VW, now THAT is a major problem.

[Randown]

Other perspective. Ive seen here news that American cars are less safe then euopean cars. Every car is more poluting and consuming on the road then in testenvironment. What is new?

Google translate...

Diesel vehicles in America

Not serious? Or?

Parts which, when you think it's just silly ...

Expect the other side to use pictures of "shower" chambers.

[jas67]

It's hard to say "I can understand removing or altering emissions controls to make it perform better" but then get pissed about someone who rolls coal (which is just an extreme of the same thing).

Rolling coal is being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.

Improving fuel economy (which was also in my statement) is saving money AND fuel (read on).   I understand that motivation.

Also, I sometimes question the environmental impact of an emission control that causes MORE FUEL TO BE CONSUMED.

That means more CO (poison) and CO2 (greenhouse gas / global warming) emissions, and more indirect environmental impact due to more fuel needing to be extracted, refined and transported (all of which have environmental impact).

[jas67]

Last evening, as I was approaching the stop sign at the main road outside my neighborhood, some d00d went by in his bro-dozer and rolled-coal for about 500-feet.  I literally could not see the oncoming traffic to my right until the smoke/soot settled to the ground, so I just sat there at the stop sign shaking my head...  Waiting until I could see well enough to make my left turn...

It's enough to make you wish you has an RPG to shoot them wish.

[zedXmick]

Last evening, as I was approaching the stop sign at the main road outside my neighborhood, some d00d went by in his bro-dozer and rolled-coal for about 500-feet.  I literally could not see the oncoming traffic to my right until the smoke/soot settled to the ground, so I just sat there at the stop sign shaking my head...  Waiting until I could see well enough to make my left turn...

All the asshats that roll-coal in America should be sent to live in Beijing China for a couple of months,and get the experience of living with  polluted air.

Here is a link to the story. http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/04/asia/china-beijing-blue-sky-disappears-after-military-parade/

[Kev m]

Rolling coal is being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.

Improving fuel economy (which was also in my statement) is saving money AND fuel (read on).   I understand that motivation.

Also, I sometimes question the environmental impact of an emission control that causes MORE FUEL TO BE CONSUMED.

That means more CO (poison) and CO2 (greenhouse gas / global warming) emissions, and more indirect environmental impact due to more fuel needing to be extracted, refined and transported (all of which have environmental impact).

You can JUSTIFY IT to yourself any way you want.

But in BOTH CASES you're purposely ignoring statues that are designed for the welfare of the general public.

In both cases you are putting your desires ahead of those of everyone else.

If you don't agree with the regulations, work within the system to change them.

But look at China today, look at LA 20-30 years ago, you cannot simply hide your head in the sand and pretend there is no effect.

At the end of the day the justification "it's just one small motorcycle/car" and "I'm JUST improving ________" (mpg, performance, whatever) means nothing.

See my earlier statements about the morality/immorality of an action. If everyone did it would it help or harm? This is black and white, if everyone did it we'd be polluting the CRAP out of the only home we have.

And therefore you can't point a finger at an industry that pollutes MORE and say "well, mine is a drop in the bucket compared to them". They may be the current greater offender, but it doesn't change the base righteousness of your own offense.

To be clear, I'm not attacking you personally, but I am attacking the general attitude we see across the board by fellow motor vehicle enthusiasts who justify their anti-social behavior (be it loud pipes or engines tuned for performance and out of compliance with emissions standards). It's all the same thing, "I do it because I want to and @#%%# everyone else."

Kinda reminds me of what an intelligent Fox Anchor (Shep Smith) just said in the news about the Pope's Visit:

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/24/9387833/shep-smith-pope-francis

To paraphrase, "this isn't being political, this is not being an asshole".

[jas67]

You can JUSTIFY IT to yourself any way you want.

But in BOTH CASES you're purposely ignoring statues that are designed for the welfare of the general public.

I wasn't trying to justify it, but, just trying to understand the motivation behind it.

