Author Topic: phenolic resin(plastic) bearing cages (Read 9777 times)

gfritzmeier · « **on:** July 15, 2015, 10:25:20 PM »

I've got a 2003 California Aluminum & can anybody tell me for sure if it has plastic bearing cages or steel bearing cages in the transmission. I want to make perfectly sure before I go adding synthetic fluids or not? Thanks a ton for answers.

Wayne Orwig · « **Reply #1 on:** July 15, 2015, 11:40:46 PM »

Unless they have been changed, they are definitely plastic (polyamide or whatever that cheap stuff is).

Weather or not synthetic is related, I'm not sure. I know I use synthetic (Mobil 1) and I have had issues.

gfritzmeier · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2015, 03:14:14 PM »

Wayne, I'm not going to use synthetic fluid . I got a telephone call this morning from MG Cycle they suggested I not use synthetic in he gear box. Now I'm having deuce of a time finding one that's not synthetic. Yesterday I bought some Pentosin, made in Germany, that is supposed to be good fluid. No place on the container did it say synthetic so I looked online and sure enough it's 100% synthetic. Think I saw one at NAPA and can't remember the name. It was only sold by the gallon. If I buy that I'll have to think of who to leave it to in my will.

rodekyll · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2015, 04:35:54 PM »

Grift -- just curious as to how the call from MGCycle came about. Were they returning your call, or did someone there notice this topic and volunteer the information?

guzzisteve · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2015, 05:20:57 PM »

Valvoline 80/90 is Dino also and no issues w/my EV.

If all else fails go to a farm store!! They have Dino oils there!

Dilliw · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2015, 07:57:50 PM »

It could be the plastic cage or it could be the fact that they are no longer max fill. If you make it to 100k by using dino then that would be a good data point.

If you don't well you will be in a boat with lots of company.

gfritzmeier · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2015, 10:47:15 PM »

rodekyll, They returned a call to a message I left a couple days ago. I've bought there before and seem to be good people. I could say the same of Harper's but heck you know that can be said of most Guzzi people.

Thanks to the others as to where I can get it. Cycle shops and auto supply haven't been of much help. I can say that most of the shops don't really know what they're selling when it come to these fluids.

gfritzmeier · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2015, 01:39:38 PM »

Was talking to someone today that has about 25 bikes from the 60's and 70's mostly British. Says buys them and work on them to rebuild them but never finished one. Owns a couple newer bikes to ride daily. I told him I was looking for a 80/90 GL4 he said this is what he'd use and it turned out to be 90W GL4. Was a marine gear oil. Said the only difference was that water could not mix with it. Think I'll give it a try because no matter where I looked every container I looked at said met or exceeded GL4, GL5 and my manual definitely says GL5 for rear end and GL4 in transmission. Keep you informed if I have any problems with it.
If any of you have done this and had problem jump right up and say so because I still can't ride because of back surgery but that's about to end.

rodekyll · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2015, 03:20:10 PM »

I have not used marine gear lube in the bike, but I do use marine grease in my bearings. My rule of thumb is that marine grade fasteners/electrical stuff/fluids/metals/clothing/hoses/etc that meet specs otherwise are better in an exposed environment like a bike.

Vince in Milwaukee · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2015, 06:05:05 PM »

Quote from: oldbike54 on July 16, 2015, 04:52:57 PM

Wal Mart 80/90 gear lube .

Dusty

:1: Use this in both my LM3 xmission and my K75 BMW.

krglorioso · « **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2015, 09:39:19 PM »

Guzzi gear expert Charley Cole strongly recommends non-synthetic oil in the resin caged boxes. I use Sta-Lube GL-4 85/90(NAPA Auto Parts, around $30/gallon) with a dollop of Guard Dog moly gear lube. GD advises that their moly additives will not harm the resin cages. I do not have high mileage on either Stone Touring, but they sure seem fine.

Charley also mentioned that high operating temperatures can damage the resin cages, as well as lubricants with a high level of extreme pressure (EP) additives, which the GL-4 lube does not. . His Zydeco Racing website discusses the resin cages in some detail.

