Diesel Truck Recommendations?

[Scud]

It looks like it may be time for my Toyota Tundra to go to the kids. I'm thinking about a 250 / 2500 series diesel truck. I have a small (18 foot) toy hauler, which, when loaded with motorcycles and other gear, is close to maximum tow weight for my 2005 Tundra (4.7L gas engine).

We do family road trips in the West and there are some seriously steep and long grades (such as Bishop toward Mammoth Lakes on 395: 2,500 feet in 8 miles). I'll drive it work (a whopping 5 miles one way) when it's raining or I have to carry a lot stuff. I commute about 80% on a motorcycle. I drive on dirt roads - sometimes to unload the Husqvarna, sometimes just to get out in the woods and go for a hike. I don't do extreme off-roading, but I will take it in some tight and/or light technical areas, snow, and ice.

So - that's my situation and intended use. What are your experiences? What would buy (or avoid) if you were trying to get a Crew Cab (4-door) 4WD diesel truck for less than US $20,000?

Discuss........

[dsrdave]

First, DON'T get a Ford with the 6.0.  They had a lot of eng. issues that are very expensive to correct.  That leaves a dodge or chev.  Both good trucks.  I gave the nod to the chev. a bit quieter and a better ride.  In both cases a 2006 or early 2007 would be the best choice due to emission regs that have been in place since then.

[Penderic]

I have a deluxe 2003 Diesel Ram I bought used 10 years ago to tow my 25' toy hauler across Canada. Very nice truck.

Back then I couldnt afford the brand new V8 diesels that GM and Ford came out with and I didnt trust the new V8 designs and more expensive parts needed for routine maintenence - compared with the popular diesel Cummins.

I keep my vehicles for a long time. I went with the engine and transmission package that I thought would also last the longest - Cummins and a 6 speed manual truck tranny that had a long and honourable track record. I wanted a rear axle ratio for better highway mileage and got the 3.73 instead of the 4.11 ratio. Incredible torque and still good fuel mileage.

I got the 4 wheel drive cause 2 wheel pickups get stuck so easily on wet grass, etc.

Turning radius on the stretched out 2500's trucks varied a lot 10 years ago- dont know the current crop but consider it too. My truck has a excellent turning radius for its size. I tested a long Chev truck 2500 crew cab 8'box and I had a lot of trouble with tight corners.

If you are keeping the truck past 100k miles, be aware that the injectors on some models need to be replaced or refurbished. That can be an expensive surprise.

[Noguzznoglory]

03-06 and some 07 dodge with 5.9 cummins are my reccomendation. The 6.7's on later models have emissions controls that make it get worse mileage. Have one with 330k and one with 440k and have been pleased. 20mpg unloaded. Transmissions have been known to be a little troublesome. A billet converter is a must if you are towing much weight
Ford 7.3 are very dependable also. They don't feel like they have as much power as the cummins but they'll cruise all day at 70-75 with a 10k lb trailer no problem. Had one we ran to 421k and was still a strong piece.
Run as fast as you can from 6.0's. They are weak and "chips" don't help a lot. High pressure pump, egr cooler and head gaskets all major concerns.

No experience with the Chevys but they come with the best transmission: Allison at540 which is what is used in school busses and other medium duty trucks.
 
4 wheel drive is a must if you're planning to camp at unpaved campsites or even paved sites with major elevation changes

On ANY  of them, maintenance record is important. So many people want to be a " big dog" with a diesel truck but can't or won't pay the higher prices for the filters and skimp on maintenance.
Hmmmm.  $15.00 more for a filter or $10k for a motor. Where's the logic

[rocker59]

The Ford 6.7 is strong at 850 lb/ft. Nice transmission. Fuel economy isn't bad. I've put a few thousand on my dad's, pulling 15,000 plus. 11 to 13 with that load. 18-19 empty.

Avoid both the 6.0 and 6.4, for various reasons. The 99 to 01 7.3 is nice. 550 lb/ft, so lots weaker than the 6.7...

GM'S Duramax and Ram'S Cummins are both real nice. The Alison transmission on the Chevy and GMC is nice.

Any of the three modern diesel pickups would serve you well.

I think you'll find 20k won't go far shopping for one of these. You'll be looking at 10 year old GM trucks and 15 year old Fords.

[Scud]

Thanks guys, for the input so far. Clearly, I am in the used truck market - as new would be more like $60,000. But I won't put a lot of miles on a big truck, so I don't mind getting a well-maintained one that's already done 25-40% of it's useful life. I tend to keep vehicles a long time (bought the Tundra new in 2005 and put 100,000 miles on it).

