Author Topic: Valeo starter problem (Read 7925 times)

rodekyll · « **on:** June 16, 2015, 06:17:43 PM »

I was testing the rodekyll after changing the atf pump drivepiece. It started and ran. Pressure looked reasonable. I shut it down and backed it down the ramp. Hit the starter button again and no spin. I thought it odd that the starter ran so well just a minute ago, but allowed that the tractor battery might not have had enough reserve to light it off again. So I put it on the charger.

Several hours later, with the charger disconnected and the battery reading 13v or better I hitthe button again. No joy. Volt meter goes to zero during the button press. It feels like a dead short.

To eliminate other problems I first jumpered from B+ to the spade on the starter -- no joy, but the starter instantly gets hot. A couple of repeats and it's smoking. I checked for engine seized -- flywheel spins like normal.

I removed the starter (still attached to the big battery cable), ran a jumper cable to ground and energized the spade. Pinion pops out but spin is very slow. Starter smokes.

Put the starter on the bench and disassembled, expecting to find unglued magnets. They are in place. Planetary gear moves, although a little notchy. Brushes are long and have good tension. Solenoid plunge is smooth.

Armature turns gritchy. I don't know if that means anything. Magnets and armature show no bad scraping.

Sprag clutch looks dry and may have smoke residue around the seams.

there is a lot of grease in the starter housing. It appears to have been greased on purpose, since the rubbers are all intact and there is no evidence of water or any other foreign intrusion. There is however no grease on the clutch splines. They look to have been hot (blued metal on the shaft portion).

Speaking of foreign -- this is an offshore mfgr'd valeo.

Any thoughts on my problem? I can rob the starter from the other bike to finish my tests, but it's going to be stupid-inconvenient to have to swap the damn thing from bike to bike . . .

oldbike54 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2015, 06:34:39 PM »

Green wire

Don't like the notchiness .

Dusty

56Pan · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2015, 06:42:40 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNV7TylIzSY

Sure sounds like a shorted armature to me and this check has shown me a bad armature many times. At about 2:22 in that video is what I think you'll find. A winding shorted to the shaft. Hope this helps.

rodekyll · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2015, 06:43:49 PM »

I forgot to mention that the other starter works good in the bike. So it's clearly a problem with the starter.

I'll look at the video in a bit. Thanks for linking it.

rodekyll · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2015, 08:24:45 PM »

56pan got it -- shorted winding.

I remembered that my starter button got stuck once and the starter ran quite a long time -- minutes -- before I figured out what the funny noise and voltmeter alarm were about. That was some years ago. I guess the abuse finally caught up with it.

Crap. I can't afford a real valeo right now. I'm going to get a knockoff from Amazon for half the cost and free shipping.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #5 on:** June 17, 2015, 10:10:19 AM »

Quote from: rodekyll on June 16, 2015, 06:17:43 PM

I removed the starter (still attached to the big battery cable), ran a jumper cable to ground and energized the spade. Pinion pops out but spin is very slow. Starter smokes.

Armature turns gritchy. I don't know if that means anything. Magnets and armature show no bad scraping.
. .

The starter should spin freely without drawing a lot of current (it's a shunt like motor) it will drop back to < 20 without a load to drive
My guess is it's the rubbing, you say no bad scraping, it shouldn't be touching at all, there's not a lot of torque in the Valeo armatures, not like a Bosch, it relies on low torque but lot's of speed to develop HP.
Check the bushes are in good shape, not letting the armature contact the poles. No shiny spots on the circumference.
If you have an auto electrician in town he should be able to check the armature on a growler.

Mike Harper · « **Reply #6 on:** June 17, 2015, 12:50:09 PM »

Crap. I can't afford a real valeo right now. I'm going to get a knockoff from Amazon for half the cost and free shipping.
[/quote]

I would buy two, you will need another one next month

rodekyll · « **Reply #7 on:** June 17, 2015, 01:12:20 PM »

I see what you're saying -- given the choice of buying a third valeo with a 100% track record of failure in my bike or a first Chinese knockoff that might or might not fail for half the price, it makes much more sense to buy the same 2x-costing unit FOR THE THIRD TIME IN 10 YEARS. Very sensible.

Triple Jim · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2015, 01:31:12 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on June 16, 2015, 08:24:45 PM

Crap. I can't afford a real valeo right now. I'm going to get a knockoff from Amazon for half the cost and free shipping.

You might try a search for "Valeo 432599". Prices can be lower than you expect if you leave off the "Guzzi".

rodekyll · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2015, 01:38:37 PM »

There's a tip I can use.