[jas67]

But look at China today, look at LA 20-30 years ago, you cannot simply hide your head in the sand and pretend there is no effect.

And just to be clear, I'm not hiding head in the sand.    I AM doing my part to reduce pollution.    I bought fuel efficient vehicles (rather than gas guzzling SUV's that are so popular in this country) that were also sold to me as being "clean."    I've taken many measures in my home to reduce energy consumption, and make use of renewable (9 KW of solar on my roof) and carbon neutral (wood pellet instead of fuel oil) energy.

Yes, there was some economic motivation, but, also environmental.   In all three cases, I could have gotten much better ROI with less effort through investing that money in something safe and conservative.

[rocker59]

Yeah.  I don't understand dumping raw fuel in the exhaust for the express purpose of making a black cloud of smoke and soot.

Kev, while you're correct in a black & white kind of way, rolling coal and dumping soot is on the top end of the scale of WTFs of hot-rodding.

[Lannis]

Yeah.  I don't understand dumping raw fuel in the exhaust for the express purpose of making a black cloud of smoke and soot.

Kev, while you're correct in a black & white kind of way, rolling coal and dumping soot is on the top end of the scale of WTFs of hot-rodding.

It's pretty easy to understand, and all of a piece with the jacked-up suspension, the open pipes, the fake bull-sack hanging from the trailer hitch.    All substitutes for the testicles that the driver WISHES he had, but never will.   

I see these guys all the time here at home.   A 6-foot tall huge truck pulls up, and a 98-pound l'il dude with 10 pounds of boots where all you can see is a beard, sunglasses, and a Deere hat climbs down ...

Lannis

[blackcat]

It's pretty easy to understand, and all of a piece with the jacked-up suspension, the open pipes, the fake bull-sack hanging from the trailer hitch.    All substitutes for the testicles that the driver WISHES he had, but never will.   

I see these guys all the time here at home.   A 6-foot tall huge truck pulls up, and a 98-pound l'il dude with 10 pounds of boots where all you can see is a beard, sunglasses, and a Deere hat climbs down ...

Lannis

Hard not to laugh.

[jas67]

It's pretty easy to understand, and all of a piece with the jacked-up suspension, the open pipes, the fake bull-sack hanging from the trailer hitch.    All substitutes for the testicles that the driver WISHES he had, but never will.   

I see these guys all the time here at home.   A 6-foot tall huge truck pulls up, and a 98-pound l'il dude with 10 pounds of boots where all you can see is a beard, sunglasses, and a Deere hat climbs down ...

Lannis

OMG, too funny.

It is definitely more than black and white.   If we really want to point fingers at others for being environmentally irresponsible,  we have to consider that our favorite form of entertainment/recreation involves burning fossil fuels to go, an many cases no place in particular, in other words ride for the sake of the ride.

There are definitely degrees of magnitude.

[Lannis]

OMG, too funny.

It is definitely more than black and white.   If we really want to point fingers at others for being environmentally irresponsible,  we have to consider that our favorite form of entertainment/recreation involves burning fossil fuels to go, an many cases no place in particular, in other words ride for the sake of the ride.

There are definitely degrees of magnitude.

No doubt about it.   The guys who go everywhere on their bicycles and don't own a motor vehicle have every right to hang us motorcycle riders on the same scaffold with the coal-rollers ..... But I'll let my conscience be my guide!   

Lannis

[Scott of the Sahara]

So let me get this right. VW diesel cars have been putting out up to 40x the allowable amount of nox for 7 years and no one noticed?
The owners did not notice.
Their neighbors did not notice.
The EPA did not notice.
Obviously the "health" concerns are not as great as we are lead to believe, since
no one noticed

[Kev m]

And just to be clear, I'm not hiding head in the sand.    I AM doing my part to reduce pollution.    I bought fuel efficient vehicles (rather than gas guzzling SUV's that are so popular in this country) that were also sold to me as being "clean."    I've taken many measures in my home to reduce energy consumption, and make use of renewable (9 KW of solar on my roof) and carbon neutral (wood pellet instead of fuel oil) energy.

