mu times the normal force)  that is also a key component of cornering a motorcycle.

Thanks!

[earemike]

OK I enjoyed that, thanks! 

[Arizona Wayne]

That's exactly what I was saying.   In a last ditch effort you need to use the countersteering to avoid an instant object.  I have done that a couple times as needed.

[Wayne Orwig]

Thanks for posting what looks like an accurate description of countersteering.

As an ex-MSF instructor, I find the misinformation to be potentially dangerous.
Everyone should go out occasionally and find a safe place to practice quick countersteering , swerving, and maximum braking.

[jas67]

Bicycle riding is a contrast as most is at very slow speeds compared to a motorcycle.

While the speeds are much slower, the same physics apply to bicycles, esp. at higher speeds.  I know that there are others on this forum that also ride bicycles.    I frequently hit speeds above 20 MPH (frequently 35-40 on downhills) -- at these speeds, the best steering technique is very much the same as a motorcycle.

[Triple Jim]

While the speeds are much slower, the same physics apply to bicycles, esp. at higher speeds.  I know that there are others on this forum that also ride bicycles.    I frequently hit speeds above 20 MPH (frequently 35-40 on downhills) -- at these speeds, the best steering technique is very much the same as a motorcycle.

Absolutely.  Even below 20 mph on a bicycle, to make a quick avoidance maneuver, countersteering is required.  It's the quickest way to get a 2-wheeled vehicle leaned for a turn.

[Kev m]

That's exactly what I was saying.   In a last ditch effort you need to use the countersteering to avoid an instant object.  I have done that a couple times as needed.

IF you are saying that you've ONLY done that a couple of times, you're mistaken.

That video was PERFECT in its explanations, but what it did NOT say was that "you ALWAYS initiate a turn at speed in this manner".

The reasons were touched upon in the video, but the concept was not expressed. Simply put, a motorcycle at speed has too much force for you to overcome it SIMPLY by leaning or throwing your weight to one side. In order to get it to break over for the turn (i.e. to initiate the turn) you COUNTERSTEER.

Man, this sucks, cause I typed all this in that last thread.

Once the countersteer has set up the balanced lean angle for the speed and tightness of the curve (and that angle at any given speed/curve varies with how much you do or don't shift your weight) then you will be able to turn the bike and you no longer countersteer... the bike will continue around that curve at that speed/angle until you change one of the inputs.

But the Keith Code No BS bike demonstrates to each rider who tries it, that even at typical road speeds you're not going to effectively turn a bike with JUST your weight shift alone or all the talk in the last thread about pushing "down" on the bars not "in", no it doesn't nothing unless you move the steering head.

(Did you read about the No BS bike, how it has a set of fixed handgrips and controls so that you literally aren't holding onto the steering head, and how riders will everything they can think of to try and get it to turn but can't without using the handlebars to countersteer. It's a very effective real life demonstration of the concepts touched on by this video).

EDIT - I originally put in my post in that last thread how amazing it is that we all do this, but most of us (MYSELF INCLUDED) have spent a significant time with misconceptions about it. Some people try to use photos from track shots to explain a misconception too, but the problem with most snapshots is that you don't know what happened a split second before or after. Still with the right concepts you CAN find examples of countersteering, and then leaning and steering through the turn. But you have to know what to look for, and many of us (again myself included) have spent an not insignificant amount of time not knowing for what to look.

[steven c]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGQ-HePrT8

[Kev m]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGQ-HePrT8

    

[canuguzzi]

Millions of kids learn to ride bicycles and no one ever tells them they need to counter steer.

[Triple Jim]

Millions of kids learn to ride bicycles and no one ever tells them they need to counter steer.

Right, kids are usually pretty sharp and figure things like that out on their own, even if they don't realize it.

[LowRyter]

Is this still a thing?

[Kev m]

Right, kids are usually pretty sharp and figure things like that out on their own, even if they don't realize it.

Just like the adults who do it by feel but don't understand what they are actually doing (and not ask care to understand, that's fine too).

[lucydad]

Jas,

No doubt you are spot on concerning bicycles also counter-steering.  On my Cannondale, fastest so far, according to speedo with memory, is 22 mph.  That was down a slight hill with a back wind.  Guess call me turtle?  No steep hills here in TX gulf coast flatness.  A lot of riding is on gravel trails. 

Gyroscopic effects and physics there-of fascinate me.  Studied these in college physics.  Other favorites remain ballistics and aiming of artillery (the classic long range cannon problem in a cross wind) and even more fun:  orbital mechanics.  How does as aspiring astronaut maneuver to dock the lunar lander with the command ship?  The movie Gravity got a lot of that wrong. Differential equations are your friends!

[Chuck in Indiana]

fastest so far, according to speedo with memory, is 22 mph.

22?? I used to cruise at 22. <snapping suspenders> Any more, it's more like 17, but still.. 

