VW, now THAT is a major problem.

[canuguzzi]

Yep, if I had the TDI VW, I would be smiling.  No reflash needed, already got the best ECU map available.  Recall, no thanks.

It is unlikely you will be able to avoid it. After being notified of the recall and the money involved expect some kind of enforcement to get the fix installed too.

Never underestimate the ingenuity of government. I bet that if you got the recall notice that said you'd be held personally liable for the violation if you didn't get the recall performed that you'd be right in line with everyone else to get er done.

Cars have to be registered, you need to show proof of insurance. Not too hard to match up something so dear and near to the govt as this recall when it happens. Get a notice that says either prove you had the recall or get fined (it would be in the tens of thousands) and watch how fast people stand in line for the fix.

Its an environmental thing.

[Lannis]

More than a few people these days get more upset about environmental issues than safety issues. They see them much the same correlating damage to the environment to their personal well being and this safety.

Possibly true, but a contradicting factor is the number of huge, oversized vehicles on the road that people purchase NOT because they are the most environmentally sensitive, but because they are the most comfortable, and the most likely to ensure that the driver and passengers will survive the wreck, even if they cause it because they are swaddled in an insulated, "hands-free" environment .... 

A child may get taught in school about snail darters and save-the-whales, but when they are driven to the school a mile in a Cadillac Escalade that sits there and idles for 20 minutes, they'll pick up on that pretty quick .... Do as I say, not as I do doesn't work ever ...

Lannis

[tiger_one]

It is unlikely you will be able to avoid it. After being notified of the recall and the money involved expect some kind of enforcement to get the fix installed too.

Never underestimate the ingenuity of government. I bet that if you got the recall notice that said you'd be held personally liable for the violation if you didn't get the recall performed that you'd be right in line with everyone else to get er done.

Cars have to be registered, you need to show proof of insurance. Not too hard to match up something so dear and near to the govt as this recall when it happens. Get a notice that says either prove you had the recall or get fined (it would be in the tens of thousands) and watch how fast people stand in line for the fix.

Its an environmental thing.

All possible, but I expect it will take years to get to that point.  By that time no telling what the next construction zone will look like on the local interstate.  They can't keep up either.

[AJ Huff]

All possible, but I expect it will take years to get to that point.  By that time no telling what the next construction zone will look like on the local interstate.  They can't keep up either.

I agree, don't rush to the dealer. There are 500,000 VW vehicles over 6 years affected. The EPA lists 14,000,000 light car and truck recalls for emissions for 2009-2011. That's quite a backlog. I live two hours plus from the nearest dealership. They don't send the police to your house to drag your car in for these kind of things.

-AJ

[rocker59]

It is unlikely you will be able to avoid it. After being notified of the recall and the money involved expect some kind of enforcement to get the fix installed too.

Never underestimate the ingenuity of government. I bet that if you got the recall notice that said you'd be held personally liable for the violation if you didn't get the recall performed that you'd be right in line with everyone else to get er done.

Cars have to be registered, you need to show proof of insurance. Not too hard to match up something so dear and near to the govt as this recall when it happens. Get a notice that says either prove you had the recall or get fined (it would be in the tens of thousands) and watch how fast people stand in line for the fix.

Its an environmental thing.

Only in Kalifornia.

There is no system in place to enforce something like your grand scheme, in most of The Country.

[canuguzzi]

Only in Kalifornia.

There is no system in place to enforce something like your grand scheme, in most of The Country.

You don't need to register your car? I thought that was the case in all 50 states. When registering a vehicle you need prove nothing?

Something like " Don't forget to provide proof of your VW Diesel recall fulfillment" wouldn't call you to action?

It wouldn't take very much to do that, what with the more than 10 billion flowing into government coffers from the fines and environmentalists getting involved?  They got you to buy insurance and prove you have it didn't they?

The system is in place, you already participate in it.

[Aaron D.]

Well, I'll be curious to see how the cars perform after being reflashed and all the ranting dies down. No none here knows how it will roll out.

Glad to see anothe Piech conspiracy theorist besides me. I think this whole thing will be a fond memory in a year or so.

[rocker59]

You don't need to register your car? I thought that was the case in all 50 states. When registering a vehicle you need prove nothing?

Something like " Don't forget to provide proof of your VW Diesel recall fulfillment" wouldn't call you to action?

