VW, now THAT is a major problem.

[jas67]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY&feature=youtu.be

[Kev m]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY&feature=youtu.be

YUP, just as I thought. Doesn't mean much at top end, but means something in the more used midrange.

[oldbike54]

 Wonder if the EPA has ever tested most HDs, or at least the way most are set up AFTER the sale ? Yeah , VW is awful , horrible , the most evil entity ever to come out of Europe , but we seem to have lost sight of the fact that this type of of behavior is somehow acceptable at an individual level . I still say we wait and see what happens before summarily executing VW .

  Dusty

[Kev m]

Wonder if the EPA has ever tested most HDs, or at least the way most are set up AFTER the sale ? Yeah , VW is awful , horrible , the most evil entity ever to come out of Europe , but we seem to have lost sight of the fact that this type of of behavior is somehow acceptable at an individual level . I still say we wait and see what happens before summarily executing VW .

  Dusty

I've never argued it was acceptable on an individual basis.

But there is a very different impact on order of magnitude from an individual to 11M vehicles in one fell swoop.

[oldbike54]

I've never argued it was acceptable on an individual basis.

But there is a very different impact on order of magnitude from an individual to 11M vehicles in one fell swoop.

 True , but how many cars and motorcycles have had their emission systems removed or modified in the quest for a couple of HP or simply because the owners want to thumb their nose at authority or the environment ?

  Dusty

[Kev m]

True , but how many cars and motorcycles have had their emission systems removed or modified in the quest for a couple of HP or simply because the owners want to thumb their nose at authority or the environment ?

  Dusty

I'm gonna eager a guess at fewer than 11,000,000 in just the past 5-6 years. 

[LowRyter]

I got a kick out of this.

I am Honda Accord owner and check on a Honda forum.  This was an interesting post:

What a contrast... Honda vs VW
My wife and I have owned Honda products continuously since 1979. Often two in the garage at once. She now has a '15 Accord. Three years ago I was lured to VW because I have lusted for a diesel, and the accompanying 40+ MPG.

On this site, folks write about their Hondas in terms of floor mats, oil break-in, mileage between models, aftermarket parts, etc. and the occasional maintenance issue, usually minor in scope.

Meanwhile on the VW TDi site you hear about turbine icing and frequent turbine failure, high pressure fuel pump failure (a $7,000 fix out of warranty) panoramic sun roof binding ($2,000'to fix). An aluminum oil pan prone to puncture from road debris, a soot collection device that requires replacing at some point north of 100k miles, assuming it doesn't split apart first ($2,700). And on and on. Almost forgot about the oil and duel clutch transmission service every 40k miles ($650).

And now, the EPA scandal that threatens to bring down VW and neuter my Sportwagens legendary performance and mileage thanks to pending recall "fixes".

I've been lucky to have no problems with my VW so far, but I'm on borrowed time. Love driving the VW, but now hoping the company (VW) somehow makes us whole resale value wise. Then it's off to the local Honda store for a '16 Pilot.

[Peter from Sch'dy]

I got a kick out of this.

I am Honda Accord owner and check on a Honda forum.  This was an interesting post:

What a contrast... Honda vs VW
My wife and I have owned Honda products continuously since 1979. Often two in the garage at once. She now has a '15 Accord. Three years ago I was lured to VW because I have lusted for a diesel, and the accompanying 40+ MPG.

On this site, folks write about their Hondas in terms of floor mats, oil break-in, mileage between models, aftermarket parts, etc. and the occasional maintenance issue, usually minor in scope.

Meanwhile on the VW TDi site you hear about turbine icing and frequent turbine failure, high pressure fuel pump failure (a $7,000 fix out of warranty) panoramic sun roof binding ($2,000'to fix). An aluminum oil pan prone to puncture from road debris, a soot collection device that requires replacing at some point north of 100k miles, assuming it doesn't split apart first ($2,700). And on and on. Almost forgot about the oil and duel clutch transmission service every 40k miles ($650).

And now, the EPA scandal that threatens to bring down VW and neuter my Sportwagens legendary performance and mileage thanks to pending recall "fixes".

