Anudder kweshun

[Kev m]

"Therefore, it is less likely that a more modern machine would leave you stranded than an older one."

There is a huge variable in there called quality, in both design and build. All are not created equal, never have been, never will be. Bean counters see to that.

Sure, this is a good point that I concede at the extremes. But I don't think anyone here is attempting to compare a new Royal Enfield with a 10 y/o Honda.

Generally speaking this conversation has been about new Guzzis vs. old Guzzis.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Remember, her original post?  Only transportation, no dealer, wants to self maintain?
That would make it tough to have a fly by wire machine.. but she could do anything on an older one.

[Wayne Orwig]

Remember, her original post?  Only transportation, no dealer, wants to self maintain?
That would make it tough to have a fly by wire machine.. but she could do anything on an older one.

With the right tool set, you can maybe do MORE on a newer machine.
If your tools and skills are stuck in the last century, then you may want to stick with the last centuries equipment.
So it is up to the end user to decide what tools and skills they (or their dealer) have.

[Kev m]

Remember, her original post?  Only transportation, no dealer, wants to self maintain?
That would make it tough to have a fly by wire machine.. but she could do anything on an older one.

What Wayne says. There is nothing about a fly-by-wire machine that MAKES YOU NEED A DEALER.

Now if you want to futz with mapping and Guzzidiag hasn't cracked it yet, then yeah, you might need outside help.

BUT THE IRONY THERE IS THE DEALER CAN'T HELP YOU EITHER unless they have a Rexxer then.

Maybe I'm so rabid about debunking these myths because literally I've run into it so often through my entire career of writing repair manuals. But I literally spend some portion of every workday confirming that this isn't the case as I write repair and diagnostic procedures for brand new motors, and I've been doing that for more than 2 decades now.


EDIT - and let me be perfectly clear about this. My attempts to debunk this myth have NO RELFECTION WHATSOEVER on the OP's desires or preferences. She is free to want what she wants and I say go for it. My only nit to pick with this thread is the myth that modern machines are somehow unreliable or unapproachable to fix because of electronics.

Here's one article on the trend that I've observed in the industry during my career:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/automobiles/as-cars-are-kept-longer-200000-is-new-100000.html?_r=0

In the 1960s and ’70s, when odometers typically registered no more than 99,999 miles before returning to all zeros, the idea of keeping a car for more than 100,000 miles was the automotive equivalent of driving on thin ice. You could try it, but you’d better be prepared to swim.

Customer satisfaction surveys show cars having fewer and fewer problems with each passing year. Much of this improvement is a result of intense global competition — a carmaker simply can’t allow its products to leak oil, break down or wear out prematurely.

“Fifteen years ago, piston rings would show perhaps 50 microns of wear over the useful life of a vehicle,” Mr. Sorab said, referring to the engine part responsible for sealing combustion in the cylinder. “Today, it is less than 10 microns. As a benchmark, a human hair is 200 microns thick.

“Materials are much better,” Mr. Sorab continued. “We can use very durable, diamondlike carbon finishes to prevent wear. We have tested our newest breed of EcoBoost engines, in our F-150 pickup, for 250,000 miles. When we tear the engines down, we cannot see any evidence of wear.”

[kirby1923]

I think your right about that Kev and your insight is a bit unique. People are somwhat paranoid about E stuff but now and then it can happen where you are tied to the manufacturer/dealer for a fix.
I friend of mine in Europe with a new beemer (two years old) had the machine quit on a trip. To make a long story short, he had to go to the dealer for dialogistics to have their computer read the system. He would not have found the problem without this system. Now he is paranoid about the high tech stuff.

I operate with high tech stuff regularly and some times  my life depends on it working properly so I have a high degree of trust.
Having said that I have to admit that I really enjoy my '81 Guzzi for its simplicity and the availability of help most any place I go for problems, but then my '04 beemer has been flawless in near 200K miles.

Embellishments on the internet strike fear in people, after all everything on the internet is true no?

mike

 

[ed.bremner]

@Kev M   thanks for link to that NYTimes article.  Really good read and right on the spot.

Personally I ride a 77 Guzzi and really can't say that I have had too many reliability issues, but I wouldn't want to claim it was more reliable than a new bike... but the last para from the article rung true for me:

<But Judge Clarke has lavished plenty of attention on his Porsche.

“I rebuilt the engine a couple of times, because of wear and tear and to keep the performance up,” he said. “I had it painted a couple of times to keep it looking stylish. My body fit into that seat and the car felt like an extension of me. I could tell when it was tired.

“I think the car was well made — that was one reason it lasted so long,” he said. “I stayed ahead of it. As long as it was reliable and loyal to me, I was loyal to it.”>

That just summed up my life with a Guzzi and I guess that if it had broken down, I would most probably have fixed it one week and forgotten it had ever broken down the next.

eib

[Kev m]

Kirb and Ed! Yup and Yup! 

