Streets & Trips, other old apps w Win10

[ITSec]

Based on a question in another forum, I started testing what happens with old apps and Windows 10. Depending on the exact combination of applications you have installed, Windows 10 (and it turns out, Win8.1 in some cases) will not install or may no longer recognize some support files required for older applications like Streets and Trips 2013 and earlier. Windows 10 prefers to eliminate use of older coding components whenever possible, so some things needed for these older apps may suddenly no longer be available. They will then fail to start even on the same hardware where they previously ran with no problems.

I ran some tests to duplicate this issue and find how to fix it - it will likely apply to any number of older applications. The steps required may vary somewhat, based on what specific software is installed.

Here's what fixes Streets & Trips 2013 on Windows 10 (upgraded from Windows 8, likely also applies to Windows 7 upgraded to 10). Unfortunately it's a bit messy (quelle surprise!) and ORDER IS IMPORTANT.

•     Uninstall S&T (or whatever older app we're talking about here).
•     Install Windows C++ Redistributable 2005. (All downloads available from MS website; NOTE: this and some steps below may just show that you have this component already installed - that's OK)
•     Install Windows C++ Redistributable 2008.
•     Install Windows C++ Redistributable 2010.
•     Install Windows . NET Framework 3.5.
•     In Windows 10, select START - PROGRAMS AND FEATURES and from the left column, select TURN WINDOWS FEATURES ON AND OFF. Make sure the box next to .NET Framework 3.5 is checked, and that it says "includes .NET 2.0 and 3.0".
•     OK your way back out, and close the windows you opened.
•     Reboot.
•     Go to the directory where the executable for the software to be installed is located (in this case, Streets and Trips).
•     Right click on the executable for the installation, and select TROUBLESHOOT COMPATIBILITY - follow the prompts and let the system select the settings it thinks appropriate.
•     When you get to the step that says TEST COMPATIBILITY, click that button - it will actually run the installer. If the window with the TEST button returns, just click through and let it close and save the settings. This may occur earlier or later in the process.
•     The installation will take some time since it is running in a controlled mode - and the window will look different from the usual installer window under Win7/8.
•     It is likely that the installation process will give the impression of being carried out twice - it is actually only occurring once. If prompted to allow installation of an additional component (such as the Access engine for S&T), say yes.
•     Let the installation process complete, then close everything and reboot.
•     After rebooting, try opening your application from the Windows 10 START button - New Apps. If prompted, enter the registration key.
•     Run Windows Update to make sure you are using the most recent patched versions of all installed components. NOTE that if you have the HOME version of Win10, updates occur automatically and cannot be forced or scheduled.

I have a dedicated Win10 testbed system - it's not a powerhouse, but it is a tablet with keyboard 2-in-1 that should allow me to see Win10 in the environment it was supposedly designed for.

Let me know how this works for you...

[rodekyll]

I'm getting ready to build my win10 lab rat.  So far I've been avoiding it.  I've been reading about failed updates resulting endless boot loops and some other discouraging early news.  Like most of this stuff I prefer to get sucked into it screaming rather than riding that bleeding edge.  But S&T is an easy one to tinker with -- I'll look into the dotnet solution, thanks.

When we gripe about Microsoft, this forced obsolescence is the level of substance -- not the mac v pc debate.  Microsoft artificially renders products obsolete in order to put the consumer back into their revenue stream.  In my opinion they go out of their way to contrive incompatibilities.  The .DOC v .DOCX is one example; the inability to fluently convert outlook express to modern outlook unless you jump through multiple earlier versions of outlook is a second, and this topic is a third. 

I attempted to do the upgrade when MS invited me to.  They first snooped my computer, and then told me a video card wasn't 'certified' by the vendor to work with W10, so they disqualified the upgrade.  I talked with the video card vendor who said it works fine in W10, but MS was forcing them to 'subscribe' to the certification, which meant paying them regular money to keep their products on the list.  They declined to do that with older cards.  So the forced obsolescence has nothing to do with whether or not it works.  It has everything to do with paying Microsoft money for nothing.

(rant over)

[Daniel Kalal]

As another data point, I updated from Win7 to Win10 and both Streets & Trips and AutoRoute (that's the European version of the same program) still run just as before.  Nothing else was needed.

[rodekyll]

I'm running my old XP version -- S&T 2003.  I'll see how it goes.  :)

[ITSec]

As another data point, I updated from Win7 to Win10 and both Streets & Trips and AutoRoute (that's the European version of the same program) still run just as before.  Nothing else was needed.

