Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.

[Peter from Sch'dy]

What are you going to do? Draw us a map. Bobs plan looks reasonable under the circumstances. Not ideal, but reasonable. Not being an 8v owner I can't experience the full effect of this bitter pill. Kind of spoils any brand loyalty you might have had.

Best,
Peter

[Offcamber1]

Gentlemen,

Moto Guzzi always has been, and likely always will be, a boutique manufacturer.  Without the volume to spread R&D as well as warranty costs, these types of things will always happen from time to time.

If that reality does not appeal to you, sell it and move on to a mass produced bike from a major manufacturer.

YMMV

Kip

[Kev m]

Gentlemen,

Moto Guzzi always has been, and likely always will be, a boutique manufacturer.  Without the volume to spread R&D as well as warranty costs, these types of things will always happen from time to time.

If that reality does not appeal to you, sell it and move on to a mass produced bike from a major manufacturer.

YMMV

Kip

And to think, I've been called an apologist.

I don't know what kind of alternate reality is supposed to accept this kind of FU and take it on the chin.

But any modern motorcycle manufacturer (that charged anything around typical market prices) should be making 100k mile machines that don't need things like CAMSHAFTS, LIFTERS, ROCKER ARMS, etc. during that (or realistically relatively long after that) period.

That said, we have seen some odd failures across the industry since the introduction of modern reduced ZDDP oils.... Hmmm

[tazio]

What are you going to do? Draw us a map. Bobs plan looks reasonable under the circumstances. Not ideal, but reasonable. Not being an 8v owner I can't experience the full effect of this bitter pill. Kind of spoils any brand loyalty you might have had.

Best,
Peter

Yes, Peter. A bitter pill, indeed.
Not sure WHAT to do just yet. Just need to wait and see where all this is heading.
My "map" will fit only my circumstances, as Bob's will only fit him, and so on and so on..
In the short term, I plan to monitor valve lash and ride the snot out of it. (leaving out of state on it in the morning)
Seeing good dealers and quality mechanics struggle to provide us with great running Guzzi's, it's just tough to witness Piaggio's
current response that is all.
 Piaggio & C. SpA   is no boutique.

~michael(still loving my guzzi)miller

[Lannis]

Gentlemen,

Moto Guzzi always has been, and likely always will be, a boutique manufacturer.  Without the volume to spread R&D as well as warranty costs, these types of things will always happen from time to time.

If that reality does not appeal to you, sell it and move on to a mass produced bike from a major manufacturer.

YMMV

Kip

Says the chicken to the pig as they're discussing the impact of breakfast on the farmyard animals?         You sound suspiciously like a guy with no flat-tappet 8-valver in the shed at the moment ...       Haven't looked in there for a while though.

Lannis

[ohiorider]

Had to resort to Wiki to recall how it went ......

A Pig and a Chicken are walking down the road.The Chicken says: "Hey Pig, I was thinking we should open a restaurant!"Pig replies: "Hm, maybe, what would we call it?"The Chicken responds: "How about 'ham-n-eggs'?"The Pig thinks for a moment and says: "No thanks. You'd be involved .... but for me it would be total commitment!"

[Lannis]

Had to resort to Wiki to recall how it went ......

A Pig and a Chicken are walking down the road.The Chicken says: "Hey Pig, I was thinking we should open a restaurant!"Pig replies: "Hm, maybe, what would we call it?"The Chicken responds: "How about 'ham-n-eggs'?"The Pig thinks for a moment and says: "No thanks. You'd be involved .... but for me it would be total commitment!"

Yep, one of those jokes whose punchline has become a proverb.    Sort of like "What do you mean WE, paleface?" 

[canuguzzi]

No doubt the future buying advice will mirror that for chrome bores, offer two prices, one for flat tappets intact, one for rollerized.

[Lannis]

No doubt the future buying advice will mirror that for chrome bores, offer two prices, one for flat tappets intact, one for rollerized.

That's already the way the Ducati world works.   One price if the latest engine service including valve lash shimming has been done, another price if it hasn't ....