It's going to be a couple weeks till I have the cash together. But I like this one a lot:

http://slo.craigslist.org/cto/5255621876.html

Normally, I take my truck to buy a bike... but I think I'd be willing to navigate some twisty roads for a little role-reversal in this case.

And Penderic - who knew you could write so well? I expected to laugh at a picture, but instead you made me smile... and think about a manual tranny and axle ratio.  I like the idea of a manual transmission, for utility, low maintenance, and keeping the drive interesting - and being absolutely certain that my daughters won't "borrow" it... A friend has a 7.3 Ford F350 - and he gets concerned about his automatic transmission temperature when we're crossing deserts in mid-day heat. So such worries with a manual. 

Oh - was I supposed to put NGC (No Guzzi Content) in the title of my topic? If so, sorry... and if a moderator feels like adding that, it's good by me.

I will, at some point, put a Guzzi in the bed, or tow one in a trailer.  There.  Guzzi Content.

[oldbike54]

 Unless MG starts building Diesel trucks tomorrow , the topic title is pretty clear 

 Oh , the advice re 6.0 Fords seems to be valid . Also , the idea of a manual transmission sounds like fun 
 
  Dusty

[Madtownguzzi]

Thanks guys, for the input so far. Clearly, I am in the used truck market - as new would be more like $60,000. But I won't put a lot of miles on a big truck, so I don't mind getting a well-maintained one that's already done 25-40% of it's useful life. I tend to keep vehicles a long time (bought the Tundra new in 2005 and put 100,000 miles on it).

It's going to be a couple weeks till I have the cash together. But I like this one a lot:

http://slo.craigslist.org/cto/5255621876.html

Normally, I take my truck to buy a bike... but I think I'd be willing to navigate some twisty roads for a little role-reversal in this case.

And Penderic - who knew you could write so well? I expected to laugh at a picture, but instead you made me smile... and think about a manual tranny and axle ratio.  I like the idea of a manual transmission, for utility, low maintenance, and keeping the drive interesting - and being absolutely certain that my daughters won't "borrow" it... A friend has a 7.3 Ford F350 - and he gets concerned about his automatic transmission temperature when we're crossing deserts in mid-day heat. So such worries with a manual. 

Oh - was I supposed to put NGC (No Guzzi Content) in the title of my topic? If so, sorry... and if a moderator feels like adding that, it's good by me.

I will, at some point, put a Guzzi in the bed, or tow one in a trailer.  There.  Guzzi Content.

That truck looks really clean. Here in Wisconsin it would be starting to rust out.

[Noguzznoglory]

I didn't mention the ford 6.7 cuz you won't get near one for 20k.
If the truck in the cl  ad you linked can prove maintenace that appears to be a good buy. 05-06 dodges in this area with auto tarns sell for aroun 20-25k.
I would prefer the manual trans if i knew I didn't have to drive it in town

[Scud]

Well, my wife liked that golden RAM (although that sounds suspiciously like something Moses and God would not like). She even liked the idea of a weekend in Paso Robles (wine country) to get it (God's OK with with wine, I think... depending who you ask).

UNTIL..... the manual transmission part. She does drive the truck occasionally, even knows how to drive stick... but her VETO powers are "gearing" up...  There are a lot of hills where we live, so the manual would intimidate her - fear of getting stuck pointed uphill.

Looks like no manual tranny for me. 

[LowRyter]

I think it's a stretch to find a nice used diesel 4wd for $20k.  Typically, 2wd with 100k miles are $20k.  Although 100k miles aren't a lot for diesel, look for good maintenance and condition and be aware of the failure and maintenance items subject to each particular model and year.

5 years ago, I was able to purchase a 2004.5 (LLY) 2500 Duramax Silverado X Cab 2wd with 35k miles for $17k.  I use it to pull my 5th wheel toy hauler.  This model of truck is one of the more reliable diesels; however, some will overheat and the water pump is $1k job.  Mine hasn't overheated (there is a fix) but I am not looking forward to a water pump failure.

The truck with very best reputation is 2006-2009 (LBZ/LLM) Duramax.  It has the 6 speed Allison Transmission, a little more power and good maintainability reliability.

Here's a rundown:  Chevy/GMC Duramax.  Popular with the RV crowd, comfortable ride, great seats, less engine noise, Allison transmissions, above average reliability (depending on the year) but the first gen (LB7) had expensive injector problems, the dash instruments are prone to failure.