I can understand the allure!

[Zinfan]

I have no experience with older Guzzis to my regret but may I ask what electronics does a V7 have that a Jackel doesn't ?  Yes the new V7II has ABS and Traction Control but what about the '13 and '14 models with the single throttle body?  Also wouldn't a pre-electronic Guzzi in good shape command a higher price due to rarity?

[Penderic]

Wanna fix it yourself do it yourselfer local resources simple self evident troubleshooting basic skill requirement sustainable renewable reliable non toxic carefree ....... word salad!

I'm going now.

[Kev m]

I have no experience with older Guzzis to my regret but may I ask what electronics does a V7 have that a Jackel doesn't ?  Yes the new V7II has ABS and Traction Control but what about the '13 and '14 models with the single throttle body? 

Off the top of my head

Both use some form of the following sensors - TPS, IAT, ET, CPS, plus oil pressure, neutral, and sidestand switches, along with a fuel pump, 2 fuel injectors.

Jackal has an electronic petcock that the V7 lacks.

V7 I believe has a clutch switch that the Jackal lacks.

The biggest difference is that the V7 combines the TPS and IAT along with the throttle body, and uses a partial RBW system so idle speed is controlled by the ECM and not the mechanical balance of the 2 throttle bodies and a fast idle lever.

Oh and the V7 is a closed-loop system so it uses 2 oxygen sensors while the Jackal system was open-loop and had none.

So they're not identical but they're not aliens to each other.

Also wouldn't a pre-electronic Guzzi in good shape command a higher price due to rarity?

           Now THAT'S FUNNY...

[HardAspie]

My decision matrix includes also dealers:
1. Closest is in Prescott, about 50 miles. I have no convenient way to get there or back, and no great place to stay if dealer needs bike more than one day. Snow happens in Prescott and en route that location is a roughly 7,000 foot mountain range where snow is a real issue. To avoid these mountains is possible but then the distance is about seventy miles.
2. Dealer in Tucson is about 200 miles.
3. Dealer in Chandler (I think. Phoenix area.) is about 120 miles. I have friends there where I could stay a night. There is also a shuttle van that can get me there and back. Worst case is a fail of an electronic system that I cannot work with. Flatbed to the Phoenix area shop must be at least $300, and shuttle plus taxi to get me there to pick it up at least $100. So add $400 to whatever the bill would be.
4. Prescott would entail probably lesser flatting cost, but transportation of me would be higher.
5. There is an independent shop: Euro Geeks, in Flagstaff. Fifty miles north on the snowy plateau. Things I cannot deal with they can and I can probably arrange a ride to Flagstaff to collect it.
6. Brother in law in California is a mechanic. That is a career USCG Master Chief: Engineer. He has made work everything from outboards to Cooper Bessmer Diesels to GE turbines to ACand R systems. He is now retired from USCG but is a field service representative (they have changes the title) for Oshkosh Defense Systems where he keeps military hardware running. He maintains the family cars and with a manual he can assist with things that I am uncomfortable with for any reason including simply needing a second pair of - far stronger - hands.

[HardAspie]

Then this.
I still may buy a new V7:

New V7            9000      MSRP, may get a discount, may have destination charges added, who knows?
Tax                    900      Estimated at 10%
License              300      Guess
=                    10200     Approximate
Financing            500    Guess, no idea what interest will be at time of purchase
=                     10700   Approximate
Service              1000    Guess, first year at dealer to keep warranty
=                      11700

Whereas I might find a used bike for about, about, 4500

Difference, 11700 (-) 4500 = 7200

For 7200 I can do a lot of work, and with some refurb probably alter the bike to fit my needs and desires. And when I am done I would have a bike fitting my desire to deal with with hand toold and an automotive DMM.

     

[HardAspie]

Then, bear in mind that before the flood I would keep in car or on bike the last set of plugs, points, and condenser. I kept a few other items too. Felt good to know it something ever would go bad that I could deal with it. Of course, only once did I ever need that set of points! A Subaru had blown a new coolant hose. Coolant loss so fast that the gauge never read hot. It pinged so I pulled off the road. Hose split like a sausage case and water everywhere. Had car towed and installed new hose. No start. Bought new coil to replace cracked and likely water infused one. No start. Got ride home and bro in law and I went back next morning. Was a stumper as we changed parts from his Suby to mine. Zero dwell. As rain drops the size of plates began to fall I figured only thing we had not changed out were points. Points were visually fine, operated, and had correct gap. I took out screws holding them to plate and they fell to two pieces. Heat had melted a small plastic bit. Put in new set and then drove home without radiator cap because running dry had killed water pump seal! Otherwise spare ignition stuff was just a parachute. For years.