Working on my EVT, Disaster Strikes

[johnr]

Well with the national Guzzi Rally coming up next weekend and it being held in Invercargill (my home town) I felt it behooved  me to move heaven and earth to have the Wild Goose Guzzi on the road for it.

The result was a 6 hour effort yesterday which is to be followed up with more today. This work was all detail stuff that seemed to require tiny hands, but real progress was made.


Me in the process of deciding that despite their reputation Guzzis are not easy to work on at all! I suppose it depends on what you compare them with.

I got frustrated and fed up at the point of trying to fit the air box and gave up for the night.

One question I have is about the fuel supply connectors to the injectors. I have them fitted along with their collars and circlips, but it doesn't seem to me to be a very secure connection.

This is the connection in question. (there are two of them)


Before the collars and circlips were fitted the connectors did not seem to join up in a very positive way, even after giving them a few gentle taps with a block of wood and a rubber mallet.  They still seem a little wobbly with them supposedly locked in place.

Is this normal, or am I missing something?

[oldbike54]

 Not sure if they are supposed to wobble at all , but mine do ever so slightly . But then in general , I am a bit wobbly   Good to see the progress John .

  Dusty

[Aaron D.]

That airbox is a rotten thing, but it does go in. Had to dance with it.

[rodekyll]

I think there's some 'give' in the joint to allow for minor offsets in the hoses and vibration.  If it doesn't leak under pressure you're good.

Glad to see you're back on the job!

[Tom]

Good to see that you're still at it.

[pat80flh]

I just went out and checked that coupling on my 2000 Bassa, there is a lot of play there. Maybe turn the pump on a couple of times before you button it up, see what it does with pressure on it.

  I sympathize, there is a lot going on in that vee, and not a lot of room. This is my first Guzzi, and although it is a simple, primitive setup, it is not that easy to access a lot of things.
 

[johnr]

I think there's some 'give' in the joint to allow for minor offsets in the hoses and vibration.  If it doesn't leak under pressure you're good.

Glad to see you're back on the job!

Lot's of reasons it's taken so long rodekyll, I won't bore you with them but it's been Soooo frustrating.

I'll try pressure testing them when I have fuel and battery hooked up. I think I might have to bleed or prime the fuel system. What should I have disconnected to do that? The overflow pipe? Is it necessary?

[Bob Wegman]

Congratulations John,  I have been following your reentry here and you should be proud of your progress.  I hope you have many wonderful miles ahead on your EVT.

[pat80flh]

No bleeding necessary, turning  the key on and off a couple of times is all the priming necessary..

[Offcamber1]

John,

Red suspenders.  How cliche'!

Hope you get it going soon,

Kip

[johnr]

John,

Red suspenders.  How cliche'!

Hope you get it going soon,

Kip

Thanks Kip.
Red suspenders? well yes, I suppose.  They are maroon really though and unfortunately, rather then being a fashion accessory,  ever since my six pack turned into a 9 gallon keg have become something of a necessity.

[johnr]

Houston, We have a problem!

If you have been following the "Christchurch Guzzista; Who's Going to the tattley Rappet?" thread, ( http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78839.0 ) you will know that I got my bike going and ready for the legal bits about 2 hours before the rally was due to start, and that about 1 K (1100 yards) down the road it suffered a major failure.

There was clouds of white smoke that smelled of burning oil and the engine clunked to a stop.

Oil was pouring down from the top of the gearbox but we could not see how it was getting to there.

I have not yet started to pull things apart and inspecting stuff but we do have a theory about what may have happened.

Below is a diagram showing the EVTs breathing system.



You can see that the engine breather feeds to the top rail of the frame at it's upper end. (top left of the pic.)

From the lower end of the top tube there is a drain that feeds into the heads. There are two of these, one to each head, but only one is shown)

I presume (but do not know) that the lower end of the top tube is sealed off from the rest of the frame other wise the frame would eventually fill up with oil.

This does not strike me as a particularly effective breather as there doesn't seem to be much space for the engine to breath to, but it seemed to work on the EVT engine.

The only other opening in the system is a fairly small diameter over flow pipe from  slightly ahead (higher) than where the engine breather enters the top tube. (See next diagram,) This overflow feeds to the air box.



Now then, When the V11 engine was fitted it did not have the connections in the heads to take the breather return. It was something we had to work around.

What was done was that the two return pipes (for the heads) were joined and led via some extra plumbing to the sump, via the hole that the sump plug used to be in.

