Author Topic: VW, now THAT is a major problem.  (Read 127071 times)

Offline Unkept

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #390 on: October 06, 2015, 08:02:43 PM »
All TDIs may be produced in Germany.  It's only the generic run-of-the-mill stuff that's made in Mexico.

My 06 TDI was made in Mexico, but the engine/transmission were from Germany...

My understanding was the sedans for North America were Tennessee or Mexico, and some of the smaller hatchbacks Germany...

From what I've heard the quality is similar for all factories, as they use the same robotic equipment/build process. *shrug*.

The Mexico, US, and German built 09+ TDi four cylinders all have the TDI cheat though ;).

I passed by the factory a couple times in Wolfsburg while were were in Germany a few weeks ago. Small world.

-Joe
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 08:03:16 PM by Unkept »

Offline tris

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #391 on: October 07, 2015, 01:49:07 AM »
Well VW have to 'fess up today as to how they're planning to fix the mess they created.

I finally heard an acknowledgement that whilst they definitely are in breech of the US regulations they might not be for Euro 5 which is what my EA189 engine is supposed to comply with

It might be a simple as removing the code from my car but nothing else as its not need for compliance

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Offline fossil

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #392 on: October 07, 2015, 05:00:37 AM »
When you don�t add Urea fluid and the tank is empty the engine will not run.

One of my best friends in my flying club is head of department at VW Diesel engine pre-development. Well, he was, for some years now he made the new small petrol engines. On monday it was his turn to be questioned. I am really interested how this went...

Anyway, he is a good guy, and I know he was (and is) full of anger about managers and businessmen. I begin to realise why this is so.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 05:01:25 AM by fossil »
Greetings from Germany!
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Offline jas67

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #393 on: October 07, 2015, 05:39:41 AM »
The recall is to begin in January.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-volkswagen-emissions-mueller-idUSKCN0S02XH20151007


There is also going to be a going to be major layoffs:
"He said VW would have to become smaller and less centralized, "

I'm glad I don't work for VW.   I do, however work in the "Transportation Solutions" division of the company I work for.   VW is a HUGE customer for our European arm.    This will likely have some effect on us.    :sad:
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Offline Peter from Sch'dy

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #394 on: October 07, 2015, 06:18:51 AM »
The recall is to begin in January.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-volkswagen-emissions-mueller-idUSKCN0S02XH20151007


There is also going to be a going to be major layoffs:
"He said VW would have to become smaller and less centralized, "

I'm glad I don't work for VW.   I do, however work in the "Transportation Solutions" division of the company I work for.   VW is a HUGE customer for our European arm.    This will likely have some effect on us.    :sad:

Sorry to hear this. Collateral damage to related industries/businesses will be difficult as #1 automaker "resizes". Interesting situation that it's contract season as well.   

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Peter

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #395 on: October 07, 2015, 10:17:39 AM »
From the EPA website, the answer to this question is below: "Will I be required to have my vehicle repaired once it is recalled?"

"That depends. Some states require proof that emissions recalls have been performed prior to issuing the vehicle registration. Even in states that do not have this requirement, it is important to have emissions recalls performed because without the repairs, your vehicle may be emitting harmful pollutants in excess of the federal emission standards. You are not responsible for repair costs related to an emissions recall."

NC does not require proof of emissions recalls being performed for yearly inspections.  The wife's car is an '09 Jetta TDI and we both very much like the way the car runs.  It's been a good one and gets 45.2 mpg with her driving it.  I'm going to take it to the VW dealer in Winston-Salem next week for a coolant flush. It's a troublesome procedure on that car as there's frequently air trapped in the system after.  VW apparently uses a vacuum purging tool for it. I don't want to fool with it.  I'm going to put some aviation shear wire through two holes on each side of the diagnostic connector to make sure they don't try to load new software.  And explain to them in no uncertain terms that it's_only_there for the coolant flush. After Jan. 1, '16 when the recalls start, I would imagine any VW dealer would be required by the company to do the recall on any diesel brought in for service.

Offline rss29

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #396 on: October 07, 2015, 10:43:25 AM »
From the EPA website, the answer to this question is below: "Will I be required to have my vehicle repaired once it is recalled?"

