VW, now THAT is a major problem.

[Nic in Western NYS]

True , but how many cars and motorcycles have had their emission systems removed or modified in the quest for a couple of HP or simply because the owners want to thumb their nose at authority or the environment ?

  Dusty

Truth.  Anyone modifying a bike without measuring and considering the environmental impact of the mod is doing on an individual level what VW did on a corporate level.  A key difference is that VW did it surreptitiously so that buyers did not know what they were signing up for.  Big difference.  But if you're all in an uproar about what VW did, don't whine if you move to a state (likely north of the Mason Dixon line) that gives a damn about air pollution and fines your smelly MG tailpipe for polluting a common resource (the atmosphere).  Also, I wonder why Greenpeace or some other ballsy environmental outfit hasn't started a campaign to put sugar in the fuel tanks of all obviously polluting vehicles.  One free flowing F250 with black particulates belching all over the place has to out as much pollution I would guess as about 100 of those criminally modified VWs.  Not suggestin., just sayin'..

[Lannis]

Also, I wonder why Greenpeace or some other ballsy environmental outfit hasn't started a campaign to put sugar in the fuel tanks of all obviously polluting vehicles. 

Probably because they may be ballsy, but they're not suicidal ..... 

Lannis

[LaMojo]

Was a variable pitch prop available as an option that year?

Probably not very efficient with the prop on backwards. 

[Nic in Western NYS]

Probably because they may be ballsy, but they're not suicidal ..... 

Lannis

Looked into it a bit, could be that sugar in the gas doesn't do much harm anyway (except making the owner go wild with rage).  http://www.snopes.com/autos/grace/sugar.asp

[steven c]

 What about Subaru's oil burning issues( I have a 12 forester which does)? I'm thinking it could lead to early failure to the cat. I wondered why the EPA hasen't gotten involved

[Kev m]

What about Subaru's oil burning issues( I have a 12 forester which does)? I'm thinking it could lead to early failure to the cat. I wondered why the EPA hasen't gotten involved

That's completely different.

1. The cars are making the proper emissions standards.

2. If they don't (because of a damaged cat) there is an emissions warranty (normally longer than the base warranty) to cover it.

[lee swanger]

There is something very inconsistent in the stories so far.  Claims that if the emissions were set properly then the cars would start getting worse mileage than they do now.  I've got a 2014 TDI SE Passat and over 5000 miles since I bought it back in January, I am averaging 40 mpg...mostly highway, a little bit of city mixed in.  I find it hard to believe how if this vehicle is polluting MORE than it should, meaning theoretically I am consuming MORE diesel, why my mileage would get WORSE instead of better.  Something doesn't quite seem correct, unless it's not the consumption of diesel, but some other setting.

A few possible outcomes: 

The extent of the "cheating" is not material and VW fixes whatever is tweaked
or
There is a  recall or some $ incentive provided
or
Unidentified alternative scenario, not yet imagined.

Either way, the car drives smoothly, quietly, runs great, super roomy and delivers a "mildly boring" but convenient commute vehicle.

[canuguzzi]

There is a common misconception that the amount of pollution an engine emits is tied proportional to the amount of fuel it consumes.


Just because the VW diesel gets good fuel economy doesn't mean it pollutes less than one with less fuel economy.

In simple terms, take two wood burning stoves, one has a filter of sorts on the stove pipe, the other does not. Both burn the same amount of wood. Is one emitting fewer particulates or pollution into the air? No, it is just that one has a filter that captures some of the emissions and filters it. Is one emitting less particulates and pollution into the atmosphere? Yes, the one with the filter.

But make one stove burn its wood with less air and create more soot or something like that and then one does pollute more even though both are fed the same amount of wood.

What VW did in effect, using that simple analogy was bypass the filter or mess with the air in the burn chamber except when someone was looking.

Saying your VW isn't polluting more because it has great fuel economy fails to take in account that you aren't driving the car in test mode all the time so you have no reference with which to compare your observations. It makes the observation and the conclusions based on it rather invalid.

No, a wood stove isn't a diesel engine.

[Penderic]

Carbon hoofprints might be next..... eh? 

