Author Topic: NGC-belt drive newbie  (Read 9788 times)

Offline tiger_one

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2015, 09:53:01 AM »
^^^^  VERY FAR!!!
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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2015, 09:53:10 AM »
Like the Yammie dealer said they (almost) never break, so they're generally not an issue or worry. If course it makes more sense on a road bike than say a Scrambler for obvious reasons. If you ride a lot of dirt or gravel then a chain or shaft might be a better choice.
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Offline GearheadGrrrl

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2015, 10:15:39 AM »
I've ridden 72k miles on an '07 F800S, and found it to be an economical ride if you stay away from BMW dealerships. BMW demands valve checks/adjustments every 12k miles, at 72k mine's still well within specs, might need to do an adjustment at 150k or so. My replacement belt is still in the tank bag, and the only mechanical failure of any consequence was an alternator stator at 55k miles or so. I went with an aftermarket stator for $200 instead of BMW's $900 "fix" for a design that overheats at low speeds... The early F650/800 GSs have seen a lot of these failures. So in 72k miles I've spent maybe $300 on repairs, plus one battery and a dozen or so tires.

Had I taken the bike to a BMW dealer the story would be quite different- those valve checks are about $500 apiece as it's a half day job, the stator plus labor is over $1000, and just to access the battery requires removing the turn signals and tupperware. So dealer maintenance and repairs would have cost around $5k for the last 72k and 6 years, half the purchase price of the bike. 
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Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2015, 10:23:37 AM »
YES! My Buell takes about 30 minutes to change belt but no service interval is given, changed mine preemtive at 20k
Kept old belt as spare.
   What year is yours?? I have a 97 tube frame Buell and the correct belt tension is very loose  because the arc of the swing arm travel. At least 2 inches up and down play....The Buell service manual suggestion is way too tight and shortens belt and high gear transmission bearing life. Belts adjusted this loose are reported to last 20,000 miles or more ..
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Offline Arizona Wayne

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2015, 11:03:06 AM »
I've ridden 72k miles on an '07 F800S, and found it to be an economical ride if you stay away from BMW dealerships. BMW demands valve checks/adjustments every 12k miles, at 72k mine's still well within specs, might need to do an adjustment at 150k or so. My replacement belt is still in the tank bag, and the only mechanical failure of any consequence was an alternator stator at 55k miles or so. I went with an aftermarket stator for $200 instead of BMW's $900 "fix" for a design that overheats at low speeds... The early F650/800 GSs have seen a lot of these failures. So in 72k miles I've spent maybe $300 on repairs, plus one battery and a dozen or so tires.

Had I taken the bike to a BMW dealer the story would be quite different- those valve checks are about $500 apiece as it's a half day job, the stator plus labor is over $1000, and just to access the battery requires removing the turn signals and tupperware. So dealer maintenance and repairs would have cost around $5k for the last 72k and 6 years, half the purchase price of the bike.



Reasons to ignore what the mfg. recommends for maintenance.  I see the same thing happen with Piaggio MP3 scooters because the book says to.  Changing their drive belt @ 6K miles whereas some get 20K miles out of the same belt, including me.  If you're wholly dependant on the dealer you are screwed.  $ saving reasons it's better to be able to do your own bike maintenance as much as possible.  :boozing:

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2015, 11:20:23 AM »
Well geez , one wonders how BMW even stays in business considering that everyone of their products breaks under the slightest stress  :rolleyes:
 
 Dusty


That is a mystery aren't it!!

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Offline jas67

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2015, 12:55:11 PM »
.... If course it makes more sense on a road bike than say a Scrambler for obvious reasons. If you ride a lot of dirt or gravel then a chain or shaft might be a better choice.

Agreed.   That is why the F800GS has a chain, even though the F800S, ST, and GT all had belts.    The F800R also has a chain.  It is more of the "sport bike" of the family, thus the chain for easier ratio changes (by changing sprockets).

A chain is better than belt for ADV bikes, not just due to the higher likelihood of debris getting in them, but, also due to the suspension travel.
Because the output shaft of the transmission is not concentric with the swing arm pivot, the distance between the two sprockets (or pulleys) varies as the suspension moves.    Chains are much more tolerant of this than belts.
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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2015, 01:04:28 PM »
Hey how about some pics of that Indian? Pics or it didn't happen!

Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2015, 01:04:55 PM »
Agreed.   That is why the F800GS has a chain, even though the F800S, ST, and GT all had belts.    The F800R also has a chain.  It is more of the "sport bike" of the family, thus the chain for easier ratio changes (by changing sprockets).

A chain is better than belt for ADV bikes, not just due to the higher likelihood of debris getting in them, but, also due to the suspension travel.
Because the output shaft of the transmission is not concentric with the swing arm pivot, the distance between the two sprockets (or pulleys) varies as the suspension moves.    Chains are much more tolerant of this than belts.

 And why is the chain more tolerant? 
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Offline pyoungbl

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2015, 02:37:43 PM »
And why is the chain more tolerant?

I'm guessing that the teeth on sprockets are taller than those on a belt drive pulleys...but that's just a guess. 