I'd been searching "Valeo D6RA210" and "guzzi starter". Not liking the cost or the so-called "sellers" that ship free to the lower 48 and won't ship to me at any price. WTF are you in business for if you don't want to sell your goods?

Last valeo failure was the magnets coming loose and binding the armature. This one is the armature itself. I should have kept the old one (sent it as a core) for parts. I'll hang on to the carcass of this one.

Mike Harper · « **Reply #10 on:** June 17, 2015, 03:50:14 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on June 17, 2015, 01:12:20 PM

I see what you're saying -- given the choice of buying a third valeo with a 100% track record of failure in my bike or a first Chinese knockoff that might or might not fail for half the price, it makes much more sense to buy the same 2x-costing unit FOR THE THIRD TIME IN 10 YEARS. Very sensible.

So you could buy an older Bosch unit, They are a lot better than the valeo's

rodekyll · « **Reply #11 on:** June 17, 2015, 04:31:03 PM »

That's a useful suggestion, Mike.

I have rebrushed a tired old bosch starter to get me through till the valeo clone arrives. I prefer the lower power draw and faster spinning of the valeo.

Gino · « **Reply #12 on:** June 17, 2015, 04:38:13 PM »

Bought a lesser German make with sidecar attached, 2 Valeo starters in less than 300 miles, both replacements new from BMW (warranty) ended up paying £100 more for a Nippon Denso replacement, problem is my V11 has a Valeo, now I don't trust them!

rodekyll · « **Reply #13 on:** June 17, 2015, 05:15:21 PM »

My first valeo shat its magnets. This one has apparently shorted a winding. Rumor has it that the starters have been updated with better adhesive for the magnets. The winding short is probably not a common one.

The bosch I'm using temporarily was getting a hitch in its getalong. I used the rock-hammer-scissors method of unsticking it until I bought a new solenoid. Then the brushes got short with me so I shelved it in favor of the first valeo. Using it today the difference in engine spin is dramatic -- the bosch goes slow. Luckily my bikes are pretty well tuned. they usually start with the first spark.

I think the problem with the valeo on your beemer is that it spins backwards.

oldbike54 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 17, 2015, 05:20:24 PM »

The beemer or the starter motor ?

Dusty

rodekyll · « **Reply #15 on:** June 17, 2015, 06:49:15 PM »

Just the starter. It points the opposite direction up there behind the bell housing, but the engine spins like a regular guzzi. A guy I knew thought he'd beat the cost by changing the nose bit on a bmw starter. He reported odd behavior. Also that the experiment didn't work.

oldbike54 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 17, 2015, 06:52:42 PM »

Well , you wanted reverse

Dusty

rodekyll · « **Reply #17 on:** June 17, 2015, 07:54:12 PM »

someone needs to smack the smart out of you. :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu <---- smartass being smacked

oldbike54 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 17, 2015, 08:03:24 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on June 17, 2015, 07:54:12 PM

someone needs to smack the smart out of you. :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu <---- smartass being smacked

Many have tried , so far no one has succeeded

Dusty

swalker · « **Reply #19 on:** June 17, 2015, 08:56:56 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on June 16, 2015, 08:24:45 PM

56pan got it -- shorted winding.

I remembered that my starter button got stuck once and the starter ran quite a long time -- minutes -- before I figured out what the funny noise and voltmeter alarm were about. That was some years ago. I guess the abuse finally caught up with it.

Crap. I can't afford a real valeo right now. I'm going to get a knockoff from Amazon for half the cost and free shipping.

This may not work on your bike, but when my valeo starter crapped out on my 95 1100, I bought a bosch and put back on it. No more worries...

rodekyll · « **Reply #20 on:** June 17, 2015, 09:05:43 PM »

This old thing originally had a bosch. Yes, the interchange is good. I think either would work anywhere, marelli excluded.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #21 on:** June 18, 2015, 12:47:59 AM »

I prefer the Bosch
The Valeo on my V11 Sport draws the highest current of any of my starters, 160 Amps, of course that may be something to do with compression ratio.

rodekyll · « **Reply #22 on:** June 18, 2015, 12:58:49 AM »

This valeo is rated at 1.2Kw. I don't know the actual draw but I don't think it's near that.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #23 on:** June 18, 2015, 01:05:52 AM »

It would have to be 100 Amps at 12 Volts then.

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Author Topic: Valeo starter problem (Read 7925 times)

oldbike54

56Pan

oldbike54

oldbike54

oldbike54