A riding mistake that is made just a little too often.

[zokn]

There's another reason to keep to the right hand section of your lane when rounding a left turn in the road: increased/earlier visibility - for the rider, the driver coming toward you, and others on or near the roadway (pedestrians, cars entering the roadway, bicyclists, etc.). Keeping to the right in left turns and to the left in right turns gives you a better view up the road to see other vehicles approaching and to see other hazards, such as cars exiting driveways or roads, and gives others more time to see you. These techniques are taught to and practiced by UK motorcycle police riders.

Debris on the road is not to be disregarded, but it is usually, if present, in the area between the right car wheel's track and the shoulder. Bikes keeping to the right need not be further right then the car tire track to gain from this positioning and still avoid most, if not all, debris.

Maximizing visibility for the rider and others is one of the easiest ways we can make ourselves safer when riding. Staying within our personal skill's limits is the other, which includes riding at speeds appropriate for the road and the environment. (Environment here means all the stuff we may/will encounter, such as other vehicles, people, city spaces vs rural, etc.)

And as someone already mentioned, riding on roads is never to be taken as a track day.

[56Pan]

 :1:

There's another reason to keep to the right hand section of your lane when rounding a left turn in the road: increased/earlier visibility - for the rider, the driver coming toward you, and others on or near the roadway (pedestrians, cars entering the roadway, bicyclists, etc.). Keeping to the right in left turns and to the left in right turns gives you a better view up the road to see other vehicles approaching and to see other hazards, such as cars exiting driveways or roads, and gives others more time to see you. These techniques are taught to and practiced by UK motorcycle police riders.

Debris on the road is not to be disregarded, but it is usually, if present, in the area between the right car wheel's track and the shoulder. Bikes keeping to the right need not be further right then the car tire track to gain from this positioning and still avoid most, if not all, debris.

Maximizing visibility for the rider and others is one of the easiest ways we can make ourselves safer when riding. Staying within our personal skill's limits is the other, which includes riding at speeds appropriate for the road and the environment. (Environment here means all the stuff we may/will encounter, such as other vehicles, people, city spaces vs rural, etc.)

And as someone already mentioned, riding on roads is never to be taken as a track day.

 :1:  All good advice.  My .02.

[charlie b]

Like John said, do NOT blame the bus driver in that picture.  It is in the correct position for the turn.  Same with a larger RV or a truck pulling a fifth wheel trailer.  They have to swing wide in order for the rear/trailer wheels to stay on the road.

Most roads with tight turns like that have restrictions on vehicle size.  Some do not.

The key here is that just because your tires are in your lane, you are not.

And a right hand turn has the same kind of caution.  In some areas there is no road shoulder past the 'white stripe' and the hwy dept will put road signs right next to the road.  Lean over good with the wheels near the white line and your head will get clipped by a road sign post.

Bottom line is if you want to race go to a track.  Blind curves are not where you want to 'hit the apex'.

There used to be a pretty good video of a F1 rider and his crashes.  But, instead of clear runoffs and hay bales they photoshopped in curbs, light poles, other vehicles, etc.  Seeing his body slide toward an oncoming truck was interesting.  Not something you get up and walk away from.

[Wayne Orwig]

That picture shows a bike that is just close to the center line, and a bus that has crossed the center line. There is even a huge amount of wasted space on the other side of the bus that is unused.
If you are running an over sized vehicle, on a narrow windy road, YOU are responsible for maintaining your lane or at least warning traffic ahead properly.

[mjptexas]

Good illustration of the difference between racing and riding.  When racing, you can aim for the best line, but when you're sharing the road, you have to pick the safe line.  Forget what you learned to do on track day.

AMEN!

Years ago after viewing a rider safety video I changed my riding technique through corners.  I look for the line that will give me the most visibility as to what is in front of me on the road.   Has worked well for me as I've 'shared' my lane with more than one oncoming driver drifting across the line in a tight curve.

[charlie b]

That picture shows a bike that is just close to the center line, and a bus that has crossed the center line. There is even a huge amount of wasted space on the other side of the bus that is unused.
If you are running an over sized vehicle, on a narrow windy road, YOU are responsible for maintaining your lane or at least warning traffic ahead properly.

As John mentioned that is not wasted space as completing the turn the rear wheels will be nearly off the road.

