Help to Remove Steering Stem on T4 Model

[Guzzi_Don]

I am having trouble removing the steering stem from my T4 ('81 model) - same as T3 model essentially.

I have stripped everything from around the area to get a good go at it but still cannot get the steering stem to budge.



I have removed the top triple clamp, the staunchions, the top nut and bearing cover and according to the manual it has tapered bearing. Tapered bearings in my experience just come apart without any fuss.



With the top nut replaced I have severly tapped the top of the stem with my lump hammer and it appears to be as solid as a rock. No downward movement at all.

See view in pics of bearing from the top with rollers visible, but alas no movement.





Picture below shows no movement at all.



Have I missed something? Is there an Italian trick that has been used that I am not aware of?

Help is required from people who know about these things. It's different from all the other steering heads I have removed.

Thanks for any and all help offered.

[Vasco DG]

Original bearings by the look of it. They've been in there for thirty five years my guess is they are rusted to the stem. Give the stem a good soak with penetrating oil and leave it overnight then ge a block of hardwood to put on top of the stem and try a few really good whacks to get it moving. DO NOT beat directly on the stem with a lump hammer! You'll mushroom the tube, damage the threads and render it useless.

Pete

[charlie b]

I had to do that to the T5 when I replaced the head bearings.  Took a few good smacks with the hammer to get it free of the bearing.  Had to cut off the lower bearing race (dremel tool).

[Groover]

Had this same problem when I removed mine (81 G5). Seems to be (from my conclusion) that it's a problem with this generation lower triple tree (fat leading edge).

What worked for me:

1) Be sure the frame is on a solid surface (kick stand isn't solid enough, so maybe sit the entire frame on the floor)
2) Use some sort of soft metal plate to protect the tube (I used a brass door hinge), thick aluminum anything like that. Also put the nut on it so you can unscrew it to fix the threads if they get a little messed up.
3) Use a clob hammer and strike hard. Not rubber or wood mallet (the one shown on the floor in one of your pics is perfect)

After removed, you may need to use a dremel as suggested above to get the lower bearing race off. Once the bearings were both off, I sanded the areas where the bearings go so I wouldn't have this problem again in the future. Check often with the sanding as that tube us actually very soft metal.

Good luck.

[not-fishing]

Also if you know a Carpenter or Laborer get them to do the strike.  Most people don't really know how to use a single-jack or double-jack properly.

You want a John Henry who can use a lighter touch when necessary.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

nut on steerer

block o wood over that

dead blow hammer

dont strike gingerly

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

for inspiration

[Chuck in Indiana]

nut on steerer

block o wood over that

dead blow hammer

dont strike gingerly

Won't work.  You need something that won't give like wood does. Getting the shock is what it's all about. I'd put the nut on the stem and hit it with my big copper hammer. If that doesn't do it, I'd shoot some AeroQroil in/around it, tap tap, let it sit overnight. The next day, I'd put some heavy aluminum or Delrin on top and smite that sucker. 

[Guzzi_Don]

Original bearings by the look of it. They've been in there for thirty five years my guess is they are rusted to the stem. Give the stem a good soak with penetrating oil and leave it overnight then ge a block of hardwood to put on top of the stem and try a few really good whacks to get it moving. DO NOT beat directly on the stem with a lump hammer! You'll mushroom the tube, damage the threads and render it useless.

Pete

Thanks Pete. Not quite that stupid. I refitted the nut and as you said was giving it a fair beating from above using a thick brass strap between hammer head and the steering stem with nut fitted. No prize yet though. Penetrating oil to be applied when I get home from work today. Then I will give it another go.

It was good to have an explanation of just what has happened though - gives me more insight into how to remove it.

Thanks

[rodekyll]

The problem is that the steering stem is stuck in the TOP bearing inner race.  If it's not simple rust, then it could well be a burr or chunk has bound the shaft to the race.  If you can get a puller onto the top of the stem (or somehow get constant, significant pressure on the stem with some sort of press) you might be able to then tap on the top bearing inner race with a drift and shock the stem free.

Finding a safe way to heat the top inner race might also help. 

I'm only tossing these ideas in because nothing else seems to be working for you.  I wouldn't suggest these solutions for normal circumstances.

[Guzzi_Don]

Thanks Guys for ALL the suggestions, encouragement, tips. Glad to hear it has happened to others. Not Robinson Crusoe then.

BTW John Henry lives just down the road from me. Nice fellow. Not sure he'd be any good on the end of a hammer though. Bit puny.