[earemike]

The reasons were touched upon in the video, but the concept was not expressed. Simply put, a motorcycle at speed has too much force for you to overcome it SIMPLY by leaning or throwing your weight to one side. In order to get it to break over for the turn (i.e. to initiate the turn) you COUNTERSTEER.

Sure but my perception was different. When I shifted my weight I also twisted, thus inducing countersteer without realising it. After an accident and period off the bike my riding sucked (more than usual), it just felt wrong & I couldn't put my finger on it. It was because I wasn't moving as naturally across the bike & not countersteering as much (nothing felt right). It wasn't until I realised I'd been countersteering without thinking & actively worked with it that it all came back together.

[drums4money]

I rode for a little while today on a smooth windy stretch with the road all to myself. . . with only the throttle hand on the bar.  I could be wrong, but it seemed like I was pushing the bar if I wanted to initiate a right turn.  and I'd pull on the bar to initiate a left.  It's pretty scientific seat-of-the-pants investigative work.  I paid careful attention and tried to stay focused despite the constant barrage of honeysuckle smell and pleasant exhaust note.  I may set myself up a focus group for further research. 

Kent- on another note- and another bike - you've got the MV F4.  Can you discern anything of the physics of the counter-rotating crank on the MV & it's purported effect of lessening the gyrotational forces of everything else spinning opposite?

It's a novel concept, but I can't tell what's counter-rotation vs. what's geometry.  I'm thinking it'd take a MUCH more capable rider at hyper-speeds on track conditions. 

Anyway- I like the thread.  I was thinking about the process way back as a kid when I didn't care what made the bicycle go- only that it go'd.

[lucydad]

Chuck,  yeah I told you.  And the Cannondale is a pretty light bike with hybrid tires.  This cold virus filled my lungs with gunk.  Have not been on bicycle or motorcycle for over 2 weeks.  Just breathing is a wheeze right now.  In any comparative event I am almost always slowest, but I have fun.  Not athletic by any stretch.  Clumsy turtle is moi. 

Dusty, yes counter steering works in zero-g, but remember F = mA and gravity does indeed suck, even in space.  Orbits are simply falling vector matched with forward vector.  Maneuvering is tricky stuff. Read somewhere that on the Apollo missions they had to train very hard to adjust to lunar orbits compared to earth orbital dynamics.  Armstrong really had to finesse down the first landing, and almost ran out of fuel.  Nobody had done it before.  Then planetary bodies have variable gravity fields (that's geophysics for you)--and orbits vary depending on local attraction, and planets are not true spheres.

I want a lunar motorcycle.  Bet that would be a hell of a dirt bike.  Can you imagine the jumps? Electric powered. In and out of a crater.

 Then there is Mars...can you tell I am bored?  Someone needs to write a computer simulation, then port it to a game system.  Yep, moto-luna....there you go, a new idea for someone with the software skills.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

While the speeds are much slower, the same physics apply to bicycles, esp. at higher speeds.  I know that there are others on this forum that also ride bicycles.    I frequently hit speeds above 20 MPH (frequently 35-40 on downhills) -- at these speeds, the best steering technique is very much the same as a motorcycle.

This is absolutely true, I hit mid 40's + on many of the descents around here and the biggest difference is the importance of weighting your outside pedal.  Thats imperative on a bike. I was going down Old Toll Rd in Asheville a couple days ago.. according to my gps app, top speed was 47.8MPH!  This is a road I ride frequently on the moto and I am certain i go no faster with an engine! Countersteer is just as important on the bike as the  moto.(if you are going fast)

[Wayne Orwig]

I rode for a little while today on a smooth windy stretch with the road all to myself. . . with only the throttle hand on the bar.  I could be wrong, but it seemed like I was pushing the bar if I wanted to initiate a right turn.  and I'd pull on the bar to initiate a left.  It's pretty scientific seat-of-the-pants investigative work.   

That is why the MSF (at least used to) teach "push right, go right. Push left, go left". Pretty simple to think through in an emergency.

[Kentktk]

Kent- on another note- and another bike - you've got the MV F4.  Can you discern anything of the physics of the counter-rotating crank on the MV & it's purported effect of lessening the gyrotational forces of everything else spinning opposite?

I`d have to have 2 of the same bikes spinning the crank opposite ways to discern a difference. It`s not the quickest turning bike but is super stable in high speed corners which is Italian sportbike tradition. Ducati`s Pannigale is changing the genre in that it that turn in is easy to initiate. The 999 was a lot of work to turn without rider gymnastics, but once in the turn it felt like it was on rails.

One thing to try in regards to countersteering is tightening your line in a high speed turn. The only way it will happen is adding more countersteer and it can be a fairly substantial pull or push (which ever you prefer) on the bars.

[Arizona Wayne]

I`d have to have 2 of the same bikes spinning the crank opposite ways to discern a difference. It`s not the quickest turning bike but is super stable in high speed corners which is Italian sportbike tradition. Ducati`s Pannigale is changing the genre in that it that turn in is easy to initiate. The 999 was a lot of work to turn without rider gymnastics, but once in the turn it felt like it was on rails.