What we think is happening is that this creates a closed system and that in effect the breather from the engine leads straight to itself. The only relief would be via the overflow tube to the air box.

If the sump presurises, and we are presuming that it does, it would likely try and push oil back up the breather return that we lead to it.

Oil would then start to pour down (under pressure perhaps) into the air box.   It the air  box drain was blocked (it's pretty small) or possibly overwhelmed by the incoming oil, the air box would fill until straight oil was sucked into the air intakes.

We think (with an emphasis on think) that this is what happened and that the engine then hydrauliced.

I was going very slowly though (20kph or 12 mph) so that with a bit of luck no damage will have occurred to the engine.

I'm in the process right now of trying to find out what the V11 engine did with its engine breather before I go out and start looking physically.

Any ideas or comments would be appreciated.

Also if anyone has them stored electronically, I'm going to need the engine sections of both the workshop manual and parts book for the 2002 V11 LeMans.

[oldbike54]

 Sounds like a good starting point John .

  Dusty

[Muzz]

 

C'mon, this enquiring mind wants to know. The cloud of smoke was certainly  impressive!

[fotoguzzi]

I thought the V11 had the same breather in the spine frame.

[johnr]

That looks like the set up we have now. The only two differences I can see are that
a) The overflow pipe to the air box looks like it's less likely to carry oil. (It's mounted higher)
b) The box frame section looks like it has a far greater capacity that the tube on my tonti.

I still wonder how it can breath effectively though. I mean in effect the crankcase breaths to the crank case, except for the little over flow tube.

That puts our theory in doubt.

[John A]

When I don't have the fittings in the head, dual plugging them,I use the plate that covers the distributor hole with a pcv valve installed as a return for the two frame lines. The line that used to go to the air box gets dumped overboard. Hope this helps

[Wayne Orwig]

That looks like the set up we have now. The only two differences I can see are that
a) The overflow pipe to the air box looks like it's less likely to carry oil. (It's mounted higher)
b) The box frame section looks like it has a far greater capacity that the tube on my tonti.

I still wonder how it can breath effectively though. I mean in effect the crankcase breaths to the crank case, except for the little over flow tube.

That puts our theory in doubt.

The very peak of the spine frame has a vent line to the air box on the spine frames. On the Tonti frames the vent line is UNDER the frame tube, so it tends to get more oil in it pushed to the air box.

[johnr]

When I don't have the fittings in the head, dual plugging them,I use the plate that covers the distributor hole with a pcv valve installed as a return for the two frame lines. The line that used to go to the air box gets dumped overboard. Hope this helps

I'm not at all sure that I have a distributor hole?? Where is it?
Muzz suggested a one way valve on the return, but I argued that if there was pressure on it from the crank side it wouldn't return anyway. I may be wrong there.

I think that in any case I will follow your example with over flow line. (the air box one)

[charlie b]

What bothers me is why your engine quit.  Did your oil light come on before the engine quit?  If so, you have more of a problem than breather lines.

First, I would check the oil feed lines to the heads and make sure one of those is not leaking. 

Then I'd go through the breather system.  The engine has a vent(s) line that goes to the frame (line #14 in picture).  There is probably a valve in that line as well (PVC, #17 maybe, on my T5 it is right at the bottom where that breather hose connects to the engine).  Hot oil vapor leaves the block and goes into the frame.  It cools.  The oil condenses back to liquid.  The liquid oil then drains out the bottom of the frame and back to the oil pan (line #24).  The remaining air/oil vapor is routed through a line to the airbox (pic of airbox, line #16).  This is an environmental control thing.  The air still has some oil vapor in it so venting to atmosphere is not good.  Putting it in the airbox means the engine will suck it up and burn the excess oil vapor.

On some Guzzi's if the PVC valve gets stuck, the engine will pump oil back up the drain line into the breather lines.  That would mean a stream of oil into your intake system.  If this is the case then your intake airbox will be full of oil.  The good thing is it's a simple fix.  Just replace the PVC valve and check all the breather lines to make sure they are clear.  For grins you could also hook a 'drain hose' to the frame section and clean it out as well (you might be surprised at what comes out :)  ).

Have fun  :)

[Howard R]

I'm not at all sure that I have a distributor hole?? Where is it?

The no-longer-a-distributor hole (if you even have one -- I think the boss was deleted from the casting on later engines -- I know it is still there on my '96 Sport 1100, that's what I'm using for my breather return) is behind your front cylinder (on the right side).  There should be an ~2 " oval blank off plate held on by two screws, there was a Guzzi part from the Daytona/Centauro engines with hose barb fittings on it, or you could just take yours off & drill/tap for fittings.