[Groover]

Mine wasn't rusty, was just tight as S%*T

See image. The one to the left is mine (the super tight one I was having a problem removing like yours), the one to the right was off a different Tonti frame (T3 I'm guessing)

[Guzzi_Don]

Mine wasn't rusty, was just tight as S%*T

See image. The one to the left is mine, the one to the right was off a different Tonti frame (T3 I'm guessing)

Yes mine is like the shaft on the left with not as much thread on the top.

I sprayed it with WD40 this morning before I left for work (4.45am) and plan to pick up some penetrating oil on my way home this arvo.

[Guzzi_Don]

The problem is that the steering stem is stuck in the TOP bearing inner race.  If it's not simple rust, then it could well be a burr or chunk has bound the shaft to the race.  If you can get a puller onto the top of the stem (or somehow get constant, significant pressure on the stem with some sort of press) you might be able to then tap on the top bearing inner race with a drift and shock the stem free.

Finding a safe way to heat the top inner race might also help. 

I'm only tossing these ideas in because nothing else seems to be working for you.  I wouldn't suggest these solutions for normal circumstances.

Thanks Rodekyll, I had thought about using heat myself but the thought of an open flame melting all that grease in there and the resulting smoke bomb filling my garage has put me off so far. It's not out of the question though if push comes to shove.

On another slightly related issue I had EXTREME trouble removing the LH fork leg from the triple clamp. I removed the upper triple clamp that holds the handlebars easily enough. I removed the lower clamping bolt. I spread the split in the lower clamp as far as I could by knocking a large screwdriver in there. Still I couldn't get the fork leg to move downwards at all. I ended up having to knock it out with a lump hammer (pictured on floor) and an old spark plug socket placed on top of the alloy filler cap (so as not to break off the air valve). When I finally had the LH fork leg out I removed the RH leg which came out much easier. The RH fork leg slipped into The LH lower triple clamp with a little twisting effort and goes all the way up. I can't work out why the LH fork leg had to be driven all the way out. It's not like there was a small section that was burred or damaged in some way that would cause a tight spot. It was hard all the way out until the leg finally dropped out of the bottom of the lower clamp. Also the chromed fork legs where the triple clamp attaches to them are almost identical in measurements.

It's got me beat. I have a tool maker friend who I will probably take the fork tubes around to this afternoon to do some proper measurements on with his micrometers as opposed to my vernier caliper.

[rodekyll]

Then it's not unreasonable to think the bike has been over hard, bending the fork tube and the steering post.  You might roll the tube on a flat surface to check it.


I don't know how you can heat the bearing race without also burning grease.  Burned grease by itself isn't anything more than a stink, but if the fumes are nasty or a fire happens it could be bad.  I'd do it outside -- and only as a last resort.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks Guys for ALL the suggestions, encouragement, tips. Glad to hear it has happened to others. Not Robinson Crusoe then.

BTW John Henry lives just down the road from me. Nice fellow. Not sure he'd be any good on the end of a hammer though. Bit puny.

True, true.. 
Getcha some AeroQroil, or for this job a 50-50 mix of acetone (fingernail polish remover) and ATF. It's particularly good when something is rusted together.

[Oldrat]

I'd be really surprised if none of the above work and you still have a problem.
But plenty of soaking with penetrating fluid not WD40 is definitely part of the solution.

If you are getting nervous about the amount of force you are applying to the stem, you might want to consider several sharp blows with a centre punch around the inner race.  It'll either jolt it and free it or it'll shatter it and free it up.

You'll need to be careful not to damage the headstock. Certainly only do this as a very last resort and   make sure you don't strike the outer race.

Failing that a dremel cutting disc looks like the final option.

[Guzzi_Don]

I'd be really surprised if none of the above work and you still have a problem.
But plenty of soaking with penetrating fluid not WD40 is definitely part of the solution.

If you are getting nervous about the amount of force you are applying to the stem, you might want to consider several sharp blows with a centre punch around the inner race.  It'll either jolt it and free it or it'll shatter it and free it up.

You'll need to be careful not to damage the headstock. Certainly only do this as a very last resort and   make sure you don't strike the outer race.

Failing that a dremel cutting disc looks like the final option.

Thanks Old Rat, I only sprayed it with WD40 as that's all I had in my garage at 4.45am and plan on getting some penetrating fluid on my way home this afternoon.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks Old Rat, I only sprayed it with WD40 as that's all I had in my garage at 4.45am and plan on getting some penetrating fluid on my way home this afternoon.

Attaboy. Don't forget the option of Acetone/ATF.. cheap. Works great. (Guzzi content) I've seen tests where it actually beats AeroQroil on steel stuff. The rest aren't in the same league.