I've been lucky to have no problems with my VW so far, but I'm on borrowed time. Love driving the VW, but now hoping the company (VW) somehow makes us whole resale value wise. Then it's off to the local Honda store for a '16 Pilot.

I recall Honda being caught cheating on the mileage their odometers recorded. Interesting the lack of outrage even though the result of the "crime" was similar.
Best,
Peter

[Kev m]

I got a kick out of this.

I am Honda Accord owner and check on a Honda forum.  This was an interesting post:

What a contrast... Honda vs VW
My wife and I have owned Honda products continuously since 1979. Often two in the garage at once. She now has a '15 Accord. Three years ago I was lured to VW because I have lusted for a diesel, and the accompanying 40+ MPG.

<snip>

I've been lucky to have no problems with my VW so far, but I'm on borrowed time. Love driving the VW, but now hoping the company (VW) somehow makes us whole resale value wise. Then it's off to the local Honda store for a '16 Pilot.

I wonder what he's going to think about that 18/26 mpg on the Pilot?

And it's a good thing he's thinking 2016, cause up to 2015 it was 17/24.

[canuguzzi]

I wonder what he's going to think about that 18/26 mpg on the Pilot?

And it's a good thing he's thinking 2016, cause up to 2015 it was 17/24.

I'd think someone buying an SUV knows the fuel economy isn't the same as a Diesel VW.  Their statement shows other concerns but buying an SUV for mileage wasn't one of them.

[canuguzzi]

The VW problem does seem to be bleeding over quite a bit though. It isn't something you'll generally read about or see/hear on TV, it is the shock and disgust of many in Germany and Germans everywhere. The feeling of a betrayal and being appauled that VW, a mark of excellence embedded in the country cheated to make a more money. It didn't need to do it.

[Kev m]

I'd think someone buying an SUV knows the fuel economy isn't the same as a Diesel VW.  Their statement shows other concerns but buying an SUV for mileage wasn't one of them.

Ya think? 

Still, he was wooed by the diesel kool-aide, can't believe he's not going to have some sticker shock going to a vehicle with less than half the mpg.

[LowRyter]

The point of that post when comparing the VW to Honda was the cost of ownership with all high dollar repairs. I had a buddy that bought Diesel Jetta in the mid 2000s and he found that $500+ failures happened and repeated with such regularity that he'd never own another.  He's a tightwad and purchases Corollas now.

We've been up and down the high cost of maintaining German cars on this forum.  Some think the driving experience is worth the trade off. 

But the contrast to Honda is striking.  On the Honda forums posts are irate over a rattle (disclosure: I took my new Honda back TWICE for rattles, the dealer gave me credit for three free oil changes for my trouble), the radio sound quality, interior dress up kits, road noise, pissing about 27 mpg in town gas mileage, changing the cabin filter, dealer charges for oil change & filters, whether you can skip a shift with a manual transmission, etc.   Once in awhile someone will have a legitimate repair question, unfortunately, the forum is mostly clueless when that happens.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Once in awhile someone will have a legitimate repair question, unfortunately, the forum is mostly clueless when that happens.

That's the way it was on the MINI forum. Buncha take it to the dealer people.. not that there's anything wrong with that.. but in general very few gearheads. At six years, when the legendary German engineering started to rear it's ugly head, it was gone out of my garage. Sensors started failing. All freaking day to change out a thermostat gasket? I hate working on cars, but I certainly wasn't going to get shook down by BMW.
Loved driving the car, though.

[canuguzzi]

Some cars, like bikes come with a near requirement that you wrench even if it shouldn't or doesn't need to be that way.

The jokes that you buy a BMW knowing that it gets sold just before the warranty runs out sum it up. While a comparable Lexus might be as good when people drive the BMW they can tell the difference and know the BMW just drives better. Then when buttons stop working, tabs break off and adjustments never get it right anymore the live fades and its time for a new one. Meanwhile the Lexus goes onto a new owner who drives it for another 150,000 miles with little more than oil and filter changes and maybe a timing belt.

Don't hear too many people say they buy VWs because of their reliability.