"That depends. Some states require proof that emissions recalls have been performed prior to issuing the vehicle registration. Even in states that do not have this requirement, it is important to have emissions recalls performed because without the repairs, your vehicle may be emitting harmful pollutants in excess of the federal emission standards. You are not responsible for repair costs related to an emissions recall."

NC does not require proof of emissions recalls being performed for yearly inspections.  The wife's car is an '09 Jetta TDI and we both very much like the way the car runs.  It's been a good one and gets 45.2 mpg with her driving it.  I'm going to take it to the VW dealer in Winston-Salem next week for a coolant flush. It's a troublesome procedure on that car as there's frequently air trapped in the system after.  VW apparently uses a vacuum purging tool for it. I don't want to fool with it.  I'm going to put some aviation shear wire through two holes on each side of the diagnostic connector to make sure they don't try to load new software.  And explain to them in no uncertain terms that it's_only_there for the coolant flush. After Jan. 1, '16 when the recalls start, I would imagine any VW dealer would be required by the company to do the recall on any diesel brought in for service.
You should be OK since the details of the recall have not yet been released. I wouldn't bother tampering with the OBD port. If there were an active recall they would just do it. You don't have the option to opt out and your authorization isn't required on any recall related repairs.

There was a recall a while ago about the particulate filter, which in retrospect looks like an attempt to curtail the shitstorm that just happened. I think they increased the timing of the fuel dumps to the filter, but sounds like it didn't correct the issue. I unknowingly had it done and haven't noticed any impact on performance or fuel economy. They also increased the warranty coverage on the particulate filter as well, as they seemingly have a finite lifespan directly related to how frequently it is purged.

56Pan

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #397 on: October 07, 2015, 02:52:58 PM »
You should be OK since the details of the recall have not yet been released. I wouldn't bother tampering with the OBD port. If there were an active recall they would just do it. You don't have the option to opt out and your authorization isn't required on any recall related repairs.

There was a recall a while ago about the particulate filter, which in retrospect looks like an attempt to curtail the shitstorm that just happened. I think they increased the timing of the fuel dumps to the filter, but sounds like it didn't correct the issue. I unknowingly had it done and haven't noticed any impact on performance or fuel economy. They also increased the warranty coverage on the particulate filter as well, as they seemingly have a finite lifespan directly related to how frequently it is purged.

I have nothing but good to say about this dealer in Winston-Salem.  I was getting a code for the exhaust backpressure valve, and had the letter I'd received from VW on that component for the dealer.  Turns out the particulate filter housing was cracked and losing pressure during egr flow.  They took 3 days to replace it and gave me a new loaner Jetta to drive.  Didn't charge me a dime but it was an emissions component.  My DPF regen. cycles are no more frequent after that work, so maybe they didn't they didn't do the recall you mentioned when it was there.  Anyhow, if they insist on any software updates when I take it in, I'll just come on back home.  Do the flush myself.  6 yrs. old and overdue for it.

Offline rodekyll

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #398 on: October 07, 2015, 04:44:13 PM »
I'm just guessing, but I think the states will be altering their test requirements to take this cheat into account.  In other words, they might require VW's (and possibly other diesels) to be presented for special EPA screening.

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #399 on: October 07, 2015, 10:58:04 PM »
I'm hoping you're not right, Rodekyll.

Offline ITSec

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #400 on: October 08, 2015, 01:22:25 PM »
In his testimony before Congress yesterday, VW USA head Michael Horn made a few interesting statements beyond the mandatory mea culpas...

"Horn said the company does not yet have an approved recall plan for cars that have the defeat device, and that any fix for customers could take "one or two years" to carry out. Each of the nearly half million cars will require five hours to 10 hours of work, a potentially significant burden on dealers." (Thomson Reuters, see http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-s-u-s-ceo-michael-horn-says-there-s-no-quick-emissions-fix-1.3262100)

One or two years? Five to ten hours of work per car? What once looked like removal of software to re-enable the proper operation of existing equipment now looks like it was the other way around. The real situation appears to be that the software was designed to make a fully NON-compliant engine temporarily act like a compliant one. That means that 500,000 US cars x 10 hours x $75/hr (paid to dealers) = $375 million in labor alone for the recall. Add in major mechanical changes, fines from the feds and some states, lawsuits of various flavors, and it gets real exciting.