Lannis

[Penderic]

Two stroke conversion kit.

Get rid of the valve train altogether! 


Move along, nothing to see here.

[Kev m]

That's already the way the Ducati world works.   One price if the latest engine service including valve lash shimming has been done, another price if it hasn't ....

Lannis

Ya know, that's kinda funny now that you mention it.

Looking at this strictly from a financial standpoint, what's the difference between this and a Ducati?

I mean we just paid $1200ish to service Jenn's bike and didn't blink an eye.

[Vasco DG]

I have no idea what the going rate for a basic service with valve check on a Ducati is. For the same service on an 8V Griso I would charge probably $375-450 all up.

That wouldn't include a brake and clutch bleed but the fluid would be checked with a hygrometer. Nor would it include stuff like fork oil change or suspension linkage and swingarm bearing lube or steering head bearing lube. It's a basic *Full* service. All oils, oil filter, air filter check and replace in necessary, valves, TB balance and TPS reset, etc, etc.

So what do you get with the Ducati for the extra 800 oxfords? Just wondering? And how often does this need to be done?

Pete

[Kev m]

I have no idea what the going rate for a basic service with valve check on a Ducati is. For the same service on an 8V Griso I would charge probably $375-450 all up.

That wouldn't include a brake and clutch bleed but the fluid would be checked with a hygrometer. Nor would it include stuff like fork oil change or suspension linkage and swingarm bearing lube or steering head bearing lube. It's a basic *Full* service. All oils, oil filter, air filter check and replace in necessary, valves, TB balance and TPS reset, etc, etc.

So what do you get with the Ducati for the extra 800 oxfords? Just wondering? And how often does this need to be done?

Pete

Well, I should clarify.

That $1200 was more than just a valve service.

This was a standard 7500 mile service (the basic service interval) which includes a lot of checks, plus a number of other big ticket items I added because of the age of the bike. My OM shows the valve checks as a standard item, every 7500 miles for the life of the bike. However I've been told by multiple sources that after the first TWO (15,000 miles) that you can extend them to 15,000/check. I may have even seen that on an official Ducati chart (all model chart).

Anyway the 7500 mile big ticket items are:

* Valves
* Timing Belts*

But because it's been 4 years and this is Jenn's bike (and she was paying) I didn't scrimp and also added the following:

* Brake fluid change
* Clutch fluid change
* FORK fluid change (need to remove the forks for this)
* New Rear Pirelli Angel because the original rear tire was punctured (which prompted finally doing this whole service)


*The bike was 4 years old and running on the original timing belts (Ducati's recommendation is to check tension on them every 7500 miles and to replace them every 2 years. The belts themselves are around $100, but I should add that the belt manufacturer says their belts should be good for 10 years EXCEPT on Ducatis where they don't want to go against the manufacturer's recommendations and potentially buy customer's motors).

I believe this particular dealership's standard VALVE and TIMING BELT CHECK (along with the other basic checks, throttle body sync, check fluids with hygroscope etc.) would have only cost $600.  Fork fluid change was $200. I'm assuming the rear tire was around $200. So the extra $200 was other parts (timing belts) and sundry other items like the fluid changes.

Not unreasonable at all.

But I find it funny that we're probably talking similar amounts to the Roller Conversion for an 8V... which in theory you only have to do once.

I think I find the later unreasonable just because we have all rightly come to think of things like camshafts and rockers and valves as essentially lifetime components and not standard maintenance "wear" items. But taking that emotion out of the picture, the Guzzi 8V owner can tell themselves that they would have spent a LOT MORE in the lifetime of a Ducati motor.

[Aaron D.]

Gee don't blame the oil! Millions of flat tappet engines worldwide, old and new, continue to function every day. Many are brand new.

I do wish that Guzzi would help a bit more, but it's true, sometimes stuff like this happens. 12 years ago it was the hydros.

[blackcat]

....the Guzzi 8V owner can tell themselves that they would have spent a LOT MORE in the lifetime of a Ducati motor.