You do have to wonder what does actually cause more pollution -

1. Stock EFI motorcycle with cat-con
2. Stock DIESEL car.
3. Stock petrol car that gets half the mileage of the diesel or bike?

I realize the answer to that will vary.

The motorcycle and even the diesel don't meet the stricter standards of the petrol car, but at least the diesel is supposed to be getting close. Of course the cycle and the diesel burn a smaller volume, so is that enough to offset the dirtier pollutants?

I don't pretend there is just one answer or that I have it.

Yeah.  I don't understand dumping raw fuel in the exhaust for the express purpose of making a black cloud of smoke and soot.

Kev, while you're correct in a black & white kind of way, rolling coal and dumping soot is on the top end of the scale of WTFs of hot-rodding.

Understood, and I do realize that at some point one has to entertain the question of extent. But really in the end, that just equals justification for going against the "greater good", no?

So let me get this right. VW diesel cars have been putting out up to 40x the allowable amount of nox for 7 years and no one noticed?
The owners did not notice.
Their neighbors did not notice.
The EPA did not notice.
Obviously the "health" concerns are not as great as we are lead to believe, since
no one noticed

Are we supposed to think that the health concerns are instant? Someone starts their VW and a neighbor dies of lung disease?

The effects of all of these things (all our internal combustion motors) are cumulative, but they add up.

Look I'm not taking a position here that we need to shut down all internal combustion motors and go back to the stone age.

I'm taking a position that we should think long and hard before we advocate circumventing the regulatory standards just so we can get MORE kicks. I'm taking a position that perhaps it's good to make more choices on the side of conservation without becoming a hemp wearing/cave dwelling luddite. There's some middle ground.

But I'm also taking the position that the asshole rolling coal or screaming with loud pipes might not be all that different morally speaking from the one ditching their EVAP systems and cat-cons while loading maps to richen up their mixtures in search of more hp. They're still selfishly pursuing whatever makes THEM happy.

[PJPR01]

I think I figured it out....

VW is responsible for GLOBAL WARMING!!  We now have proof of the missing link!!

[AJ Huff]

Because Free America!

LOL!

-AJ

[ITSec]

So let me get this right. VW diesel cars have been putting out up to 40x the allowable amount of nox for 7 years and no one noticed?
The owners did not notice.
Their neighbors did not notice.
The EPA did not notice.
Obviously the "health" concerns are not as great as we are lead to believe, since
no one noticed

NOx pollution is 'noticed' - just not how you might think. In general, it leads to increased levels of asthma, haze-style smog, and acid rain. Many of these effects are downwind of the source, unless there is a geologic bowl to encourage inversions in the atmosphere. The increase in haze pollution in major European cities has been puzzling to researchers, since the official numbers said source levels shouldn't produce that kind of increase - but they couldn't pin down where the sources were. Since Diesels are so much more popular there, this goes a ways (not fully) towards explaining the matter. In the US, diesel cars are not that popular in places like California, which is where geography and usage would otherwise allow the effect to more quickly be seen. I believe diesel auto sales make up only something like 3% of US sales - and Volkswagen has had about half of that. So even the 40 times higher number would be a subtle shift in the overall pollution issue, although a particularly nasty one right up there with high-sulphur soft coal.

[rodekyll]

Looks like VW needs someone new to call the plays through their upcoming troubles.  May I suggest Tom Brady?

[Kev m]

So the latest development is that Bosch wrote the software ostensibly for internal testing and told VW not to install it on production vehicles.

[jas67]

So the latest development is that Bosch wrote the software ostensibly for internal testing and told VW not to install it on production vehicles.

Oh, that is the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

Even if they did, VW installed it and shipped cars with it.

[Kev m]

Oh, that is the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

Even if they did, VW installed it and shipped cars with it.