As noted, this can occur if all the required support files are recognized as necessary during the upgrade of the OS. Starting from Win7, if the programs were previously installed and working successfully, the C++ and .NET files would be there. The setting to enable .NET is something that reports show is inconsistently applied during Win10 upgrades.

[ITSec]

When we gripe about Microsoft, this forced obsolescence is the level of substance -- not the mac v pc debate.  Microsoft artificially renders products obsolete in order to put the consumer back into their revenue stream.  In my opinion they go out of their way to contrive incompatibilities.  The .DOC v .DOCX is one example; the inability to fluently convert outlook express to modern outlook unless you jump through multiple earlier versions of outlook is a second, and this topic is a third. 
(rant over)

Actually, the move from DOC to DOCX has some actual benefits (at a technical level, for us geeks and techies), and Outlook Express was a disaster that never should have happened. The move from S&T to the 'new' MS Maps was inevitable, since Microsoft decided the cost-benefit of maintaining a stand-alone, non-web version of mapping and routing tools was not in their interests - see Google Maps for the reason why. Of course, for those of us who ride, particularly the long-distance crowd (IBA), having maps that work wherever we are is rather important - we just make up an insignificant part of the overall market.

[Wayne Orwig]

I wonder if they are doing that to trim down the size of the update. Most people will never know it is gone.
I plan to update my Surface today. Will see how that goes.
My Microsoft Streets and Trips must work though. That is still the best for planning long trips.

[Daniel Kalal]

My Microsoft Streets and Trips must work though. That is still the best for planning long trips.

I don't use mapping software to plan my trips (my routes are hardly planned at all), but Streets & Trips is the only thing out there that will let you display previous routes using tens and thousands of marking points.  I save the routes of trips I've taken in a spreadsheet with the lat/lon coordinates to mark the way.  S&T will import that spreadsheet directly.  I've got a lifetime of trips in that spreadsheet, and S&T is the only software that really does the job well.  Everything else is focused on getting you efficiently from point A to point B--something I care nothing about.

[Kentktk]

Another Microsoft nightmare. They give Win 10 out for free, but i`ll bet most of the apps won`t work and you`ll have to pay up for new ones. It`s the Microsoft way.

[charlie b]

Just guessing again?

I upgraded my 'test' laptop and everything has worked, including my CAD programs from Win7.  Seamless upgrade too.

Seems that MS is going the way of Apple and requiring buy in for any vendors that want to supply their products.  Didn't like it when Jobs did it and don't like it now.  If not for my laser cutter I'd put Linux on everything.

[stormshearon]

Just an FYI - if you are using a version of Windows other than Enterprise, upgrading to Windows 10 will remove your ability to manage the Windows update process going forward. Microsoft has decided that the update process going forward will be mandatory unless you are an enterprise customer. In fact, the Update applet is not even shown in the control panel anymore. Also be aware that there are some video issues present that so far no one seems to have a definitive solution for. One of the issues is the black screen of death after what appears to a successful upgrade (my machine at work for instance). After rebooting and logging in to the PC, the screen goes black and stays that way. My only solution was to re-install Windows 7 from a DVD.

Windows 10 is actually a huge gamble for Microsoft. They are pursuing a strategy of treating all machines that run Windows 10 like a modern device (read smart phone) and push out updates on a regular basis that the consumer has no control over. It may not be a winning strategy.

And for reference I work there and have been having lots of interesting adventures with Windows 10 over the last year plus. I work in the enterprise software area and spend my time testing image deployment and management for the enterprise customer.

[ITSec]

Just an FYI - if you are using a version of Windows other than Enterprise, upgrading to Windows 10 will remove your ability to manage the Windows update process going forward. Microsoft has decided that the update process going forward will be mandatory unless you are an enterprise customer. In fact, the Update applet is not even shown in the control panel anymore. Also be aware that there are some video issues present that so far no one seems to have a definitive solution for. One of the issues is the black screen of death after what appears to a successful upgrade (my machine at work for instance). After rebooting and logging in to the PC, the screen goes black and stays that way. My only solution was to re-install Windows 7 from a DVD.

Windows 10 is actually a huge gamble for Microsoft. They are pursuing a strategy of treating all machines that run Windows 10 like a modern device (read smart phone) and push out updates on a regular basis that the consumer has no control over. It may not be a winning strategy.

And for reference I work there and have been having lots of interesting adventures with Windows 10 over the last year plus. I work in the enterprise software area and spend my time testing image deployment and management for the enterprise customer.