This was my thought and not just from owning a Ducati as other bikes have high maintenance costs.  And if the owner's of 8V motors do the regular maintenance avoiding the cost of bringing it to the dealer over the course of say 40,000 miles they are way ahead of this problem in terms of finances. BUT, I still wouldn't be happy about doing this fix.

[beetle]

I think I find the later unreasonable just because we have all rightly come to think of things like camshafts and rockers and valves as essentially lifetime components and not standard maintenance "wear" items.

That, I believe, is the crux of the argument. If it cost you $1200 for a service on an 8V, you'd bemoan the cost but still pony up. It's the unnecessary cost of this that's the issue. If you blow a clutch or a big end, or your CARC bearings fail, and you're out of warranty, you're not happy, but there not much to be done but pay for the fix. When it's likely that all flat tappets will probably (eventually) eat themselves regardless of how well the bike is looked after, it's a justifiable anger.

[Lannis]

That, I believe, is the crux of the argument. If it cost you $1200 for a service on an 8V, you'd bemoan the cost but still pony up. It's the unnecessary cost of this that's the issue. If you blow a clutch or a big end, or your CARC bearings fail, and you're out of warranty, you're not happy, but there not much to be done but pay for the fix. When it's likely that all flat tappets will probably (eventually) eat themselves regardless of how well the bike is looked after, it's a justifiable anger.

This.  ^^^^

It's not the money.

If I buy a Ducati, I KNOW what I'm getting into.   I know I'm buying a highly-strung high performance engine with cam belts and bits to help it rev high that NEED to be serviced at given intervals.    The dealer will tell me what it will cost and I buy the bike knowing what the deal is.   THAT'S a true "Pay to Play".

This flat tappet thing is the opposite.   It's an unexpected failure of a basic, unstressed (or shouldn't be stressed) component because someone at the manufacturer was asleep at the switch.    This is (or should be) a LOW-STRESSED touring bike that should hum and rumble along forever like a SP1000; it's not a screaming, case-warping, piston-melting eyes-bugged-out racing engine ....  and what hurts is, this is exactly and specifically why I did NOT buy a Ducati Multistrada and bought a Guzzi instead.   

Lannis

[Vasco DG]

Ah, but there's the crux of the matter. Jen's Ducati is a de tuned engine. The 8V Guzzi engine by contrast is fairly highly tuned for what it is.

Look, as I keep trying to stress I think the whole thing has been and still is being handled very badly and no, owners of failed bikes, (Providing they can supply a full service history.) should not be expected to foot the bill but don't get shitty with your dealer or service agent because we have absolutely zero control over the issue.

Also I completely agree that the problem shouldn't of occurred in the first place, nor should it of been allowed to continue but what I want to see is people informed and wise to the issues and understand them rather than just ranting.

Pete

[Lannis]

Ah, but there's the crux of the matter. Jen's Ducati is a de tuned engine. The 8V Guzzi engine by contrast is fairly highly tuned for what it is.

Look, as I keep trying to stress I think the whole thing has been and still is being handled very badly and no, owners of failed bikes, (Providing they can supply a full service history.) should not be expected to foot the bill but don't get shitty with your dealer or service agent because we have absolutely zero control over the issue.

Also I completely agree that the problem shouldn't of occurred in the first place, nor should it of been allowed to continue but what I want to see is people informed and wise to the issues and understand them rather than just ranting.

Pete

A man needs a good rant sometimes, especially regarding motorcycles.   Otherwise it all builds up and he goes very quiet and his nose swells up and his teeth will start moving about and he becomes very violent and claim that he laid Stanley Baldwin.....

Lannis

[Gootsz]

Well
Heard all and have experienced all.

My 2009(new left over new to me in 2011) Grisio 8v only made to 9K before it started making noise and Pete said to have looked at NOW. Well out of warranty but Guzzi did say i give parts you pay labor.

Now all is done and i go forward. yes it did cost me $1k for it but i could have done that on bling for the bike(did it anyway carbon everything-fender, huggie, starter cover, valve cover shields(only 6 sets every made in USA).