This is even more important when there is a chance of sand/mud getting in the belt/pulley interface.

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Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2015, 03:13:22 PM »
 No...My question was in reference to his statement about the distance between centers changing as the suspension cycles  up and down....And the chain being more tolerant of this.....But why is it more tolerant ?
I ride junk, some of it actually goes fast

Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2015, 03:32:26 PM »
Chains won't rise up out of engagement . Chains have taller engagement points , and don't actually roll around the sprocket , but bend around . Sorry , not worded very well .

  Dusty

 Ok, go back and read my statement about drive belt slack on my Buell....A chain is not "round" on the sprocket, it has many bends from the link design. And a loose chain will snatch and vibrate...
I ride junk, some of it actually goes fast

Offline Arizona Wayne

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2015, 05:06:46 PM »
On my Italian scooters the belt drive pulley and rear wheel pulley are always aligned because that system is all 1 piece.  It has an idler for when the belt slack happens due to the centrifugal front pulley/clutch expanding and contracting to change the gearing constantly when you're accelerating or decelerating.  At about 5 mph before stop the front pulley(opens) is disengaged from the belt.  It's kind of like riding a 2 stroke bike when it comes to slowing down.

On some of the Jap. maxi-scooters they have a motor w/separate swingarm like MCs do.  BMW scooters use both belt & chain drive.  Suzuki uses both belt & gear drive on their 650.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 05:07:49 PM by Arizona Wayne »

Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2015, 05:53:46 PM »
EBRs have tensioners, don't the Buells? Cruisers don't have room, nor the suspension travel, to need them.

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2015, 06:00:31 PM »
EBRs have tensioners, don't the Buells? Cruisers don't have room, nor the suspension travel, to need them.

I don't believe the tube framed Buells did, though maybe the latter XB's did. I know the Harley XR1200 and XR1200X both used idler pulleys.
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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2015, 10:03:45 AM »
One last little money-saving tip (I am a Guzzi guy after all).

Belt tension can also be set by frequency, plucking the belt like a harp string and measuring the Hz.

The high-priced sonic tension meters cost about $750, but Gates and Continental make free Android apps to do the same thing. And they work. Sort of.

I'm beginning to agree I'm overly concerned. Though the Scout belt tension still seems tight to me.

Offline jas67

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2015, 12:40:16 PM »
Belt tension can also be set by frequency, plucking the belt like a harp string and measuring the Hz.

IIRC, this is how Ducati cam belts are to be tensioned.
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Offline cruzziguzzi

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2015, 12:52:38 PM »
One last little money-saving tip (I am a Guzzi guy after all).

Belt tension can also be set by frequency, plucking the belt like a harp string and measuring the Hz.


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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2015, 02:35:30 PM »
   What year is yours?? I have a 97 tube frame Buell and the correct belt tension is very loose  because the arc of the swing arm travel. At least 2 inches up and down play....The Buell service manual suggestion is way too tight and shortens belt and high gear transmission bearing life. Belts adjusted this loose are reported to last 20,000 miles or more ..
09 uly XT, has a tension wheel so it always is tight and has no adjustment.
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Online SmithSwede

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2015, 07:44:11 PM »
Ok, my 2 cents as an owner of a BMW F800S with belt drive.  My belts are worn out by about 24,000 miles, which coincidentally is the BMW recommended replacement schedule. I'm now running them looser to see if that helps.  But I'm not going to baby the bike just because of the belt.  I got the thing to be a sporty old man bike, and it gets ridden in sporty fashion.

The belt failure mode I experience is the teeth pull off from the belt at the root.  I didn't know that the first time.  That belt looked fine--no holes, fraying, abrasion, etc.  But  if you pushed hard on an individual tooth, you could THEN see the cracking or lifting at the base.  Just rotating the wheel and inspecting the belt won't show you the problem.

The failure mode is also sudden.  Once one tooth fails, within a mile or so it's neighbor fails.  Then its neighbor. Soon you are nursing the bike home at 30 mph listening to loud pops as the teeth shred.   

Irv did find a cheaper replacement for BMW, but it's still pretty pricey compared to a chain. 

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Offline leafman60

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2015, 07:51:25 PM »
Irv did find a cheaper replacement for BMW, but it's still pretty pricey compared to a chain.

Please post information or a link about that cheaper belt. I sold my 800 last year but, at the time, I knew of no aftermarket supplier.

I'd like to have that information.  Also, there are more than one belt size depending on the 800 model.

Thanks



« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 08:18:40 PM by leafman60 »

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2015, 08:25:32 PM »
Leafman:

Irn has a post on the first page of this thread. He's the guy to contact.  I bought two belts from him via the F800 forum where he arranged a group buy. 