Ford:  Popular with work truck crowd, rides like a truck, 7.3 is most reliable but is more than 15 years old, subsequent engines (particularly 6.0) have bad reliability issues, Ford has bad a reputation for honoring warranty claims (it's easy to rack a $10k repair bill), Bosch fuel systems is a high dollar failure for newer models.

Dodge:  Equally popular for work and RV.  Rides like a truck, uncomfortable seats, Cummins engines are very reliable but can fail with bad fuel pumps on early models that can ruin an engine ($10k), weak Chrysler automatic transmissions cannot handle torque load (look for later model Aisin transmissions).

The newer diesels need DEF to meet emissions and have poorer fuel mileage.

Best bet is Duramax (particularly LBZ/LLM but not LB7) and Cummins with Aisin Transmission, IMO.  Look for good condition.  I would avoid a work truck since they get used up (not just the drive train).

[Offcamber1]

If you are keeping the truck past 100k miles, be aware that the injectors on some models need to be replaced or refurbished. That can be an expensive surprise.

I was the service manager in a Ford/Dodge dealer for a couple of years.  The injector issue on the Cummings is normally related to owner indifference to the fuel filter service interval, and the brand of filter being used.  Non factory filters disintegrate and foul the injectors if you run them too long.  If you can find a Dodge Cummings 5.7 with a strong dealer service history, buy it; it will serve you well if you continue to stick to the schedule.

I think the rest of the chassis/body on the Ford is superior to the Dodge, but I don't trust the motors.  Any of them.  But that is perhaps a bit unfair on my part since we sold/serviced Fords to Dodge on a about an 8 to 1 ratio, so my statistical sample on the Dodges is a bit small in comparison.  Might have just been lucky?

I don't know anything about the duramax, nor have any experience with them.

The comment was made earlier about people who buy diesels but really can't afford them.  Excellent point!  Regardless of brand, find one that has been professionally cared for.  I'd rather have a 200K truck that had a good service history than a 100K truck that someone either couldn't afford or was not dilligent about the service.

Good luck with the purchase.

[Scud]

Great input. I agree that the service history is probably more important than the mileage. There are a few trucks in the 20k space. For example:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/cto/5272950947.html

I want to go to Scorpion Bay with a dirt bike and some surfboards: http://www.scorpionbay.net/getting_there.php

[LowRyter]

It looks like an LBZ.  Looks like a nice truck.  Lots of extras for better and worse.  I am a little skeptical of all the off road stuff it might ride pretty rough.    High mileage.  Otherwise looks OK.  Drive it and check it out.

From all I've read the LBZ/LMM is the best truck out there.

[LaMojo]

I personally would not buy any diesel powered truck with 100k or more miles.  Too much to go wrong with very expensive repairs vs gas engines. Chrysler uses Cummings,  Ford first used IH medium sized diesels then started making their own.  GM has never had any luck with diesels so Isuzu designed and built (Duramax) engines are used.  Ford and GM have had various problems where the Cummings has less so.  Stay away from any engine that has a aftermarket chip in the engine management module.  Some Duramax issues: http://duramaxhub.com/duramax-problems.html

[rboe]

I have flirted with diesels myself but unless diesel fuel comes down cheaper than gas again (which I've have seen in Phoenix last month - a shocker!) the economics of a diesel just don't seem to be there. Big gas motors or V6's with turbo's (e.g. EcoBoost from Ford but there seems to be direct injection problems - not with the injection but the fact that the ERG valve dumps oily air into the induction tract and any cleaning fuel mixture goes directly into the cylinder so it can't clean the intake - still being played out as far as I know) have the power to maintain or exceed the speed limit up massive hills towing stupid trailers.

Maintenance requirements on gas are a bit less and cheaper and repairs are cheaper. If you pay the premium in maintenance and fuel for diesel you need to drive for a very long time to justify it - will you keep the truck that long?

I have no dog in the fight but todays gas motors are very well made and give up little to diesels. For the money, I bet you can get a very nice gas truck compared to a diesel version. But I've only owned one truck...... 

[Noguzznoglory]

I've towed with gas and disel motors both. The gas engines will pull the load but not nearly as comfortably as a diesel especially not on hills. I've never got better than 9 mpg out of a gas engine as opposed to 12-13 with my dodge.
Today's gas enginees WILL go several hundred thousand miles thereby negating the Diesel engine's durability advantage.
Regular maintenace is more expensive on the diesel but the difference in fuel prices is offset by the better mpg of the diesel.