Here in the US though, we demand cars go 100,000 miles without too much hassle. But most of us really don't drive, we sit in the car and text, tweet have coffee klatches and turn the wheel and brake once in a while to avoid being killed. Those who really drive though, often pick something else and that is where BMW, VW and the other makers come in.

[Kev m]

That's the way it was on the MINI forum. Buncha take it to the dealer people.. not that there's anything wrong with that.. but in general very few gearheads. At six years, when the legendary German engineering started to rear it's ugly head, it was gone out of my garage. Sensors started failing. All freaking day to change out a thermostat gasket? I hate working on cars, but I certainly wasn't going to get shook down by BMW.
Loved driving the car, though.

I don't drink the Honda Kool-aide either. I've seen far too many of them broken as well.

That said, I do wonder if the difference in the forums can also be contributed to the differences in the buyers of a Honda vs. a VW.

I see it even in the difference between the people who post in the WK2 (Grand Cherokee) Jeep Sub-Forum and those who post in the JK/JKU (Wrangler) Sub-Forum. The former are mostly only talking about their MPG, SAT-NAV, Leather or Air Suspension, how to program a key fob and maybe an occasional oil change or tire thread, while the later is talking about lifts, bumpers, gearing changes, big tires, and once in a while mpg or maybe adding a factory NAV to something that didn't have it.

So how many on the Honda forum just don't post about problems and simply bring it to the dealer and fix it?

I'd be curious, but I don't really care, because I'm going to pick a VW over a Honda IF I THINK THE VW will be more fun anyway. Just like I've picked a Guzzi or a Ducati, or even a Harley over a Honda time and again.

[canuguzzi]

For some people, fixing, accessorizing or modifying a vehicle is fun or they accept it as part of owning a particular brand.

There are things in some brands or models people will accept that those same people would never tolerate in another. It's those other brands that fix those things and go onto dominate their markets while the others garner a loyal but smaller customer base.

Its a strange phenomenon where accepting certain problems is a sort of rite of passage into a select group. Like the oil weep drip on certain years of 3 series BMWs. They all do that is what you'll hear. They all do that and no one bothers to fix the problem?  Yes, its the way it is and part of owning one and not doing to means you really aren't the quality of owner needed, at least according to forums which represent nearly next to no one.

[LowRyter]

I don't drink the Honda Kool-aide either. I've seen far too many of them broken as well.

That said, I do wonder if the difference in the forums can also be contributed to the differences in the buyers of a Honda vs. a VW.

I see it even in the difference between the people who post in the WK2 (Grand Cherokee) Jeep Sub-Forum and those who post in the JK/JKU (Wrangler) Sub-Forum. The former are mostly only talking about their MPG, SAT-NAV, Leather or Air Suspension, how to program a key fob and maybe an occasional oil change or tire thread, while the later is talking about lifts, bumpers, gearing changes, big tires, and once in a while mpg or maybe adding a factory NAV to something that didn't have it.

So how many on the Honda forum just don't post about problems and simply bring it to the dealer and fix it?

I'd be curious, but I don't really care, because I'm going to pick a VW over a Honda IF I THINK THE VW will be more fun anyway. Just like I've picked a Guzzi or a Ducati, or even a Harley over a Honda time and again.

So how many on forum don't post problems?  AS I SAID there's lots of complaining about rattles, stereo sound quality, gas mileage under 27 mpg, I might add driving in snow, wiper blades, head room, DOOR DINGS and BUMPER REPAIRS are big source of concern. 

In fact, on p 1 there are 31 threads and other than the sticky for service bulletins, there's not a serious expensive repair issue listed.  I haven't read the sticky in sometime, so I don't even know if there's much there.

the point I was making being familiar to the Honda forum is that the problems with the car are so rare and that no one has any experience to address it.  There a very few repair trends reported.  The folks on the forum generally know very little about mechanics and sometimes whine to the dealers about miniscule problems.

I've owned a VW as well as 3 Hondas and there is absolutely no comparison with reliability and costs & frequency of maintenance.  I do like the VW driving experience but the Honda is pretty nice too.  Honda is just about the only Asian car company that makes a manual transmission in a Sedan.