Here's his post on this thread:



Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
Reply #29 on: July 29, 2015, 09:00:38 AM
Quote
Hey guys, quick chime on F800ST.  Replaced my 04 Breva 750 with a 2007 F800ST, and love the bike.  Will get back on a Goose soon, but all bikes have their quirks.  Regarding belts, I have put together two group orders for belts, sold almost 20 total, on the F800 riders site.  Ordered directly through Continental Germany, takes time and money out of pocket, but in the end I was able to deliver the belts for $200, not so bad.  If anyone needs one here, let me know, will do another group order. Last time I fronted the money on my own, and still had more orders then belts when they finally came in.
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Offline leafman60

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2015, 08:43:29 PM »
Leafman:

Irn has a post on the first page of this thread. He's the guy to contact.  I bought two belts from him via the F800 forum where he arranged a group buy. 

Here's his post on this thread:



Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
Reply #29 on: July 29, 2015, 09:00:38 AM
Quote
Hey guys, quick chime on F800ST.  Replaced my 04 Breva 750 with a 2007 F800ST, and love the bike.  Will get back on a Goose soon, but all bikes have their quirks.  Regarding belts, I have put together two group orders for belts, sold almost 20 total, on the F800 riders site.  Ordered directly through Continental Germany, takes time and money out of pocket, but in the end I was able to deliver the belts for $200, not so bad.  If anyone needs one here, let me know, will do another group order. Last time I fronted the money on my own, and still had more orders then belts when they finally came in.


Oh okay, I know about that.  That should be the same belt that is made for BMW.  I thought someone else was making them.

I still think the belt drive system is the best.  Efficient, clean, lightweight, no slop, option of sprocket changes etc etc.

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2015, 10:25:19 PM »
I have mixed views.  But I will say this.  I was paranoid about riding BMW over dirt roads and gravel.  But that hasn't been an issue at all.  BMW did a good job of shielding the belt from rocks that could get thrown up in the system.   I live down a long gravel road, and won't hesitate to ride a gravel road.  Haven't had a rock related problem.
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Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2015, 05:21:51 AM »
I don't believe the tube framed Buells did, though maybe the latter XB's did. I know the Harley XR1200 and XR1200X both used idler pulleys.

 Yup, no tensioner. On a Buell only forum I asked if anyone uses a spring loaded tensioner on the tube frame Buells because of the loose belt adjustment. The answers I got back said no don't do it and several said the Sportster belt on the older Buels is a high Kevlar content and will fail when bent "backward" from the tensioner... I don't know if there's any truth to it...
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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2015, 08:35:41 AM »
Yup, no tensioner. On a Buell only forum I asked if anyone uses a spring loaded tensioner on the tube frame Buells because of the loose belt adjustment. The answers I got back said no don't do it and several said the Sportster belt on the older Buels is a high Kevlar content and will fail when bent "backward" from the tensioner... I don't know if there's any truth to it...

Well, like I said the XR and XRX had one and are basically Sportsters.

Though I believe it doesn't tension the belt so much as prevent it from becoming unloaded at the one end of suspension travel.

I THINK you still set tension manually at a spec that won't be too tight when the suspension is fully compressed.

Lowered Sportsters have a spec which is the smallest because they have the least amount of travel and even at rest their belt is close to the tightest point of travel. The taller the suspension (1200R, XR, Buell) then the looser the belt must be at rest since it travels further along the arc from the swingarm/motor to the point straight back when the suspension is fully compressed. Which is probably what led to the idler pulley on the XR and some late-model Buells.
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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2015, 11:27:04 AM »
I do wonder about the Scout spec, as the 12mm is set with no load, and the bike rides with the belt much tighter.

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2015, 11:41:30 AM »
I do wonder about the Scout spec, as the 12mm is set with no load, and the bike rides with the belt much tighter.

It's been my experience with many Harleys (and a Buell) that the HARLEY OEM specs seem a little tight and most people tend to run them a little bit looser.

The Scout is probably similar to a lowered Sporty with regards to amount of rear suspension travel. So even set without a rider in place that rear pulley probably doesn't move far from the front pulley when the suspension is compressed.

And FWIW, the specs on rubbermount Sportsters are approx:  6-8mm for lowered models (like the C and L, probably the X) or 14-16mm for the taller models (most of which aren't made anymore like the R, but maybe the V or N fits this these days).

So 12mm is looser than most current Sportys.

But I might be tempted to run it a hair looser still ... maybe closer to 14mm if I was worried it seemed tight.

I just checked this a week ago on the Sporty and at the tightest spot it was at least the far end of spec (16mm, it might have been as loose as 19mm at one point).

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Online Aaron D.

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2015, 04:01:06 PM »
2 interesting things. I got back from my trip (having checked tension as part of the first service) and found the tension tight. Loosened it-and rechecked a few days later to find it tight. What the heck!

So it's looser now.

Took the picture of my belt into my dealer, as I was driving by. He said it looked pretty normal for a 7500 mile  belt. So the hell with it, I'll just look at it up to the 30K mark.

Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: NGC-belt drive newbie
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2015, 04:34:14 PM »

I just checked this a week ago on the Sporty and at the tightest spot it was at least the far end of spec (16mm, it might have been as loose as 19mm at one point).

 My tuber Buell is easily double that at the tightest point....A belt change on these Buells, and I believe a rubber mount Sporty, is a pain in the ass so I hope it lasts..
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 04:34:59 PM by Rough Edge racing »
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