[LowRyter]

it's a much better pull with diesel vs gas when hauling.  The gas motors will rev like hell and get third less to half the mileage when pulling or towing.  The heavy weight of the diesel engine also balances the load.

Scud, whether you get a diesel or gas powered truck, 3/4 ton is the way to go.  The brakes, suspension, balance, transmission, drive train just make a huge difference when towing vs 1/2 ton. 

[WitchCityGuzzi]

I've got an 06 Silverado 2500 HD Duramax/Allison.

I've never owned a vehicle that I've spent less on. Other than routine maintenance, the only thing I've had go is a 20 dollar rear door lock electric motor.

I get 20-21 mpg on the highway, it's comfortable, quiet inside, handles nicely has great brakes for a pick up, and will pull a house off it's foundation.

Like any diesel, if you change the oil and keep the fuel clean they'll go for a very long time. They've gotten 700,000 miles out of  the Duramax motor, so I wouldn't consider one with 100,000 all that much mileage.

As mentioned, the LB7 motors had injector issues (most of which have been cured by now). The LLY and LBZ motors are absolute rocks.

Good luck with your decision. There's a lot of good options out there.

[wymple]

Duramax. Seems to have the best all around rep. Ford's had too many troublesome engines, and Dodge has had too many tranny troubles. The Cummins is OK, unless you go back a few years when the valve train was noisy as hell. Still were a good engine. The owner of a large trans shop near St. Louis told me that he does not recommend Dodge to his friends. Those newer trans are horribly expensive to repair. Whatever you do, avoid the Ford 6.0 at all costs.

[wyrtyr2]

I have previously owned 3 Ram Cummins.  All three had front end problems or transmission issues.  Now I am on my second Chev Duramax.  Very happy.  Solid, low noise, and very powerful. The Allison tranny is perfect-even with big loads in the mountains. Mine even came with a Jake brake. DEF is not a big deal either.  I trade at 80K, so if you want to wait for a great truck...Kidding)  I will be buying another.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Our daughter has a 08 Ford 350 with the 6.0 Powerstroke. It had all the usual problems but now at 200K miles it's become reliable..An older Ford 7.3 Powerstroke or Dodge Cummins with a manual trans are reliable and come from the recent past when Diesels were more about economy and long life when working rather than who can climb the hill the fastest...I don't mind being in the right hand lane and using the gearbox...
  OP, coming from a 1/2 ton Toyota to a 3/4 ton HD Diesel 4x4 trucks you might find the ride punishing on a long trip. Oh, some of you buy two wheel drive? 

[old head]

I have a 94 dodge cummins diesel with 5 speed.  bought used in 98 with 50k miles.  This one has no emissions controls, no Catalytic converter.
wife drives it to work everyday, in town, she gets 17-18.  With our 28' trailer we would get 14 pulling, but one time on a flat road running 55 we got 18+ between Amarillo and Denver.  We get 21-23 running down the interstate empty.

It pulls great, plenty of power for what we do with it.

Pushing 300k, the only thing on the motor has been a fuel cutoff solenoid, and some fuel return lines.
I have put about 4 starters, 1 alternator, 1 radiator, 4 sets of ball joints (weak design), just replaced every tie rod, and pitman arm under the front.  brakes last about 50-60 K on the front, 2 sets on the back, and one fuel pump.
dash is junk, you look at if funny and it cracks, I had to replace the dash board, it literally broke into pieces.  the trim pieces are cracked and broken on the dash, major pain to pull to replace the heater core and evaporator.

it uses about a quart of oil per 1000 miles. 

Other than the ball joints and cheap dash, I have been well pleased with the truck.  the maintenance is higher than a gas, takes 10 quarts for an oil change, oil filter is twice what a gas engine is, and the fuel filter runs about $10.  and I don't know if the fuel mileage makes up for it or not, doubtful. I you are pulling a load most of the time, then yeah its worth, put doubtful if you just use the towing ability once in awhile.  And when it breaks, parts are more money.  Don't go to Dodge to get your parts, go to Cummins they are cheaper.

Don't know about later models, but mine uses a special transmission oil that is only at the dealer, $35 a quart.  I changed it last year, the manual says lifetime oil, but I changed it at 250K, it was white, pretty weird looking.