No need to drink the koolaid when you have your lyin' eyes.

Now I'd better knock wood that my new one will be a good one.

[canuguzzi]

the point I was making being familiar to the Honda forum is that the problems with the car are so rare and that no one has any experience to address it.  There a very few repair trends reported.  The folks on the forum generally know very little about mechanics and sometimes whine to the dealers about miniscule problems.

Honda fixes things reported that hint at being systemic. While nothing is perfect, it is rare to see problem continue year after year. Buyers won't stand for it and if you are going to sell a lot of stuff, it can't be problem plagued.

If Honda makes those 3 wheelers watch what happens. A few problem and then by the third year, you can buy one and just run it.

[Kentktk]

My brother is the service manager for a Audi/VW/Porsche dealer. He is a fan of German cars, but he`s not under any illusion and his advice is once the warranties out, it`s time to ship the car out.

[jas67]

A coworker just bought a new Jetta with the 1.8L turbo gas motor.     It is EPA rated for 37 MPG highway.    He got 40 MPG (calculated from fills) coming back from Barbers.     Hmmm, wonder if VW cheated the emissions on that too 

That motor wasn't available when we bought our TDI's.    The only gas motor available was the 2.5L 5-cylinder non-turbo dog.    It is rated 31 highway/21 city.   

The current 1.8L at 37 MPG is about the same cost to fuel per mile as my 42 MPG TDI's are.   If the 1.8L gas motor was an option when we bought, we'd have gotten that one, and perhaps not be in this mess.

Just for grins, I emailed our dealer to see what kind of trade-in we can get on our 2012 TDI wagon against a new one with the 1.8L turbo.

[canuguzzi]

Getting worse for VW, now involves their 6 cylinder engines as well including those put into Porsche's and Audi's. Before, it was only their 4 cly  economy engines.

The gift that keeps giving.

[ITSec]

Getting worse for VW, now involves their 6 cylinder engines as well including those put into Porsche's and Audi's. Before, it was only their 4 cly  economy engines.

The gift that keeps giving.

Who would buy a Porsche SUV with a diesel motor? For that matter, who would buy a Porsche that was really just a rebadged SUV from VW?

True Porsches have 2 seats, might have another couple suitable for torturing children, have an engine somewhere behind the driver, and (if you're a purist) put the same fine edge on technology that Ferraris do on brute force.

[Penderic]

They should provide you with a loaner while your car is in getting the fix.

 

[ITSec]

They should provide you with a loaner while your car is in getting the fix.

 

Was a variable pitch prop available as an option that year?

[pikipiki]

As this still seems a hot topic:

Thought this was an interesting explanation:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkpoL-aQbdI

[Kev m]

No need to drink the koolaid when you have your lyin' eyes.

Yeah, but whose eyes are doing the lyin?

You forget how long I've worked in the industry.

Hondas break just like everything else.

[ITSec]

Yeah, but whose eyes are doing the lyin?

You forget how long I've worked in the industry.

Hondas break just like everything else.

Back in 1982, a buddy of mine and I both just got our first really good paying jobs, and each of us decided to buy a new car that cost about $10,000 (CDN). He bought a Honda Civic (at the time considered a very reliable small car) and I bought a Fiat X1/9. Seven years later, we both ended up selling those cars. Mine had about 85,000 miles on it, his not many different, so we tallied up what our respective costs per mile had been. The resale value wasn't even all that different, though Fiat's withdrawal from the NA market did hurt me a bit.

Turned out the Fiat, for all its awful reputation, was the less expensive car  (It was the later 1500 fuel injected model, though).

Reputation and individual experience may be the same for some, but can only be taken as an indicator - not a promise.

[canuguzzi]

VW hit by another recall. Seems the damage isn't over yet. Now brake assist problems. Someone fell asleep at the wheel. Can't blame a small group of engineers this time.

[blackcat]

Hondas break just like everything else.

Yeah, my brother in law was eating up brake pads on his 07? Honda Accord like every 10,000 miles or something crazy like that and evidently there were a lot of other people having the same problem. I forgot what the repair was but Honda fixed it and then he moved on to another Honda.