Point is I love it and lavished my coin on it.

By the what is correct valve clearance (heard so many variations) for a roller 8V Griso

Micky

[Steph]

Could someone run the 4 valve head on 2 valves to reduce  the premature wear of the cam until he has saved up (Guzzi content) enough money for the kit ?

[beetle]

By the what is correct valve clearance (heard so many variations) for a roller 8V Griso

4 & 6 thou

[canuguzzi]

It seems so easy to say something is reasonable when you got screwed. The services needed for the Ducati are known and expected. The problems with the flats were not expected, big difference.

I don't know about others but I'd never justify an unexpected expense for a design failure based on the costs for something else. The Ducati is a choice isn't it? Who buys bad hamburger and then says the price is reasonable because filet mignon is more than twice the price? There is no reason to go into despair but saying this is reasonable because something else costs as much or more is really unreasonable.

There is a silver lining though. There are some folks that will discover the root causes, they've posted the upgrade procedure so that the expense can be reduced and I bet extra attention is being paid to oil changes, use patterns and some will preemptively address the problem and that improves the community even if Moto Guzzi/Piaggio doesn't improve its warranty and customer service.

[WitchCityGuzzi]

My Stelvio's tappets went at 50,000 miles (now has 62,000). My wife's Griso SE's tappets went at 33,000. The cost in labor for each was about the cost to have a valve adjustment done on a Ducati. IMHO, it didn't bother me that much other than losing some riding time. After all that, they are both among the least costly vehicles to own I've ever had.

I love my Stelvio to the point if something catastrophic were to happen to it, I'd go out and buy another one tomorrow. My wife feels the same way about her Griso. Guzzi provided the parts for both bikes gratis. The Stelvio was 3 some odd years out of warranty. The wife's Griso a couple of years out.

Yes, I wish that Guzzi had preemptively replaced the flats with rollers, but not the end of the world for me. 


Doug

[leolad]

Ducati behaved the sale way with their defective Sport Classic tanks. It took a class action suit to get them to extend the warranty on the tank...which they replaced with the same defective tank 

[Kev m]

Ah, but there's the crux of the matter. Jen's Ducati is a de tuned engine. The 8V Guzzi engine by contrast is fairly highly tuned for what it is.

Wait, what are we trying to justify or not with that comparison?

For the record, you call 80 crank hp (69rwhp) from a 2v/cyl 696cc twin DE-TUNED and 110 crank hp (95rwhpl) from a 4v/cyl 1151cc twin HIGHLY TUNED?

That means the Duc is making about 73% of the Griso power with only 60% of the engine size and 2 fewer valves per cylinder.

I'm missing something there.

[canuguzzi]

Ducati behaved the sale way with their defective Sport Classic tanks. It took a class action suit to get them to extend the warranty on the tank...which they replaced with the same defective tank 

GM managed to have more than a few people not only accept worthless ignitions but then claim the ability to remove the ignition key while the engine was running was a good thing to have. The GM being less costly to maintain than a Dodge Viper made all the difference.

[Lannis]

My Stelvio's tappets went at 50,000 miles (now has 62,000). My wife's Griso SE's tappets went at 33,000. The cost in labor for each was about the cost to have a valve adjustment done on a Ducati. IMHO, it didn't bother me that much other than losing some riding time. After all that, they are both among the least costly vehicles to own I've ever had.

I love my Stelvio to the point if something catastrophic were to happen to it, I'd go out and buy another one tomorrow. My wife feels the same way about her Griso. Guzzi provided the parts for both bikes gratis. The Stelvio was 3 some odd years out of warranty. The wife's Griso a couple of years out.

Yes, I wish that Guzzi had preemptively replaced the flats with rollers, but not the end of the world for me. 


Doug

Will you quit presenting such a reasonable testimony?    We're on an energetic rant here!!

Lannis

[WitchCityGuzzi]

 

[Vasco DG]

My mistake Kev. I thought Jen's was a 4V.

Pete