The breather outlet from the engine should have a ball check valve which fits down inside the pipe.  It's the extra bit by the red arrow in your picture here:



If that is blocked or in the wrong way it could very well be the source of your smoke screen.  If you didn't incorporate one there in your breather "revisions" I don't know what that would do.

I know it's frustrating now but I hope there is a simple remedy.  Good luck!

Howard

[johnr]

What bothers me is why your engine quit.  Did your oil light come on before the engine quit?  If so, you have more of a problem than breather lines.

Agreed. It all happened very quickly Charlie but I did not see the oil light come on. I'm hoping it didn't.

First, I would check the oil feed lines to the heads and make sure one of those is not leaking. 

Then I'd go through the breather system.  The engine has a vent(s) line that goes to the frame (line #14 in picture).  There is probably a valve in that line as well (PVC, #17 maybe, on my T5 it is right at the bottom where that breather hose connects to the engine).  Hot oil vapor leaves the block and goes into the frame.  It cools.  The oil condenses back to liquid.  The liquid oil then drains out the bottom of the frame and back to the oil pan (line #24).  The remaining air/oil vapor is routed through a line to the airbox (pic of airbox, line #16).  This is an environmental control thing.  The air still has some oil vapor in it so venting to atmosphere is not good.  Putting it in the airbox means the engine will suck it up and burn the excess oil vapor.

There has been some discussion about a PCV valve. An item I knew nothing about. The trouble is that neither the parts book nor the workshop manual (for the EVT, I have no information yet about the V11) mentions or shows any such valve. ??? From what I've been able to glean since such a valve would be dependent for its operation on the over flow pipe from the frame remaining connected to the air box . Yes?

On some Guzzi's if the PVC valve gets stuck, the engine will pump oil back up the drain line into the breather lines.  That would mean a stream of oil into your intake system.  If this is the case then your intake airbox will be full of oil. 

That is exactly what we think/hope has happened.


Have fun  :)
[/quote]

[johnr]

The no-longer-a-distributor hole (if you even have one -- I think the boss was deleted from the casting on later engines -- I know it is still there on my '96 Sport 1100, that's what I'm using for my breather return) is behind your front cylinder (on the right side).  There should be an ~2 " oval blank off plate held on by two screws, there was a Guzzi part from the Daytona/Centauro engines with hose barb fittings on it, or you could just take yours off & drill/tap for fittings.

Nope. I don't have a non distributor plate.

The breather outlet from the engine should have a ball check valve which fits down inside the pipe.  It's the extra bit by the red arrow in your picture here:



If that is blocked or in the wrong way it could very well be the source of your smoke screen.  If you didn't incorporate one there in your breather "revisions" I don't know what that would do.

I know it's frustrating now but I hope there is a simple remedy.  Good luck!

Howard

OK. It would seem that a faulty or missing ball check valve (pcv valve?) is the most likely culprit. Though in truth, I've yet to fully grasp how such a valve would prevent oil being pumped up the oil return tube from the frame, or where the vacuum required to operate a pcv valve is supposed to come from.

As this valve is not mentioned in the (EVT) parts book, how would I acquire one if it is missing?
Oops! belay that! I've just found it in the book!

It is indeed frustrating. This machine has been off the road for more than long enough, and now I'm going to have to undo much of the work done over the last week or two to be able to get at things.

[johnr]

The last time I heard "clunk", followed by abrupt engine stop, and a lot of oil, I had a broken connecting rod poke a hole in the engine block.  (16 HP Onan engine)  Sure hope nothing like that happened to ya.

Me too. I'm having a mild sweat about it, at best the engine hydrauliced which could well have done very nasty things. Got my fingers crossed.

[charlie b]

A missing pcv should not cause the problem.  A stuck one could.

[johnr]

I thought the V11 had the same breather in the spine frame.

I don't see any sign of a pcv valve (or any other kind) on this V11 set up fotoguzzi. Is there one?

[Muzz]

Have you plucked up courage yet John to have a look inside the air box?

[charlie b]

Or pulled the plugs and pulled the engine through by hand?

[Muzz]

Or pulled the plugs and pulled the engine through by hand?

That was always going to be step 2 Charlie.  We could not actually see where the oil was pouring out from and on to the gearbox.  There was an awful lot of it.

[johnr]

Have you plucked up courage yet John to have a look inside the air box?

Charlie)Or pulled the plugs and pulled the engine through by hand?

That's a negative on both counts. Maybe tomorrow.