One thing to try in regards to countersteering is tightening your line in a high speed turn. The only way it will happen is adding more countersteer and it can be a fairly substantial pull or push (which ever you prefer) on the bars.

A lot of this conversation also depends on how much leverage you have turning controlled by your handlebar configuration.  The difference between clip ons and wide bars is big.

[frans belgium]

Everyone should go out occasionally and find a safe place to practice quick countersteering , swerving, and maximum braking.
[/quote

 

[lucydad]

Probably the most vivid counter steering event I have had on the V7R happened about 2 years ago.  Coming home from church downramp and curve from Beltway 8 in Houston to 59S.  Entered ramp and right curve at about 80 mph, on left lane, with a barrier to my left.

No traffic, no wind, no rain, feeling good:  so I rolled on the throttle.  Peripheral vision noticed I was approaching the wall as the curve tightens a bit, so I did a right hand counter gentle bump, corrected the line, also got up and off seat, knee out, and finished thru the curve at indicated 105 mph on Little Goose.  Fifth gear, right at 7000 rpm rev limiter---speed dropped to 95-90 on gentle uphill portion of 59 and we went home at normal 80 on freeway. 

Point is our Houston freeway ramps are fast, curvey, have the rate dip changes and do require counter steering. 

Most of the riding here is flat and straight and congested. Most riders seek out the few roads with any curves, especially chained stretches, and those with moderate hills (go NW towards Hill Country). 

I think a lot of the rider accidents in the Houston area are on the freeway ramps, and a key reason:  riders just don't know how to counter steer at high speed, and they hit the wall, and go up and over and down.  Fatal accident just like that happened this past week.  Rider died and bike went thru windshield of truck below. 

[jas67]

Jas,

No doubt you are spot on concerning bicycles also counter-steering.  On my Cannondale, fastest so far, according to speedo with memory, is 22 mph.  That was down a slight hill with a back wind.  Guess call me turtle?  No steep hills here in TX gulf coast flatness.  A lot of riding is on gravel trails. 

There is one "mountain", Blue Mountain in the area (people from Colorado would laugh and call it a "hill" that is steep enough to hit 60 MPH on a pedal bike in a full tuck.     The turns are steep enough that it is not a wise thing to do.   For that matter, 60 MPH on 23mm wide tires pumped to 100 PSI  and no suspension is not a wise thing to do.   It is way more "trilling" (read: scary) then 120 MPH on a motorcycle.   It's been about 10 years or more since I have do that, and I likely won't again.    I had a scare when a dog ran out in front of me at about 50 MPH, and I realized that on that steep a slope with rim brakes that stopping quickly in a controlled fashion wasn't possible.

22?? I used to cruise at 22. <snapping suspenders> Any more, it's more like 17, but still.. 

When I was in my 20's, I used to average 20-22 MPH on rides that included hills.      Now it is more like 15 

[johnr]

You guys doing giganormous speeds on pedal power, esp down hills and such, need to remember that those things have very little trail.

[kevdog3019]

Millions of kids learn to ride bicycles and no one ever tells them they need to counter steer.

Good luck explaining the physics to a kid.  They just figure it out like we did (with a few bruises).  A couple bruises is easier than a forever puzzled look while you beat it in to him. 

[Kentktk]

Probably the most vivid counter steering event I have had on the V7R happened about 2 years ago.  Coming home from church downramp and curve from Beltway 8 in Houston to 59S.  Entered ramp and right curve at about 80 mph, on left lane, with a barrier to my left.

No traffic, no wind, no rain, feeling good:  so I rolled on the throttle.  Peripheral vision noticed I was approaching the wall as the curve tightens a bit, so I did a right hand counter gentle bump, corrected the line, also got up and off seat, knee out, and finished thru the curve at indicated 105 mph on Little Goose.  Fifth gear, right at 7000 rpm rev limiter---speed dropped to 95-90 on gentle uphill portion of 59 and we went home at normal 80 on freeway. 

Point is our Houston freeway ramps are fast, curvey, have the rate dip changes and do require counter steering. 

Well done, as most would stay the course reduce throttle which will stand the bike up decrease their radius and either just miss or hit the wall (hopefully just miss).

[not-fishing]

That's an excellent point John , I think . Danged emos have quit again . Yeah , the lack of trail certainly makes for quicker steering and less stability .

  Dusty

Heck my little pedal bike is very stable above 65 mph so stable I don't bother trying to turn unless it's a big sweeper.  steering head angle is 74 degrees

When confronted with pavement obstacles over 50 mph, like R x R tracks that are nasty or Cattle grates, I just bunny hop them.  like on the backside of Monitor pass going into Nevada 

Of course with Ebbits Pass I have to keep heavy pressure on my bicycle brakes because I'm not a little guy.



I need to ride those passes this year and do a little fly fishing.