Ralph

krglorioso · « **Reply #11 on:** July 18, 2015, 09:42:35 PM »

BTW, I cannot help wondering if the Cycle World writer who described Guzzis as quirky was thinking of the plastic bearing cages, which no other motorcycle geargox maker uses, to my knowledge

Ralph

Vasco DG · « **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2015, 11:55:14 PM »

Do you honestly think that this blockhead would know anything about gearboxes, bearings or anything to do with the insides of motorbikes he couldn't glean off the back of a cornflakes packet?

Pete

Rough Edge racing · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2015, 05:39:33 AM »

Why would synthetic oil affect the non metal bearing cages? What is the exact science behind this ? Don't say sulfur because all GL5's have increases EP additives. Redline for one makes several grades of excellent GL4 synthetic.

Wayne Orwig · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2015, 09:45:35 AM »

Quote from: Rough Edge racing on July 19, 2015, 05:39:33 AM

Why would synthetic oil affect the non metal bearing cages? What is the exact science behind this ? Don't say sulfur because all GL5's have increases EP additives. Redline for one makes several grades of excellent GL4 synthetic.

Don't know. And I can't say for certain that this article applies. But read the section on poly cages.

http://www.skf.com/us/products/bearings-units-housings/super-precision-bearings/principles/bearing-specifics/materials/cage-materials/index.html

Rough Edge racing · « **Reply #15 on:** July 19, 2015, 09:53:51 AM »

That's generalized info... You would need to know the actual additives in any type oil to be sure. I can tell you that Redline is a pure ester based synthetic and they will answer questions about their lubes by people who know something..

Dick · « **Reply #16 on:** July 19, 2015, 02:02:00 PM »

http://www.hmb-guzzi.de/shop/Gearbox/Bearings/Caged-ball-bearing-input---output-shafts-5-speed-gearbox.html

Don't know if the cage material is the same, but these guys seem to think they're bearings are better. IIRC, when member Steve Scott changed out his Jackal trans bearings, the balls and races were showing damage without any damage seen to the *plastic* cages. So which really failed first, and why? I don't recall what gear oil he was using, or if I'm recalling any of it correctly.

Dilliw · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2015, 02:04:43 PM »

Quote from: Wayne Orwig on July 19, 2015, 09:45:35 AM

Don't know. And I can't say for certain that this article applies. But read the section on poly cages.

http://www.skf.com/us/products/bearings-units-housings/super-precision-bearings/principles/bearing-specifics/materials/cage-materials/index.html

How hot can that bearing get if front of the 5 spd?

Wayne Orwig · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2015, 02:10:39 PM »

Quote from: Dilliw on July 20, 2015, 02:04:43 PM

How hot can that bearing get if front of the 5 spd?

It's only a problem if you use 'pink slime' for lube and carry a cow bell on the frame.

Dilliw · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2015, 02:35:53 PM »

Quote from: Wayne Orwig on July 20, 2015, 02:10:39 PM

It's only a problem if you use 'pink slime' for lube and carry a cow bell on the frame.

As hard as you may try you're not getting my bell...

rodekyll · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2015, 03:07:51 PM »

I keep my bell on the oil filter hose clamp. That's where the karma is needed.

LowRyter · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2015, 04:48:01 PM »

so is this real or myth?

:Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

Dilliw · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2015, 05:24:35 PM »

Quote from: LowRyter on July 20, 2015, 04:48:01 PM

so is this real or myth?

:Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

It it very real that the ATN9 plastic cage bearings Guzzi is using will fail before their life expectancy of 100,000 hours. What causes it is opinion.

One opinion is that certain "harsh chemicals" in modern synthetic oils can lower the life expectancy of the ATN9 polyamide cage. This is discussed in the SKF article Wayne posted and is the position of the OP. http://www.skf.com/us/products/bearings-units-housings/roller-bearings/principles/bearing-data-general/materials-for-rolling-bearings/cage-materials/index.html

Another opinion is that the use of a bearing set that has 9 balls and not the "max filled" 14 (or now 13 for some mfgs) that was used before the change by Guzzi is the real culprit. If that's the case there's nothing you can do about it except keep riding.

But they do fail....

News:

Author Topic: phenolic resin(plastic) bearing cages (Read 9777 times)

Vasco DG

Rough Edge racing

Rough Edge racing