It wouldn't take very much to do that, what with the more than 10 billion flowing into government coffers from the fines and environmentalists getting involved?  They got you to buy insurance and prove you have it didn't they?

The system is in place, you already participate in it.

Sorry, but that will take The Federal Government compelling The States to help with compliance of a Federal issue.  Most States do not have emissions compliance enforcement.

Though some States' DMV offices (Kalifornia) may review cars' VINs for recalls and require documentation that they've been done, most (basically all) States do not.  There is no mechanism in place.  There just isn't.  And, there won't be.

Annual license plate renewals are all about collecting revenue for The States.  In my State, you renew tags at "The Revenue Office".  My State does not have annual safety inspections or emissions testing.  All they want you to do is show proof of insurance and pay your money.

Getting all The States to participate in EPA/DOT recall compliance is pure fantasy.  Well, except maybe for Kalifornia.

[canuguzzi]

The States already help with compliance issues for Federal mandates. Maybe you live in the 51st State but every other state already participates in compliance enforcement.

If what you said is true, then we should all be able to visit your state and buy those nifty non-compliant vehicles and have at it. Getting them in isn't that big of a problem, you go to Canada, buynone and drive it across the border. When you try to register it, then it becomes a problem.

Sure, some States have fewer regulations than others but to say that there is no system in place to insure compliance or that a state wouldn't fall into place on the compliance of EPA mandates just isn't reality.

There is a question if the EPA would do it but if they decided to do so, yeah, your State would fall in line too. You drive on some roads funded by at least in part by the Federal government. Should they decide to mandate you get your diesel VW fixed they could compel you, through your own States DMV to get it done and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it.

Your state already collects federal taxes for fuel sales and you pay them. If they decided to do this, it would be far easier to get it done.

[Lannis]

Sorry, but that will take The Federal Government compelling The States to help with compliance of a Federal issue.  Most States do not have emissions compliance enforcement.

Though some States' DMV offices (Kalifornia) may review cars' VINs for recalls and require documentation that they've been done, most (basically all) States do not.  There is no mechanism in place.  There just isn't.  And, there won't be.

Annual license plate renewals are all about collecting revenue for The States.  In my State, you renew tags at "The Revenue Office".  My State does not have annual safety inspections or emissions testing.  All they want you to do is show proof of insurance and pay your money.

Getting all The States to participate in EPA/DOT recall compliance is pure fantasy.  Well, except maybe for Kalifornia.

This is true in Virginia too.   Nobody is ever going to check to see if you had a "recall" done, safety or otherwise.   Your "safety inspection" sticker is just headlights and tires, and they're thinking about doing away with that.   I know that they're enforced pretty laxly.   

I can own any kind of car with any kind of "recalls" against it and no one is going to say anything.   The States are not going to take up the clubs for the Feds and do their bidding.

So someone driving a VW who doesn't hyperventilate over the "news" is never even going to know anything happened, or care ....

Lannis

[rocker59]

The States already help with compliance issues for Federal mandates. Maybe you live in the 51st State but every other state already participates in compliance enforcement.

If what you said is true, then we should all be able to visit your state and buy those nifty non-compliant vehicles and have at it. Getting them in isn't that big of a problem, you go to Canada, buynone and drive it across the border. When you try to register it, then it becomes a problem.

Sure, some States have fewer regulations than others but to say that there is no system in place to insure compliance or that a state wouldn't fall into place on the compliance of EPA mandates just isn't reality.

There is a question if the EPA would do it but if they decided to do so, yeah, your State would fall in line too. You drive on some roads funded by at least in part by the Federal government. Should they decide to mandate you get your diesel VW fixed they could compel you, through your own States DMV to get it done and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it.

Your state already collects federal taxes for fuel sales and you pay them. If they decided to do this, it would be far easier to get it done.

The DOT/EPA controls what the OEMs can sell to consumers.

The States are not required to make sure that consumers keep their cars compliant with any of the DOT/EPA mandates.

There are a few States, Counties, and Cities around The Country which do have their own compliance laws and annual inspections, which align with DOT/EPA, but that is mainly to deal with local air quality issues.

By and large, there is no State enforcement of DOT/EPA regulations of autos/motos that are in the hands of consumers.