High Ho, Silver Away!

[elvisboy77]

They all cheat. Like crash tests, the manufacturers all design cars to the government wankers' genius standards.  And as long as you have a crash just like their test rig, your results will be similar.

Pro tip:  if you die in a crash, you can't sue the rascals either way.

Thanks, EPA.  Thanks IIHS.

[Kev m]

They all cheat. Like crash tests, the manufacturers all design cars to the government wankers' genius standards.  And as long as you have a crash just like their test rig, your results will be similar.

Pro tip:  if you die in a crash, you can't sue the rascals either way.

Thanks, EPA.  Thanks IIHS.

But you're not suggesting that we haven't progressed dramatically in automotive safety standards or in reducing emissions?

Shyte, I've seen the difference in crash standards.

And if you've ridden a motorcycle I'm sure you've even smelled the difference in emissions.

[Nic in Western NYS]

But you're not suggesting that we haven't progressed dramatically in automotive safety standards or in reducing emissions?

Shyte, I've seen the difference in crash standards.

And if you've ridden a motorcycle I'm sure you've even smelled the difference in emissions.

We've progressed so much, that I wonder whether a rigged TDi is still SO much cleaner than any vehicle that you can see its emissions, that we should start focusing really on the mega polluters, even at the individual vehicle/driver level.  Vehicles with engine problems or modifications that make their emission clearly visible (black particles, blue smoke) should get pulled over, inspected, and impounded if bad enough.

Cars get impounded for having illegal drugs, it's a much more direct consequence to have the vehicle impounded because the vehicle itself is the problem.  The first time that happens to a school bus will be the last time the school bus company lets one of their belching beauties that needs a new engine out on the road. Rolling coal?  Pull over good buddy!

[jas67]

And if you've ridden a motorcycle I'm sure you've even smelled the difference in emissions.

 :1:

Why is it that often when I get behind a cruiser that is new enough to not smell like a 60's muscle car from behind, it still does?

Yeah, it's rhetorical question.     Notice I didn't say Harley, as I'm sure that riders of other makes like to tune 'em rich too.    I know that sport bike guys use power commanders, but, I've never smelled ultra-rich exhaust behind any bike other than a cruiser, or an actual vintage bike.   Interestingly enough, when I've ridden with other airheads, even older ones (/5) I don't smell it either.

[jas67]

Rolling coal?  Pull over good buddy!

 :1: :1: :1:

When the gov't did the cash for clunkers, they took the wrong cars off the road.   Those that could afford a new car were not driving the old beater that was burning oil and belching blue smoke.   In fact, the program destroyed cars that would've been a significant upgrade for those that were, and likely still are driving a blue-smoke-belching POS.

The program should've been designed to promote a more natural, but sped up progression of the used car market.   
The trade ins on the new ones should've been sold with incentives to the POS drivers.    So long as the vehicle you're buying pollutes less than the one you are trading, you get the incentive.   The worst POS's get junked.

[Lannis]

:1:

Why is it that often when I get behind a cruiser that is new enough to not smell like a 60's muscle car from behind, it still does?

Yeah, it's rhetorical question.     Notice I didn't say Harley, as I'm sure that riders of other makes like to tune 'em rich too.    I know that sport bike guys use power commanders, but, I've never smelled ultra-rich exhaust behind any bike other than a cruiser, or an actual vintage bike.   Interestingly enough, when I've ridden with other airheads, even older ones (/5) I don't smell it either.

What I hate is riding behind several new or new-ish cars going up a long hill.   The hydrogen sulfide stink is terrible.   Hard to believe that they are "polluting less" based on the smell ....

Lannis

[jas67]

What I hate is riding behind several new or new-ish cars going up a long hill.   The hydrogen sulfide stink is terrible.   Hard to believe that they are "polluting less" based on the smell ....

Lannis

I hate to be behind several cars of any kind on a good road 

[Randown]

:1: :1: :1:

When the gov't did the cash for clunkers, they took the wrong cars off the road.   Those that could afford a new car were not driving the old beater that was burning oil and belching blue smoke.   In fact, the program destroyed cars that would've been a significant upgrade for those that were, and likely still are driving a blue-smoke-belching POS.