Yes, the road is too tight turns for a bus or RV, but, in many areas that is where the bus route exists.

NY 218, Storm King Highway was the passenger bus route for that area.  The road in places did not even have center lines.

Yep, bus or truck driver may be at fault if they are on a road illegally.  If you are dead will it matter to you?


PS from the angle I see the rider's head is over the centerline too.

[gooseontheloose]

Not just on bends either, as demonstrated in London recently!   

https://youtu.be/C1aSvoIpVss

[Eadnams]

This is really great!

[jas67]

This picture is a good warning to me...

 :1:

[Arizona Wayne]

I find this picture purports what it is..........hypothe tical and non-occurring in my real world.  In the 1st place that bus in no way can safely make that tight a turn w/o blocking the oncoming lane doing so.   When I go into a corner like that I start from the outside of the lane to give me as much time as I can to see if anyone is coming anywhere near my lane to obstruct my line thru it.  I live to ride thru corners exactly like this and have done it every chance I can for over 50 years with rarely having anything close to this fake pic happening.  I wouldn't ride MCs if I thought these kinds of accidents were probable.

[Wayne Orwig]

Yep, bus or truck driver may be at fault if they are on a road illegally.  If you are dead will it matter to you?

I agree, dead right is still dead. I was just respond to a few ' the bus was in the right' thinking comments. No, the bus is NOT right, yes we as motorcyclists need to be aware that they ARE trying to kill us.

[LowRyter]

tight left handers and hairpins are the worst.  Riders are taught to look far ahead, keeping their heads up, and that can bring you over or close to the line unless the rider looks down.

[lucian]

What an excellent post. An image I will remember hopefully on every blind turn, thank you.

[johnr]

I agree, dead right is still dead. I was just respond to a few ' the bus was in the right' thinking comments. No, the bus is NOT right, yes we as motorcyclists need to be aware that they ARE trying to kill us.

Wayne, on that road, the bus most certainly isn't in the wrong. There is no other place he could possibly be, accept further out.  On a narrow winding road, this is a scenario that is to be expected.

Accidents on this nature occur every year on the roads here (especially the Milford Road) so it is very much a real world scenario.

As some others have pointed out, it is not so much about right or wrong, it's about road craft and survival.

[Arizona Wayne]

Wayne, on that road, the bus most certainly isn't in the wrong. There is no other place he could possibly be, accept further out.  On a narrow winding road, this is a scenario that is to be expected.

Accidents on this nature occur every year on the roads here (especially the Milford Road) so it is very much a real world scenario.

As some others have pointed out, it is not so much about right or wrong, it's about road craft and survival.

Glad I don't live in a country that would allow busses to try to turn a sharp corner like that to the detriment of oncoming traffic.  I know such countries exist, but again glad I don't have to deal with such things. 

[Clancy]

Most of my experiences of oncoming vehicles crossing the centre line have involved motorbikes - coming into the corners too hot to stay on their side of the road.
Scrares the shit out of me everytime.

[johnr]

Glad I don't live in a country that would allow busses to try to turn a sharp corner like that to the detriment of oncoming traffic.  I know such countries exist, but again glad I don't have to deal with such things. 

Well Wayne, I can only conclude that you live in an area where the roads tend to be straight and wide. 

If there is an area where tourists want to go to then normal commerce dictates that a way will be found to get them there. Milford Sound is one of those places, and there is no practical alternative means of getting there. There is an airport, but it's a particularly dangerous one requiring a special pilots licence and is incapable of handling large planes.  The alternative is for the tourist to hire a vehicle and drive himself.

Were they all to do this Milford would be unable to accommodate the parking and the traffic on that road would be horrendous.  Many do that though but unfortunately tourists have proved an even greater danger on the road (than buses) to the point where there is a current outcry to do something about it. ( This applies mostly, but not entirely, to Asian tourists who we believe get their licences free with cereal packets)

Any high tourism area is going to have a similar problem. On the Stelvio pass for example there are corners which some of the larger buses can not get around in one go. You see photos and vids of them backing up and taking the corner in two bites.

Were we to stop buses from using twistie roads in this country we may as well close down the entire tourism industry as many roads fall into that category, at least in sections.