After purchase, I could remove all emissions and safety equipment from my new car and would never be called out on it, because the car will never be inspected.

[dibble]

Bollocking Bollocks!! Just orderd a 190bhp Skoda Superb and it had better have 190bhp when it arrives.

The company I work for have 40ish Skoda Octavias and they return 50-60pg(uk) depending on where in the country the rep works, this is confirmed by fuel receipts and trackers.

Perhaps governments have asked engineers for too much.

[PJPR01]

Given that we have inspection stickers which are tied to emissions testing, I have to believe that if the "defeat software" is still in play and a car is never taken to disable the defeat mechanism, then it should pass emissions every year UNLESS somehow VW is connected to the Texas statewide testing software and it requires proof at the time one takes it to an inspection station to show the car was fixed at the dealer. 

I'm kind of hoping for a buyback in a way...even though the Passat is a decent car for commuting.

[rocker59]

...someone driving a VW who doesn't hyperventilate over the "news" is never even going to know anything happened, or care ....

Yep.  This is only an issue important to politicos, gear heads, and gear headed politicos.

The average consumer will just keep driving their car and never think a thing about it.

I love the fact that VW found a way to stick it to the man with technology mandated by the man.  Too bad they were a little too greedy, and the disparity between testing and real world was so large, or they'd have probably never been caught!

Conspiracy Theory:  All OEMs are "able to" do this with modern technology, which makes me think VW cannot be the only one.  Just the only one which has been caught!  I'd love it if some of the biggies (Honda/Toyota/Ford/GM) were investigated and proved to have also done this same scheme.

[rocker59]

Given that we have inspection stickers which are tied to emissions testing, I have to believe that if the "defeat software" is still in play and a car is never taken to disable the defeat mechanism, then it should pass emissions every year UNLESS somehow VW is connected to the Texas statewide testing software and it requires proof at the time one takes it to an inspection station to show the car was fixed at the dealer. 

I'm kind of hoping for a buyback in a way...even though the Passat is a decent car for commuting.

Some hot-rodding hacker is sure to figure out the "defeat software" parameters, and have it available to re-install, after you've been forced by the man to have your car's recall performed at the dealer !!!

LOL!

[PJPR01]

Jesus...if all the car manufacturers are doing this, and the EPA levies fines on all of them, the budget deficit will be a thing of the past!  :)

[ITSec]

Yep, if I had the TDI VW, I would be smiling.  No reflash needed, already got the best ECU map available.  Recall, no thanks.

One small problem - in states that have smog tests where the OBDII is connected, it's no work at all to put a 'fail' against that version of the software. That wouldn't even be unreasonable for the government to do, since that version of the software is admittedly fraudulent and was purposefully designed to NOT meet the standard it was claimed to. "Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go see your dealer and come back with your ECU updated before your next license renewal."

[ITSec]

Bollocking Bollocks!! Just orderd a 190bhp Skoda Superb and it had better have 190bhp when it arrives.

Given the comments by governments in Germany, France and elsewhere in the EU, I bet it won't. And the delivery is likely to be delayed.

[ITSec]

Conspiracy Theory:  All OEMs are "able to" do this with modern technology, which makes me think VW cannot be the only one.  Just the only one which has been caught!  I'd love it if some of the biggies (Honda/Toyota/Ford/GM) were investigated and proved to have also done this same scheme.

Quite possible, though they may have had a different risk vs reward calculation. VW had staked its claim to the 'clean diesel that still performs' mantle while its competitors struggled with getting performance AND low emissions, and now we know why - VW was also struggling but chose a different path. The fact that those competitors were down on performance is a good inferential evidence that they were coming a lot closer to the emissions targets.

Several people, including those in the EU governments, are already calling for an across the board evaluation - and just like computer malware, once you know what the software looks like that does this little trick, it's a lot easier to find whether it exists anywhere else.

I rather suspect that automakers are now going to have to submit their vehicle control system software for code review - what with this purposeful evasion of compliance, the FCA wireless-hackable Jeeps, and computer controlled emergency stop systems.

[canuguzzi]

Yep.  This is only an issue important to politicos, gear heads, and gear headed politicos.

The average consumer will just keep driving their car and never think a thing about it.

I love the fact that VW found a way to stick it to the man with technology mandated by the man.  Too bad they were a little too greedy, and the disparity between testing and real world was so large, or they'd have probably never been caught!