Also, there were some thoughts that the diesels may have met less stringent Euro standards even if they were affected by this - that seems less likely if the problem was a lack of equipment altogether...
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Offline Mark West

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #401 on: October 08, 2015, 01:48:42 PM »
In his testimony before Congress yesterday, VW USA head Michael Horn made a few interesting statements beyond the mandatory mea culpas...

"Horn said the company does not yet have an approved recall plan for cars that have the defeat device, and that any fix for customers could take "one or two years" to carry out. Each of the nearly half million cars will require five hours to 10 hours of work, a potentially significant burden on dealers." (Thomson Reuters, see http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-s-u-s-ceo-michael-horn-says-there-s-no-quick-emissions-fix-1.3262100)

One or two years? Five to ten hours of work per car? What once looked like removal of software to re-enable the proper operation of existing equipment now looks like it was the other way around. The real situation appears to be that the software was designed to make a fully NON-compliant engine temporarily act like a compliant one. That means that 500,000 US cars x 10 hours x $75/hr (paid to dealers) = $375 million in labor alone for the recall. Add in major mechanical changes, fines from the feds and some states, lawsuits of various flavors, and it gets real exciting.

Also, there were some thoughts that the diesels may have met less stringent Euro standards even if they were affected by this - that seems less likely if the problem was a lack of equipment altogether...

The actual recall costs will likely be a fraction of the total cost. VW already put aside $7 billion and who knows whether that will cover it all. Just the lost sales while not selling the effected vehicles is pretty staggering. Law suits, fines, cost of layoffs and plant closures, and on and on.

I'm wondering if they will be able to come up with a fix that doesn't negatively impact mileage and/or performance. You would think if they could, they would have done it sometime in the 7+ years they've been cheating.

I don't think VW is going to collapse but I think they're going to be a lot smaller for the next decade or more.
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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #402 on: October 08, 2015, 01:59:23 PM »
Someone(s) risked a huge company's reputation, the livelihood of many employees, the financial well being of shareholders, the perception of a people in the eyes of some and the continued freedom of some for nothing but greed and arrogance.

They should the thankful it wasn't in China of Japan, executions and suicides would be forthcoming.

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #403 on: October 08, 2015, 02:24:57 PM »
And Jay has received the first of his notices on the matter:

« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 02:39:26 PM by Kev m »
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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #404 on: October 08, 2015, 02:31:19 PM »
The EPA sold customers down the river. They should have declared the affected vehicles illegal to operate and then make VW responsible to put the owners in new vehicles or comparable vehicles, then deal with the legalities of the violation.

With the declaration making them legal to drive that could limit liability to customers since VW can claim no harm to individuals.

Offline rodekyll

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #405 on: October 08, 2015, 03:08:44 PM »
I still think the solution is for VW to hire Tom Brady.  He'll get the proceedings delayed until all the cheater diesels are retired and then have the EPA apologize to VW and compensate them for the inconvenience.

Offline PJPR01

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #406 on: October 08, 2015, 03:58:31 PM »
I still think the solution is for VW to hire Tom Brady.  He'll get the proceedings delayed until all the cheater diesels are retired and then have the EPA apologize to VW and compensate them for the inconvenience.
  Excellent analogy!  :)  Who would play the part of Gisele in this VW soap opera then?
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Offline HDGoose

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #407 on: October 08, 2015, 06:08:44 PM »
Waiting for the corporation to go to jail since they have 'rights'.

Offline rodekyll

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #408 on: October 08, 2015, 06:14:10 PM »
They have 'rights'.  What we're waiting for is to see if they have any 'responsibilities' for the 'exercise' of those 'rights'.  Making them fix the problem instead of laming out with ONLY fines/jail/carbon credits will go a long way toward re-enforcing the responsibility part.

Offline mgmark

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #409 on: October 08, 2015, 09:33:01 PM »
In his testimony before Congress yesterday, VW USA head Michael Horn made a few interesting statements beyond the mandatory mea culpas...