All good points, but ones I was not going to raise in this thread, which I wanted to focus on making a common riders' tool work effectively.

For the record, I am unlikely to upgrade my production systems to Win10; only this test bed system has gotten the treatment with the release code. This is largely for the reasons you note, as well as some other concerns I have as a security professional. During my pre-release tests, I had some issues with Win10, but honestly no more than with any other pre-release operating system. As with Win7/8, drivers are the biggest headache, particularly those for video and power management.

Regarding the update process, users of the Home version have no control, users of the Pro version get limited control, and Enterprise version users (or more likely their IT shops) get a broader span of control. However, it's starting to look like some security fixes may be mandatory to all versions, with only the ability to delay them available to Pro and Enterprise users.

[stormshearon]

It is also to be noted that Streets and Trips is no more as well, with the mothership halting all work on the product. So far, the only thing I have found that is even a remote substitute is Tyre (there is a free version as well as cost versions with various options) - which is more suited to the Tom Tom Rider than Garmin devices but does have promise. I keep trying the web based solutions for trip planning, but so far all have come up wanting.

The entire Windows 10 journey is at the very least interesting. I do like it better than 8 or 8.1, but the video issue on my work machine mean I stay on 8.1. After having to rebuild the machine after my last attempt to upgrade to Windows 10, I am staying on 8.1 for the for seeable future.

Oh - and something else. If you are upgrading for 8 or 8.1 and have a modern app installed for a user but not provisioned for all users, the upgrade will not proceed. You have to uninstall the offending app first.

[rodekyll]

The updates that concern me are the ones intended to snoop computers.  I see MS installing the monthly 'malicious software' update without permission as a flat invasion of privacy.  Under W7 and earlier we could opt out of installing it.  Will we be forced to accept it under W10?

[ITSec]

The updates that concern me are the ones intended to snoop computers.  I see MS installing the monthly 'malicious software' update without permission as a flat invasion of privacy.  Under W7 and earlier we could opt out of installing it.  Will we be forced to accept it under W10?

If you upgrade to the HOME version of Windows 10, you will not have the ability to control updates to any installed Microsoft software. If Windows Defender and its associated components are installed, this would include the malicious software update being installed without your interaction or additional permission. The same would go for Office, or any other product.

[Wayne Orwig]

I wanted a 'clean' install on a PC. I installed Win 8.0, updated to 8.1, then updated to Win 10. Added MS Streets and Trips. Worked fine. No hassles.

[rodekyll]

A clean install doesn't sit on previous installs.  It's laid onto a fresh hard drive.

[Wayne Orwig]

A clean install doesn't sit on previous installs.  It's laid onto a fresh hard drive.

Yes it was, a formatted disk.
Well, a blank SSD drive.

[rodekyll]

Oh.  I read your post to mean that you'd first installed W8, did an upgrade to 8.1 and then laid 10 over 8.1.  What you meant is that you'd done all that and then reformatted the disk/installed 10 on a bare drive?


I think SSD hard drives are one of the last decade's few really good innovations in computers.  I've been able to afford one for my Panasonic Toughbook, which gets some severe service conditions.  Aside from the superior impact resistance, it has no moving parts.  This speeds up data access and significantly improves battery life.  If you can afford one, I'd recommend it.

[Wayne Orwig]

Oh.  I read your post to mean that you'd first installed W8, did an upgrade to 8.1 and then laid 10 over 8.1.  What you meant is that you'd done all that and then reformatted the disk/installed 10 on a bare drive?

Sorry, yes I DID install 10 over 8.1. Thus it is free, and I am a Guzzista cheapskate. 

[rodekyll]

I'm clear now.  :)

I thought there was an option to download and save the W10 install files so it can be deployed over several computers without having to download each installation.  I had hoped to do that download and then try a clean install (on a bare drive).  That's the plan for my lab rat.  I hope I didn't misread something, as the rat was brought up from Xp - vista - 7 and has such a mismatch of drivers that moving more forward (v backing up and loading fresh) seems pointless.

[canuguzzi]

Unless you need Windows 10 for some special reason, if what  you have works, use that. Of course the idea that you'll get some continuing support and patches for security holes is ok but for the most part, that is a big stick in the eye too, few people relatively speaking get targeted and have actual hack jobs run against their computers. There is a reason why at one time IT security companies grew like weeds and went public to sell stock.

Anyone heard of a DOS pc getting hacked lately? Plenty of people still use them as well every version through XP but it's all very quiet. Who is targeted? The new systems.