The program should've been designed to promote a more natural, but sped up progression of the used car market.   
The trade ins on the new ones should've been sold with incentives to the POS drivers.    So long as the vehicle you're buying pollutes less than the one you are trading, you get the incentive.   The worst POS's get junked.

The CFC program's objective was as an economic stimulus - putting $ into the economy & an ailing industry quickly was the priority, right or wrong. 

[jas67]

The CFC program's objective was as an economic stimulus - putting $ into the economy & an ailing industry quickly was the priority, right or wrong. 

True, but, an unintended side effect was to kill cars that were in mid life cycle while many more near end of life cycle cars were still on the road.    It may have also raised used car prices slightly for those least able to pay it.

[ITSec]

I know that sport bike guys use power commanders, but, I've never smelled ultra-rich exhaust behind any bike other than a cruiser, or an actual vintage bike.   Interestingly enough, when I've ridden with other airheads, even older ones (/5) I don't smell it either.

A properly installed and programmed Power Commander (PC-V) shouldn't be running rich - just richer than stock. In fact, if installed with the AutoTune and a wideband O2 sensor, it can actually have better overall emissions control since the O2 sensor will be providing feedback in both of what were formerly closed and open loop sections of the range...

Now, as to whether most squids take the time to properly dyno their bikes, and whether they understand how to achieve power without excess emissions - those are other questions!

[ITSec]

We've progressed so much, that I wonder whether a rigged TDi is still SO much cleaner than any vehicle that you can see its emissions, that we should start focusing really on the mega polluters, even at the individual vehicle/driver level.  Vehicles with engine problems or modifications that make their emission clearly visible (black particles, blue smoke) should get pulled over, inspected, and impounded if bad enough.

Cars get impounded for having illegal drugs, it's a much more direct consequence to have the vehicle impounded because the vehicle itself is the problem.  The first time that happens to a school bus will be the last time the school bus company lets one of their belching beauties that needs a new engine out on the road. Rolling coal?  Pull over good buddy!

Well, there are two major kinds of pollution, particularly with diesels - particulate (black belching) and NOx/CO2/CO. While we can't see the latter, it has a major effect on overall haze, smog, and other nastiness, particularly in areas that suffer inversions (LA, Las Vegas, and so on). At 40 times the specified volume of NOx, the tampered TDIs and invisible but nasty polluters - even if you can't see it.

And yes, we should be pulling visible polluters off the road - as well as the invisible ones when we find them. It would make owners, manufacturers and servicers a lot more aware of their part.

[Kev m]

:1:

Why is it that often when I get behind a cruiser that is new enough to not smell like a 60's muscle car from behind, it still does?

Yeah, it's rhetorical question.     Notice I didn't say Harley, as I'm sure that riders of other makes like to tune 'em rich too.    I know that sport bike guys use power commanders, but, I've never smelled ultra-rich exhaust behind any bike other than a cruiser, or an actual vintage bike.   Interestingly enough, when I've ridden with other airheads, even older ones (/5) I don't smell it either.

Don't fool yourself, I've smelled the richness of airheads too... Most anything with a carburetor is a noticeable difference from latel model EFI.

I also seem to remember a VFR of yours with aa Two Brother's Racing exhaust that smelled pretty rich, just saying.

No, I was actually talking about older cars and trucks or ricers when I made that comment, but yeah sure there are also plenty of motorcyclists that do it too.

Maybe you mostly remember cruisers because they make up the vast majority of bikes on the road. Or maybe it's just because you don't like them in the first place so they stick in your head more.

[jas67]

Don't fool yourself, I've smelled the richness of airheads too... Most anything with a carburetor is a noticeable difference from latel model EFI.

I believe it, just didn't notice it following my buddy on his /5.   Maybe the smell of the /5 I was on was covering it 

I also seem to remember a VFR of yours with aa Two Brother's Racing exhaust that smelled pretty rich, just saying.

Yes, I, I do recall smelling that following it when a buddy was riding it.   By contrast, the VFR800 that I replaced it with was fuel injected.  I'll bet that didn't smell.