[AL NH]

Could it be that the fork lock is locked?

[Guzzi_Don]

Could it be that the fork lock is locked?

I know it looks like that but I locked the steering stem so it didn't move around while I was trying to refit the fork tube to the lower clamp. The hammering attempts were made prior to me taking the pictures and the lock was not on at that time.

Good pickup though and attention to detail.

[Howard R]

The acetone/ATF mix is probably the best penetrant there is, and cheap (Guzzi content ) & easy to make at home.  Be aware, however, that the acetone endows the solution with prodigious paint removing properties so if you use it be careful where it goes unless you already plan on repainting the frame.

Good luck!

Howard

[Chuck in Indiana]

The acetone/ATF mix is probably the best penetrant there is, and cheap (Guzzi content ) & easy to make at home.  Be aware, however, that the acetone endows the solution with prodigious paint removing properties so if you use it be careful where it goes unless you already plan on repainting the frame.

Good luck!

Howard

Yeah, I mentioned in passing that it was fingernail polish remover..

[acogoff]

    Yup- Aerokroil overnight, smite like you mean it and then there is always heat the bearing cone- should come loose.

[Groover]

Some information in this linked thread from when I had this same issue:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75788.0;nowap

Hope that helps.

[Guzzi_Don]

Some information in this linked thread from when I had this same issue:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75788.0;nowap

Hope that helps.

Thanks Groover for the link. All links are appreciated on how to accomplish this task.

Different ones on here have mentioned using a Dremel and cut off wheels to remove bearings. Could this be explained in more detail?

[rodekyll]

That's for after you get the stem out.  The lower bearing race is traditionally the stuck one.  You can either figure out a press plate for it or cut it off.  A lot of us go straight to the torch or cut-off wheel rather than trying to finesse the race.

I don't think you'll get the cut-off wheel to work unless you can first move the bearing out of the headstock.  If it's still bound after it clears its pocket, then some cutting tool might help.

[SED]

From the first photo it looks like the steering is locked.  If so it is going to lock the stem in place.  Can you turn the lower tree?  Apologies if I missed something.

[Guzzi_Don]

From the first photo it looks like the steering is locked.  If so it is going to lock the stem in place.  Can you turn the lower tree?  Apologies if I missed something.

Refer to Reply #20

[Guzzi_Don]

An update for those interested;

I took the two fork tubes around to my tool maker friend and it turns out the LH fork tube is .002" bigger than the RH fork tube. So armed with a scraper that my friend loaned me I went home and enlarged the lower LH triple clamp so the fork would fit reasonably well. Pic below.



Then I moved on to the next job. I had bought some acetone to mix with ATF fluid to soak the steering head bearing area overnight. But prior to doing that I thought I would give it one more attempt to drive the steering stem out of the headstock. Lump hammer and piece of hardwood at the ready and with the forum advice to give it some serious thumps off I went. To my amazement on the 3rd whack I felt something move, so more whacks and there was a little more movement until I got to this stage and had a rest.





Steering stem out finally after a bit more effort from me.



Next I drove the outer bearing shells out of the headstock in the frame. Fortunately they both came out without much effort. See below.





Now the next task is to remove the lower inner bearing from the steering stem. See below. Not looking forward to that one. All offers of advice welcome.



I have ordered all the relevant parts to complete the reassembly, bearings, seals, etc.

I do have to attack the steering stem though where the top inner bearing seats as this diameter is .0047" larger than the ID of the bearing which in anybody's language is way too tight. Goes along with my theory that they threw the T4 models together with left over parts without checking anything too much. With the upper bearing that tight it would have been impossible to do any steering head adjustments over the years. BTW there was no corrosion or rust in there as can be seen in the pictures. The bearing was just way too tight on the stem. So the stem has to be reduced to a smaller size which I will do when the new bearings arrive. Might use a belt sander to do that task me thinks.

I could do with some advice on the front forks and their disassembly. When I had the forks on the work bench at my tool maker friend's place I pulled on the staunchion to check for sideways wear of the tube in the lower half and the tube pulled completely out of the lower leg. What was holding it in place -- NOTHING.

Any suggestions on how to remedy this? What has happened? Am I going to have trouble removing the allen bolt from the bottom of the lower leg?

I have ordered new seals for the lower fork leg as well.

How do I disassemble the fork legs? Obviously I will have to disassemble the LH fork leg to see how it goes together so I can piece the RH leg back together in the correct order.

ALL advice appreciated.

Thank you very much.