I've been involved in very large enterprise class centers and when the IT security vendors come around it is something to see. By the time they are done with the dog and pony show half the people in the meeting are making appointments with their doctors for a VD check. You should pay some attention to IT security but when it becomes a job and it isn't your job, it is time to stop and go for a good ride instead.

Windows 10 isn't going to be one bit more secure than Windows 8 or Windows 7 or XP and probably worse for a while because there are a whole new set of vulnerabilities Microsoft doesn't know about but which will be found but those wanting to go after them. They aren't investing the labor to keep going after older systems being used by individuals.

It can be easy to get wrapped up in this and if it's part of your hobbies ok I guess. Otherwise run a good anti-virus and let it update, sit behind a good router that isn't set to allow everyone to access in and enjoy life a bit more. If you do on-line banking like many people these days, don't mix that with game playing and stuff, keep one just for that.

If you want to worry about something, worry more about getting double charged for a cup of coffee than someone trying to do you in via your PC.

[rodekyll]

I'm timing my retirement from computer work to coincide with MS dropping support for W7 (2020).  I don't personally plan to migrate to 10 unless there's some compelling reason to do so.  But I'll be supporting the OS in the course of business, so building a lab rat (test bed) on W10 is going to be necessary.

I haven't heard of a DOS machine (or W3.11, 95, 98, NT 3.5 or 4.0, or ME) that supported modern internet protocols in its native mode.  Yes, we're still using those OS's for intranet and stand-alone service, but the internet has evolved past the 16-bit word to the point that those OS's can't participate.  Add the very low numbers of pre-XP (16-bit) computers in service to that inability to access the web and you see that the malware authors have little incentive to build bugs that affect obsolete machinery.

Any dynamic system will have dynamic vulnerabilities.  It's an escalating game of one-uppmanship between hackers and security developers.  But I predict that the hacking effort will soon be focused on large networks and 'the cloud'.  Why target a million machines for hacks when you can get a million machines' worth of data by hacking a central site, like a govm't server or cloud?

[canuguzzi]

I'm timing my retirement from computer work to coincide with MS dropping support for W7 (2020).  I don't personally plan to migrate to 10 unless there's some compelling reason to do so.  But I'll be supporting the OS in the course of business, so building a lab rat (test bed) on W10 is going to be necessary.

I haven't heard of a DOS machine (or W3.11, 95, 98, NT 3.5 or 4.0, or ME) that supported modern internet protocols in its native mode.  Yes, we're still using those OS's for intranet and stand-alone service, but the internet has evolved past the 16-bit word to the point that those OS's can't participate.  Add the very low numbers of pre-XP (16-bit) computers in service to that inability to access the web and you see that the malware authors have little incentive to build bugs that affect obsolete machinery.

Any dynamic system will have dynamic vulnerabilities.  It's an escalating game of one-uppmanship between hackers and security developers.  But I predict that the hacking effort will soon be focused on large networks and 'the cloud'.  Why target a million machines for hacks when you can get a million machines' worth of data by hacking a central site, like a govm't server or cloud?

You can only chase technology, you can't ever catch up. Any decent XP machine can do what many people need to do, including accessing Internet based services.

The DC I managed was rather large and my budget in the millions, just for hardware. As a gov't entity we got attacked on a daily basis by people who really wanted something, not kids playing around. These aren't the same people trying to get into someone's bank account. The focus on the data center has been around for a while now, the people that go after the home PC or even small business are different threats, not the same people.

The IT security industry though makes a fortune off selling security to individuals because they leverage the news of the day and say "do you want all your data to get stolen?". Same kind of thinking goes into selling people home alarm systems. Scare a lot of people and they all buy something, often two of something to keep the bad guys out.

When you see who is doing what the sponsors of the real hard core data breaches aren't hacking anymore, they are integrating with large systems. The average home user doesn't need to really be that concerned with what say the Chinese are trying to do to them via some PC hack job.

Integrating with cloud and Dc systems to obtain data began about 7 years ago, its already happened. The kiddie hackers aren't ever going there, they play around with facebook and other stuff for the quick buck. I saw what happens when someone gets serious about trying to get large systems data. There are no viruses, no hack jobs or anything, that activity drops off like a lead brick. That is because anything like that is seen as annoying competition and might get in the way.

If you want to worry about something, watch the sled driver headed toward you making a left turn, the chances are higher he's going to take you out than someone getting your goodies stored on your PC.