Conspiracy Theory:  All OEMs are "able to" do this with modern technology, which makes me think VW cannot be the only one.  Just the only one which has been caught!  I'd love it if some of the biggies (Honda/Toyota/Ford/GM) were investigated and proved to have also done this same scheme.

VW didn't stick it to the man, they stuck it to everyone who bought one of the affected cars. They got people to pay for their arrogance and greed.

Now watch as the man sticks it to VW. In the end , no one ever sticks it to the man.

The enemy of your enemy is not your friend, they are just a different enemy.

[rocker59]

Quite possible, though they may have had a different risk vs reward calculation. VW had staked its claim to the 'clean diesel that still performs' mantle while its competitors struggled with getting performance AND low emissions, and now we know why - VW was also struggling but chose a different path. The fact that those competitors were down on performance is a good inferential evidence that they were coming a lot closer to the emissions targets.

Several people, including those in the EU governments, are already calling for an across the board evaluation - and just like computer malware, once you know what the software looks like that does this little trick, it's a lot easier to find whether it exists anywhere else.

I rather suspect that automakers are now going to have to submit their vehicle control system software for code review - what with this purposeful evasion of compliance, the FCA wireless-hackable Jeeps, and computer controlled emergency stop systems.

I was thinking beyond diesels.  Because of the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) ratings that US automakers have to maintain for cars sold in the USA, there is plenty of motivation to have the tech geeks set something like this up.  Even a few mpg over the entire fleet can make a difference for the big OEMs.

[rss29]

I agree, don't rush to the dealer. There are 500,000 VW vehicles over 6 years affected. The EPA lists 14,000,000 light car and truck recalls for emissions for 2009-2011. That's quite a backlog. I live two hours plus from the nearest dealership. They don't send the police to your house to drag your car in for these kind of things.

-AJ

Most of the vehicles affected are late-model cars under warranty. Being VWs, they're likely going to be heading to the dealership for warranty repairs at some point. They'll reflash the car with the recall fix when it's in for service. You can't opt out of recalls when they have the car in their possession. I own one of the affected vehicles and I'm not at all happy about this whole thing. Best case scenario for me is VW offers up some sort of compensation to current owners to either trade their car on a new model or keep it and receive some sort of credit or payment.

I could care less about the emissions. I'm more concerned about the hit I'll take on resale value and/or a possible fix that reduces the already lackluster performance of the car.

[rocker59]

VW didn't stick it to the man, they stuck it to everyone who bought one of the affected cars. They got people to pay for their arrogance and greed.

Now watch as the man sticks it to VW. In the end , no one ever sticks it to the man.

The enemy of your enemy is not your friend, they are just a different enemy.

Let's see, VW stuck it to everyone who bought a TDI by giving them better than advertised fuel economy.

Yeah, what a pisser.  I'm sure they're all upset that now their cars might actually be reduced to getting the sticker MPGs.

LOL!

The Jetta Sportwagon TDI is rated at "Up to 30 city, 42 highway", but are renowned for returning better numbers.  The Sportwagen TDI that I drove a few years ago was returning 38 in town during the time I drove it.

Honestly, how upset could I be if the company was required to set the car to return rated economy, rather than exceed it, as most of the cars are reported to do ???

[rocker59]

I own one of the affected vehicles and I'm not at all happy about this whole thing. Best case scenario for me is VW offers up some sort of compensation to current owners to either trade their car on a new model or keep it and receive some sort of credit or payment.

What car do you own?  What is your observed fuel economy?  What was it rated on the window sticker?

If you are seeing better numbers than stated on the window sticker, and the warranty recall simply brings you down to sticker fuel economy, why will you be not at all happy ??

[ITSec]

What car do you own?  What is your observed fuel economy?  What was it rated on the window sticker?

If you are seeing better numbers than stated on the window sticker, and the warranty recall simply brings you down to sticker fuel economy, why will you be not at all happy ??

The real problem is that the fuel economy numbers came from the testing that was shown as compromised - and there's no guarantee that even those lower numbers will be met or even approached by VWs once they have a legal and compliant set of software installed. If they do, your point holds, though there is still the promised performance that will definitely (and admittedly, by VW) compromised - and that performance is certainly a factor in the choice of many consumers to go with VW diesels rather than gas or a competitors' product.