The motor and transmission are way better than the truck.  The truck rides like a 2500, rough.  If Dodge would build a truck like cummins builds their engines it would be great, but you have to take the good with the bad.

Old Head

[Rough Edge racing]

 The last and best of the big pu truck  gas engines is the Chevy 8.1 that was from 2001- 2006. They get poor fuel mileage empty or loaded but can pull 10,000 pounds with ease ....
 Some situations  might favor a gas engine over a Diesel....especiall y the extra initial cost of the Diesel or for a truck not running a lot of miles per year.

[rocker59]

I've towed with gas and disel motors both. The gas engines will pull the load but not nearly as comfortably as a diesel especially not on hills. I've never got better than 9 mpg out of a gas engine as opposed to 12-13 with my dodge.
Today's gas enginees WILL go several hundred thousand miles thereby negating the Diesel engine's durability advantage.
Regular maintenace is more expensive on the diesel but the difference in fuel prices is offset by the better mpg of the diesel.

Yep.  If you're buying a diesel truck, it's for the towing power.

Even if you buy 15 year old Ford 7.3, it's going to have something like 550 lb/ft torque at 1800 rpm.  If you're towing that's the important part.

Gas engines make peak torque at 3500 to 4000 rpm, and that peak torque is going to be 325 to 420, depending upon the gas engine.  And, no telling what the number is at 1800-2000, cruising down the interstate.  2/3 of peak, if lucky.

If you tow.  If you tow in the mountains.  If you tow in the mountains at mile-high altitudes, no gas engine can touch the diesels of the past 15 years.

If you don't tow, or if you tow at seal level on flat ground, buy a gas engine and call it good.

[rocker59]

I've been casually shopping for a truck over the past year, so watching prices in my area.

I've seen several nice Fords, '99-'00 with the 7.3 and under 100,000 miles sell for $14,000 to $15,000.  The range on these seems to be $15000-$20000 with mileages 75000 to 125000.  People really like the last of the 7.3s, so have been watching them close.  I passed on a nice '99 for $14000 with 89,000 miles.  7.3 4x4 XLT.  I thought it was priced too high.  I was wrong, as it didn't last long at that price.  Since then, they've all been more expensive.

I've also been watching '06-'07 LBZ GMCs and Chevrolets.  90,000 to 125,000 miles, Silverado LT/Sierra SLT, 4x4 6.6 Duramax.  These seem to be in the $20,000 to $25,000 price range.  If I could find the right one, I might pull the trigger.

However, I do know someone with a 2011 6.7 Ford Super Duty Lariat with only 40,000 miles.  They're planning on getting a new truck in the spring.  It's a real nice truck.  Like new.  So, I may consider spending a lot more money to get a truck that I know.

We'll see.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Keep one thing in mind, some  service on a Diesel might require pulling the engine and or front sheet metal. Later 7.3 Powerstrokes had a problem with oil pans rusting from the inside out. Replacing the oil pan on a 4x4 is a huge job requiring jacking the body off the frame so the engine can be lifted for pan clearance. ...Replacing a valve cover gasket on the V8 diesels is a major pain in the ass for example. The older Cummins can develop a bad front seal oil leak,another nasty repair job...
   I do my own work so I would buy the Dodge because the inline engine is easier to work on for some maintenance... But if spending near 20 grand it might be wise to pay a little extra from a reputable dealer with a warranty ...

[Murray]

We have a couple of Isuzu 300's at work pretty good although no fireballs of speed they are a proper workhorse not even sure if they are available in the US.

[Scud]

Thanks again, very useful discussion. I live near sea level, and sometimes just tow to the beach campground. The Tundra is perfectly happy with that. However, I give her a real flogging getting up to Mammoth Lakes (8,000 feet). My oldest daughter is going to NAU in Flagstaff, AZ (7,000 feet) and I have not towed the trailer there yet.

A bigger gas engine truck might be a good choice for me, especially as it seems that ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel is not readily available in Mexico. But from this article, it appears that older (pre-2006) diesels do work in Mexico.  https://www.mexicomike.com/fuel_in_mexico/diesel-mexico.html

BTW, it's really not about the truck..... it's about this:

[LowRyter]

any 3/4 ton truck will put that Toyota to shame pulling that trailer and gear (in the photo).  I think you are severely overweight and on the borderline of safety.

I prefer a diesel but a gas 3/4 ton (or 1500HD) would be a huge and much safer upgrade.  The brakes, transmission, suspension are so much better for towing and controlling your load.