[ITSec]

I'm clear now.  :)

I thought there was an option to download and save the W10 install files so it can be deployed over several computers without having to download each installation.  I had hoped to do that download and then try a clean install (on a bare drive).  That's the plan for my lab rat.  I hope I didn't misread something, as the rat was brought up from Xp - vista - 7 and has such a mismatch of drivers that moving more forward (v backing up and loading fresh) seems pointless.

There is a method to download a clean installation ISO with all necessary files, both for multi-machine installations and for SMB use, as well as for archiving. I haven't tested how it prompts for the key from the previous installation of Windows if that installation is already wiped of the storage, but it apparently does this. Find a key for your lab rat that is either Win 7 or 8, preferably Pro, and you should be OK.

[ITSec]

The IT security industry though makes a fortune off selling security to individuals because they leverage the news of the day and say "do you want all your data to get stolen?". Same kind of thinking goes into selling people home alarm systems. Scare a lot of people and they all buy something, often two of something to keep the bad guys out.

When you see who is doing what the sponsors of the real hard core data breaches aren't hacking anymore, they are integrating with large systems. The average home user doesn't need to really be that concerned with what say the Chinese are trying to do to them via some PC hack job.

Integrating with cloud and Dc systems to obtain data began about 7 years ago, its already happened. The kiddie hackers aren't ever going there, they play around with facebook and other stuff for the quick buck. I saw what happens when someone gets serious about trying to get large systems data. There are no viruses, no hack jobs or anything, that activity drops off like a lead brick. That is because anything like that is seen as annoying competition and might get in the way.

If you want to worry about something, watch the sled driver headed toward you making a left turn, the chances are higher he's going to take you out than someone getting your goodies stored on your PC.

A couple of thoughts from a guy who's been doing IT security, privacy, governance and compliance for a while now (actually, pretty much since it became a recognized area of study).

First, scare tactics are used in the board room as frequently as they are in commercial advertising. That doesn't make them any more legit, but it largely has to do with the fact that it's simpler to scare people about things they don't understand - whether they are at home or in the C-level chair. More sophisticated thought leaders in security will talk about risk and an organization's tolerance for it in the relevant aspects of their business. That doesn't work well for Lifelock 

There are, in fact, various forms of viruses, malware, spear-phishing and social engineering that continue to go into hacks of major targets, but you are correct in saying the more frequent and rising problem come in what we geeks call 'advanced persistent threats' (or APTs). For those watching from the bleachers, computer guys can't deal with anything until it has a TLA (three-letter acronym). Common APTs are characterized by things like compromise of point-of-sale devices (think Target and TJ Maxx), stealthy (and patient) compromise of major data centers that are forced (by budget, technology or poor decisions) to maintain older systems and unencrypted data (the recent government HR data breach), etc.

As far as whether the likelihood of a cage-runner turning left is greater, that depends - there's a lot of riders who maintain their vehicle a whole lot better than they maintain their computing devices. For them, the likelihood of falling victim to phishing, or a drive-by malware installation, or some similar thing is much greater. Just as in riding a Guzzi - you don't have to buy something expensive, but you do need to check the air, oil, brakes and such.

[rodekyll]

I agree that the threat to home computers is still significant.  To speak to the comparison, we've had no motorcycle crashes in Sitka this year, but roughly 30% of my business is the sloggy removal of home and small office computer viruses and malware.  One of the most destructive right now is 'ransomware'.  In a ransomware attack your data files (documents, pictures, music, etc) are encrypted by the bad guy.  His virus posts a message that says what he's done and warning you that you've got some window of time to pony up the ransom before the decryption key expires and your data is permanently gone.  This is a serious claim -- they do indeed have control of your data and do indeed make the key unavailable after the ransom deadline passes.  It's not a corporate database hack for personal identities and such, but if it's a manuscript you've speny years on or an irreplaceable photo archive, it's every bit as devastating. 

The moral -- keep your data backed up and disconnected from the computers -- preferably off-site somewhere.  You might not be able to stop ransomware intrusions, but total data loss is 100% preventable.

[ITSec]

The moral -- keep your data backed up and disconnected from the computers -- preferably off-site somewhere.  You might not be able to stop ransomware intrusions, but total data loss is 100% preventable.

With the low cost of large, portable, external hard drives, it's just good housekeeping to back up your machines and then keep the drive at a friend's house, or storage facility, or some other location away from home. I saw a 4 terabyte drive today for only $130, including backup software. Seems to me it would always be worth a hundred bucks or so to have a disaster recovery option...