I don't think it is being offered as an excuse. Well, maybe it is some sort of attempt at deflection, but I think it is just an explanation as to how it came into being. I.E. they are attempting to say it was not developed to deceive government regulators but for use during testing.

That might be true or a bold faced lie. I dunno.

But it will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

[Aaron D.]

Turns out it may not be easy to charge VW with a crime against the EPA. Seems the Clean Air act has some long forgotten concessions to automakers..

[Kev m]

Turns out it may not be easy to charge VW with a crime against the EPA. Seems the Clean Air act has some long forgotten concessions to automakers..

Do tell...

[canuguzzi]

Charge the individuals. Interesting howbtjw Germans can't charge the corporation with criminal behavior but they can go after the individuals. Maybe they know.something we don't.

[Gian4]

Latest news:
Actual footage of the VW software design team at work.  Justice dept. spokesman states this is the smoking gun they were looking for.
Gian4
http://videos.huffingtonpost.com/entertainment/the-producers-1968-deluxe-edition-dvd-clip-517603102

[Dogwalker]

Oh, that is the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

Is not an excuse.
Simply, to use on the road an experimental software intended for test use only, was less expensive than buy from Daimler the BlueTec tecnology and implement it.

When it was the time to adapt the diesels to the Euro-5, several automakers had developed patented tecnologies to do it without affecting the performances of the engines (PSA's advanced particulate filters, Fiat's Multijet II, Daimler BlueTec...) and those that didn't had to buy them from those who did.

VW, that was just switching from injector-pump to common-rail diesel engines, had not the time to develop a proprietary tecnology. So, the plan of the then CEO of VW, Wolfgang Bernhard, was to buy the Blue Tec devices from Daimler, and use them on VW cars.
Ferdinand Piech ousted Bernhard in january 2007, and VW cancelled the  BlueTec plan few days after.

But there wasn't a plan-B.

[PJPR01]

But there wasn't a plan-B.

  Plan B became known as Plan Bumpkus...company wide collusion (following orders or get fired).  Always amazed that folks will do something criminal/illegal and don't have the stones to blow the whistle on an obviously illegal process.  Now they will all claim they were just following orders...now where did we hear that last?    I love the Passat TDI, but if it turns out that mileage or performance is materially impacted, I would hope to be able to turn it in and get a refund or get some compensation for the delta...but we'll see if there are any teeth in the enforcement process.  Ultimately I think this hurts VW more for future sales and general reputation, so the knock on impact for them could be severe in terms of loss of future sales/brand impairment.  If that's the case, then perhaps they'll pay out the appropriate amount for the "gap" in value.  If they decide they're going to suffer no matter how much they pay out, then the pay outs may be limited.

Either way...I'm hoping the same technology was not used in Land Rover's new diesel options, as I have been waiting 10 years and they are just around the corner here...we'll see how those perform!

[ITSec]

Either way...I'm hoping the same technology was not used in Land Rover's new diesel options, as I have been waiting 10 years and they are just around the corner here...we'll see how those perform!

I understand the new diesel tech in Land Rovers came from their new owners - after all, Tata has been building diesels for generations now, and just look at their high tech! 

[PJPR01]

Well...did Tata really help develop the diesel or was it Solihull born?  I'm still trying to ferret that out...but I hear you!   

Save the Tata's! :)

[canuguzzi]

The EPA could always issue a waiver for the existing owners and use that as a justification to soak some more billions in fines that could be ongoing ala carbon credits.

In other words, the US could refuse the import of any VW vehicles getting less than a certain EPA rating to offset the models currently in possession while at the same time extracting some payments until all the emission overages are offset.

That would be both punishment and a revenue collection. VW would have to weigh the cost/benefit to accepting that or just take back all the vehicles and offer new as compensation.

Another route would be to require the Germans to accept a higher ratio of our car exports to their country, something the US auto makers would cry with joy for.

Creative skinning of the cat will no doubt be part if all this.