No, I was actually talking about older cars and trucks or ricers when I made that comment, but yeah sure there are also plenty of motorcyclists that do it too.

Maybe you mostly remember cruisers because they make up the vast majority of bikes on the road. Or maybe it's just because you don't like them in the first place so they stick in your head more.

Cruisers the vast majority on the road -- absolutely, that might be it.   

Because I don't like 'em?    No, I can be more objective than that.   No, cruisers aren't my choice of bike, but, I don't dislike all of 'em.     Just the ones with smelly, rich, too loud exhaust, and traveling together in hurds, clogging up a twisty road on a nice day.

That said, I have also followed many that I couldn't smell.   Often the ones that smelled were the ones with loud pipes too.

Oh, I've never smelled too rich exhaust behind your Sporty 

[Nic in Western NYS]

Article in today's NY Times about whistleblowing at VW and a culture where employees feared to pass bad news up the chain of command.  VW overdue for a corporate culture remake it seems.  http://nyti.ms/1XXTJSx

[Lannis]

True, but, an unintended side effect was to kill cars that were in mid life cycle while many more near end of life cycle cars were still on the road.    It may have also raised used car prices slightly for those least able to pay it.

What, a State program to regulate the economy that had an unintended side effect?

Unheard of!   Absurd!   That NEVER happens.   What's next, reintroduce wolves to control the deer population?

Lannis

[PJPR01]

Article in today's NY Times about whistleblowing at VW and a culture where employees feared to pass bad news up the chain of command.  VW overdue for a corporate culture remake it seems.  http://nyti.ms/1XXTJSx

  And a pathetic offer of $500 gift card, plus another $500-$700 to spend at the VW dealership...I wonder if I can get a decent set of rims for that amount of money.  Honestly, I think this is just a pittance, they should be offering at least 2-3000 depending on model as that's what the market price damage is likely to be.  Just for kicks and giggles this weekend I dropped by 2 local dealerships to see what they would do about buying back my Passat TDI...which I am really enjoying, but thought it would be good to test the waters.  One dealership wasn't even willing to do so, and the other has a TDI trade in program, but couldn't provide an accurate trade in value...very slippery.

Wait and see appears to be the best approach for the moment...

[canuguzzi]

Yeah, ask them just who do they think you are...BMW offered more for collapsible suspensions.

[PJPR01]

Yeah, ask them just who do they think you are...BMW offered more for collapsible suspensions.

I presume due to the safety concerns on the BMW one - more of a liability issue than a pollution item.  Pretty sure VW is going to get badgered to up their compensation...it's funny, now they are being cheap about the fix knowing full well they are responsible for the market value reductions.  If they keep this up, they can rename their brand from the VolksWagen to the No Folks Wagen and that famous Fahrvehrgnugen campaign will have just become Ain'tdrivingnostinkingv eedubin!  :) 

If they could just add one more Nitrogen molecule to the Nitrous oxide emissions and capture it, they could sell it to dentists as laughing gas...joke for the chemists here.  :)

[jas67]

https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/goodwill_package/

You can better believe that I'm going to read the fine print on that paperwork for the "Goodwill Package" before signing for it.

"Beware Trojans bearing gifts."

[rss29]

This is the first  have heard about compensation for current owners. I'm not looking to profit off this situation, but that's an insulting offer. It doesn't even come close to making up for the loss in market value directly attributable to VW's actions, let alone make any attempt at reparations. If that is the final offer, they have misjudged this consumer and will have lost me forever. I'm keeping my Ducati, though.

[canuguzzi]

It is though just a recall. It didn't kill anyone outright and it isn't like GM gave everyone anything for bad ignition switches. Dodge didn't give everyone something for bad airbags either.

As for loss of resale value, you'd have to sell the vehicle to realize damages. Most people will probably take the $500 because if they keep the cars, proving you had a personal damage might be very difficult.

Don't forget that class actions will go forward and owners will have to opt out of them to pursue individual claims. Chances are that the $500 might be more than you could get on your own.

I can see a buy back program but actual use of the vehicles wouldn't likely be free to owners.