Trucks too will have to use such on many occasions as often there is no other practical way to move heavy stuff into many areas. (and they can be even bigger)

No, this picture is about understanding that not all other vehicles on the road are motorcycles and that the others that you must share it with have their own and different limitations and abilities.

It's part of our brief to remember this and allow for them.

Good grief, most heavy vehicles can not even see directly behind them (and most car drivers don't even look)

Anyway, having blathered forth about Milford quite a bit here, I thought I'd trow in a few pics of the place, in case anyone is interested. (None of them mine)





Part of the road in (and out again) Much improved since I was last there. Then it was one and a bit lanes of rock and gravel with no barrier fence.


Some more of the road. Same area I think.


There are problems on that road. Some of this nature (and that driver would be in a world of trouble)


And some of this nature at certain times of year.


People can get there this way, but I think the cruise ships just come in and straight back out. (Surprised they are allowed in there at all.)


If you stop at the highest point (just before going into the tunnel) you might be lucky enough to meet one of these guys. He is a Kea (key-a), a native parrot. He is inquisitive and friendly, enjoys posing for photos and ripping bits off cars. He is the most intelligent bird I have ever met and very endangered. There are only about 600 left in the world. (DON'T feed him)

 
Hmmmm. Once Guzz is back on the road I can see a trip up there in the offing.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

[Nic in Western NYS]

That picture shows a bike that is just close to the center line, and a bus that has crossed the center line. There is even a huge amount of wasted space on the other side of the bus that is unused.
If you are running an over sized vehicle, on a narrow windy road, YOU are responsible for maintaining your lane or at least warning traffic ahead properly.

File this under "Top 10 Complaints Heard in Line Outside Pearly Gates"

[Lannis]

Glad I don't live in a country that would allow busses to try to turn a sharp corner like that to the detriment of oncoming traffic.  I know such countries exist, but again glad I don't have to deal with such things. 

Our own country is the worst offender, and it's getting worse.    In the mountains of Virginia these days, the most commonly seen sign reads something like:

"Route 738 Not Suitable for Large Trucks.   GPS Routing Not Advised".

The problem is that truck drivers are mindlessly following their GPS routing, and putting their trucks on roads that can't take the truck.

As I was coming from Woolwine VA to Rocky Mount on VA 40 once, I was coming down a hill on my Eldorado toward a sharp downhill left hairpin turn.   As I started braking for the turn, a 60-foot truck appeared coming up the hill around the turn.   His LEFT front wheel was in MY right-hand ditch - in other words, he was spanning the whole road from ditch to ditch.   

Luckily I was on the disk-braked version of the Eldo, and braked as hard as I could as he struggled to get the truck around the turn and back into his lane.   I ended up in a shallow ditch on my right as his truck slid by in MY lane.

Happens all the time, and getting worse now that truck drivers, like other people, are letting their stupid-phone substitute for a brain when driving ...

Lannis

[donn]

There are some interesting videos online, featuring kea tricks that demonstrate considerable intelligence.  If I were a smart and nearly extinct bird, though, I think I would quit ripping up automobiles.

We do have some roads that make sharp curves around cliffs, the narrowest ones I can think of right off hand are in the Hawaiian islands.  Our solution, surprised you haven't thought of this, has been to repeal heathen Euclidean geometry in favor of something more faith-based.

[Spuddy]

SHIT...  Been there, done that.

Spud

[Arizona Wayne]

Our own country is the worst offender, and it's getting worse.    In the mountains of Virginia these days, the most commonly seen sign reads something like:

"Route 738 Not Suitable for Large Trucks.   GPS Routing Not Advised".

The problem is that truck drivers are mindlessly following their GPS routing, and putting their trucks on roads that can't take the truck.

As I was coming from Woolwine VA to Rocky Mount on VA 40 once, I was coming down a hill on my Eldorado toward a sharp downhill left hairpin turn.   As I started braking for the turn, a 60-foot truck appeared coming up the hill around the turn.   His LEFT front wheel was in MY right-hand ditch - in other words, he was spanning the whole road from ditch to ditch.   

Luckily I was on the disk-braked version of the Eldo, and braked as hard as I could as he struggled to get the truck around the turn and back into his lane.   I ended up in a shallow ditch on my right as his truck slid by in MY lane.