"Horn said the company does not yet have an approved recall plan for cars that have the defeat device, and that any fix for customers could take "one or two years" to carry out. Each of the nearly half million cars will require five hours to 10 hours of work, a potentially significant burden on dealers." (Thomson Reuters, see http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-s-u-s-ceo-michael-horn-says-there-s-no-quick-emissions-fix-1.3262100)

This was taken out of context. There are three different generations of diesel and each require a different repair to make compliant. The present cars only need a software fix. The cars the 10 hours was referring to are the early cars without the urea system or DPF filters in the exhaust. VW should just buy back those early cars and not have to engineer complete emission systems to retro fit them.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 05:35:34 AM by mgmark »
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Offline jas67

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #410 on: October 09, 2015, 05:06:34 AM »
This was taken out of context. There are three different generations of diesel and each require a different repair to make compliant. The present cars only need a software fix. The early cars the 10 hours was referring to are the early cars without the urea system or DPF filters in the exhaust. VW should just buy back those early cars and not have to engineer complete emission systems to retro fit them.

All of the cars in question are equipped with DPF.    All TDI's importing since 2009 have them.    There were no TDI's imported in 2007-2008.    2006 and earlier don't have DPF, and are not part of the recall.

If the cars could pass the test in "test mode", which is only software, I'd be surprised to see a solution other than forcing the cars to run in that mode all the time; unless, of course, drive-ability and fuel economy suffer so much that they know they'll get their asses sued off?

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #411 on: October 09, 2015, 05:27:38 AM »
Ten hours of labor is obviously not justa software fix...
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Offline jas67

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #412 on: October 09, 2015, 06:56:06 AM »
Ten hours of labor is obviously not justa software fix...

Yeah, I know that.   

Both our cars will be out of warranty before this is over.   They better warranty any problems caused to the retrofit for a long time.

I just so disgusted with the whole thing.   Even thought it won't happen, I'd love if they just bought them back from us for pre-scandal market value, so I could just buy different cars.    I want nothing to do with this whole fiasco.    There is absolutely no upside for the current owners.   Resale value is going to suffer big time.    Fuel economy, performance, and maybe even longevity are all going to take a hit.   

It makes with I had my old (now 15 year old) BMW back.

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Offline tris

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #413 on: October 09, 2015, 07:01:26 AM »
Ten hours of labor is obviously not justa software fix...

Correct

The info I'm picking up over here from Skoda refers to "hardware" fixes - whatever that turns out to be!

Still my Octavia blew a boy racer in a Mini into the dust from the lights today. I decided I might as well enjoy it until they cut its throat  :sad:
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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #414 on: October 09, 2015, 07:07:13 AM »
Still my Octavia blew a boy racer in a Mini into the dust from the lights today. I decided I might as well enjoy it until they cut its throat  :sad:

I'm thinking the boy racer in the Mini wasn't in a turbo model...  :wink:
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Offline HDGoose

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #415 on: October 09, 2015, 08:29:32 AM »
Aren't the TDIs made in Tennessee?

Offline tris

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #416 on: October 09, 2015, 08:47:08 AM »
I'm thinking the boy racer in the Mini wasn't in a turbo model...  :wink:

Of course he was ...... or at least I hope he was or you have just burst my bubble  :cry:
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Offline jas67

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #417 on: October 09, 2015, 08:53:27 AM »
Aren't the TDIs made in Tennessee?

My 2012 TDI Jetta Sport Wagon was made in Mexico
My 2013 TDI Golf was made in Germany

The Passat, starting with the current larger car (2012?) is made in Tennessee.

IIRC, Tiguans for the North American market might also be made there.
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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #418 on: October 09, 2015, 09:19:54 AM »
Of course he was ...... or at least I hope he was or you have just burst my bubble  :cry:

How about you and I just pretend he was, I don't wanna really hurt your bubble.  :kiss: :wink:
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Offline Gian4

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #419 on: October 09, 2015, 10:35:14 AM »
Does anyone on this board really feel that the world would be a better place if we drive VW out of business with mega fines and law suits?  I'm not saying that the company did no wrong and should not be punished but I feel some perspective is being lost in a feeding frenzy.  Yes owners should be made as whole as possible.  Yes dealers issues should be mitigated.  Yes those at VW corporate who are responsible should be fired and legally dealt with.  Yes civil fines should send a message but not destroy the company.  No to class action law suits that only make lawyers rich.  I mean with the damage done to John Q public by big tobacco,the 2008 fiscal melt down,asbestos, general motors ignition switches and well you name it,this is just a small blip on the cosmic radar.  I'm just saying.  The destruction of VW would be a major net negative.
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