[blackcat]

VW didn't stick it to the man, they stuck it to everyone who bought one of the affected cars.

The Feds gave $51 million dollars in tax subsidies for these supposedly clean cars, so they actually stuck it to all of us.

[rss29]

What car do you own?  What is your observed fuel economy?  What was it rated on the window sticker?

If you are seeing better numbers than stated on the window sticker, and the warranty recall simply brings you down to sticker fuel economy, why will you be not at all happy ??

My fuel economy is great, actually. Sticker has it at 42 highway and I think you could actually get that if you drove the speed limit. I don't, however.

I have a thing for data and track fuel mileage obsessively. I have averaged 33 mpg in mixed driving over the past 12 months. I always reset the onboard computer and compare it against the actual calculations then make a note in the app I use. The car's calculation is always higher than actual, usually around 10%. I thought perhaps the car was calculating Imperial gallons, but I tested with l/100 KM and got the same results. I suspect they've padded the calculations to make owners feel better about their purchase. Seems VW engineers aren't averse to using a little creative coding.

My highest tank ever was a trip this summer when the car returned 36.4mpg in mostly freeway driving, so 80-ish mph. The onboard computer had it at 38.1 for the same trip. No complaints about the mileage- it's great.

Oh- I have an Audi A3.

[rocker59]

The real problem is that the fuel economy numbers came from the testing that was shown as compromised - and there's no guarantee that even those lower numbers will be met or even approached by VWs once they have a legal and compliant set of software installed. If they do, your point holds, though there is still the promised performance that will definitely (and admittedly, by VW) compromised - and that performance is certainly a factor in the choice of many consumers to go with VW diesels rather than gas or a competitors' product.

I'm looking at it from a different direction.  It's my understanding the testing in question is for emissions.  And that the cars are emitting more particulates and Oxides of Nitrous in the real world, than they are emitting in testing.   

So, your car that's beating the window sticker fuel economy is doing that by putting more nasties out the tailpipe than is allowed.

My understanding is that, in static testing, the engine is "turned down" to produce less emissions (and less power) to meet the claimed fuel economy ratings on the sticker.

But as we all know, this onion is still being peeled.

[jas67]

Yep, if I had the TDI VW, I would be smiling.  No reflash needed, already got the best ECU map available.  Recall, no thanks.

See reply #140.

Only in Kalifornia.

There is no system in place to enforce something like your grand scheme, in most of The Country.

YET.  Kalifornia was the only state with emissions testing, until others started doing it too.
As Kalifornia goes, so goes the other states as well.... eventually.

Sorry, but that will take The Federal Government compelling The States to help with compliance of a Federal issue.  Most States do not have emissions compliance enforcement.

Though some States' DMV offices (Kalifornia) may review cars' VINs for recalls and require documentation that they've been done, most (basically all) States do not.  There is no mechanism in place.  There just isn't.  And, there won't be.

Annual license plate renewals are all about collecting revenue for The States.  In my State, you renew tags at "The Revenue Office".  My State does not have annual safety inspections or emissions testing.  All they want you to do is show proof of insurance and pay your money.

Getting all The States to participate in EPA/DOT recall compliance is pure fantasy.  Well, except maybe for Kalifornia.

The federal gov't could mandate it by withholding highway funds from any state that doesn't comply.    That is what brought us the national 55 MPH speed limit for all those years.

Given that we have inspection stickers which are tied to emissions testing, I have to believe that if the "defeat software" is still in play and a car is never taken to disable the defeat mechanism, then it should pass emissions every year UNLESS somehow VW is connected to the Texas statewide testing software and it requires proof at the time one takes it to an inspection station to show the car was fixed at the dealer. 

I'm kind of hoping for a buyback in a way...even though the Passat is a decent car for commuting.

The "defeat software" can determine that the car is under test, whether by the EPA, or your state inspection.   This most likely is done with the ABS sensors.   If the front wheels are spinning, but, not the rests, then the car must be on a dyno -- operate in "test mode.".

[dibble]

Given the comments by governments in Germany, France and elsewhere in the EU, I bet it won't. And the delivery is likely to be delayed.

Just checked and Skoda only used this engine in older models just hope VW don't restrict Skodas supply of new engines