Happens all the time, and getting worse now that truck drivers, like other people, are letting their stupid-phone substitute for a brain when driving ...

Lannis

Then it's a good thing I don't ride curvy roads on the East coast.  Out West these kind of scenarios are rare.  If you ride a trike or sidecar rig you are SOL!  I've had a few semi truck drivers play chicken with us coming over on our lane on a straight apparently just to see how I react.  then pull over b4 we meet.  If a rider is going to be so paranoid maybe they should stick to 4 wheels.

[donn]

Then it's a good thing I don't ride curvy roads on the East coast.  Out West these kind of scenarios are rare.

These guys may be encountered on narrow curvy roads somewhat to the west of you.

[Arizona Wayne]

These guys may be encountered on narrow curvy roads somewhat to the west of you.

Those logging trucks are common in the Pacific Northwest and if you can't match their 65 mph speed on curvy roads you  BETTER!!     But the roads they use are made for them and they know the roads like the back of their hand.

[opc]

Glad I don't live in a country that would allow busses to try to turn a sharp corner like that to the detriment of oncoming traffic.  I know such countries exist, but again glad I don't have to deal with such things. 

Let's not gloss over the point, though.  While the big rigs may not be on those back country twisty roads, I've seen plenty of mini-vans, 5th wheelers, and other camping trailers swing into the on-coming lane on hairpins and s-curves. 

[Wayne Orwig]

Wayne, on that road, the bus most certainly isn't in the wrong. There is no other place he could possibly be, accept further out.  On a narrow winding road, this is a scenario that is to be expected.

So in your country it is OK to drive on the wrong side and hit someone in their lane?
Pretty goofy.

And I though Americans liked to always blame the 'other guy'.

[nick949]

Deviating slightly from the OP's post - the same mistakes occur on gravel roads, where the rider tends to choose the line with the best footing, which is often on the inner edge of a curve.  The problem is, in avoiding the loose stuff on the outer curve, you put yourself directly in the path of on-coming vehicles.

When riding roads with little traffic, it's easy to get lulled into a false sense of security and assume that nothing will be coming.  But........that logging truck, that Hydro Quebec pickup, that RV pulling God-knows-what unnecessary crap, will be barreling towards you when you least expect it.

How do I know this............?(hint - guess who took the picture and where I am on the road!)

Nick

[Triple Jim]

While the big rigs may not be on those back country twisty roads, I've seen plenty of mini-vans, 5th wheelers, and other camping trailers swing into the on-coming lane on hairpins and s-curves.

Hell, around here it's common for a passenger car or pickup truck to drift to the left over the centerline to prepare for a right turn.  They seem to think they're driving a big rig or something.  But complaining and/or getting angry doesn't help.  The only thing that does is to expect that anything that can go wrong will.

[charlie b]

Glad I don't live in a country that would allow busses to try to turn a sharp corner like that to the detriment of oncoming traffic.  I know such countries exist, but again glad I don't have to deal with such things. 

Wayne, be careful out there because it does happen here, all too frequently.  Most of the time it is due to the state highway department not properly posting the road, so, you get a bus or other long vehicle on a road with tight turns.  And, as a driver of a longer rig, no you cannot find out how 'curvy' a road is all the time.  Yes, I research roads I know I will be on, but, getting lost or missing a turn, or being 'sent' on a detour will put me on a road I know nothing about.  If the road is not posted with limitations then I will be that guy trying to fit a 40ft rig on a harpin turn.

PS And yes, when driving a rig like that you are to 'warn' oncoming drivers.  In the states I have had a license (4 of them so far) all that means is honking the horn. 

[johnr]

There are some interesting videos online, featuring kea tricks that demonstrate considerable intelligence.  If I were a smart and nearly extinct bird, though, I think I would quit ripping up automobiles.

They got into serious trouble when they started attacking sheep. Farmers naturally were somewhat displeased and their answer came in the form of a shotgun. Reduced the Kea numbers considerably. I believe the Keas have for the most part given up on that practice as a result, and now of course he is protected.

We do have some roads that make sharp curves around cliffs, the narrowest ones I can think of right off hand are in the Hawaiian islands.  Our solution, surprised you haven't thought of this, has been to repeal heathen Euclidean geometry in favor of something more faith-based.