Author Topic: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.  (Read 48660 times)

Offline pyoungbl

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #210 on: October 17, 2015, 08:31:11 PM »
Lannis, I understand your position on this.  The labor to pull the parts and look at the tappets would be about $400 (it was in my case).  If the tappets are bad you have the dealer put in a claim for the kit.  If not you put everything back and hope for the best.  In 10K miles do it all again.  Given that this is not turning out to be a case of owner misuse, odd climate, or bad oil it seems that the question is not 'if' but 'when'.  You feel lucky? 
    I like the bike so eating $1K was a tough meal to swallow but I can't think of a bike I like better.  I'm still hoping that Piaggio will pay for the kit.  When I had a Multistrada we had lots of problems with the gas tanks swelling.  In the end there was a class action suite that cost Ducati, or the tank supplier, a bunch.  The lawyers got rich and the owners got a new tank.  I hope Piaggio got the message.  It would appear that this problem extends to all 8V engines sold in the US.  It's expensive to comp a $1K assembly to every 8V owner but when you get some lawyers involved the bottom line will be much worse.

To answer your question, yes, I decided to do the replacement no matter what.  Now I see that my tappets were in the early stages of going to shit.


Peter Y.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline MotoG5

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 343
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #211 on: October 18, 2015, 12:22:14 AM »
Lannis, I understand your position on this.  The labor to pull the parts and look at the tappets would be about $400 (it was in my case).  If the tappets are bad you have the dealer put in a claim for the kit.  If not you put everything back and hope for the best.  In 10K miles do it all again.  Given that this is not turning out to be a case of owner misuse, odd climate, or bad oil it seems that the question is not 'if' but 'when'.  You feel lucky? 
    I like the bike so eating $1K was a tough meal to swallow but I can't think of a bike I like better.  I'm still hoping that Piaggio will pay for the kit.  When I had a Multistrada we had lots of problems with the gas tanks swelling.  In the end there was a class action suite that cost Ducati, or the tank supplier, a bunch.  The lawyers got rich and the owners got a new tank.  I hope Piaggio got the message.  It would appear that this problem extends to all 8V engines sold in the US.  It's expensive to comp a $1K assembly to every 8V owner but when you get some lawyers involved the bottom line will be much worse.

To answer your question, yes, I decided to do the replacement no matter what.  Now I see that my tappets were in the early stages of going to shit.


Peter Y.

Peter, I went the down the same road and this is what I found at 16k miles.

Seems to be the typical situation for bikes that have some miles on and are not showing any of the "symptoms" that indicate failure has taken place.  Like you said, best be looking if you are still running flats.

Offline Xlratr

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 797
  • Stelvio NTX, 850 T3
  • Location: Germany
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #212 on: October 18, 2015, 05:15:02 AM »
Well, I thought about the tappet removal issue and realized that I could just remove the cam and the tappet would fall out into my hand.  Done.  Here's what I found:

so it's clear to me that my tappets were going south.  Word for the wise.

Peter Y.

Peter, my Stelvio had 22,000km when I decided to have mine done. Yours has covered more miles than mine and I would say the wear looks to be a bit higher in the same relation. That would suggest to me that the DLC is slowly wearing off, from day 1. That would also suggests that oil analysis doesn't pick it up. Hopefully because the filter takes the particles out of circulation.
John
John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

Offline molly

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1317
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #213 on: October 18, 2015, 05:32:00 AM »
The way I understand it, if the tappets are damaged and losing their surface, Piaggio is supposed to GIVE you the roller kit.

Did you just decide to bag that and not put up with the Piaggio hassle?    I think I'd put up with a bit of delay and hassle for $1,000 .... ?

My plan is to have the dealer pull mine and get the deal from Piaggio .... ?

Lannis

The replacement scheme applies to bikes which have cam wear and a full service history regardless of the bike's age.
The dealer plays an important role in the process because if he is on your side certain criteria can be er.. ignored.
Dave

Lincolnshire, U.K.

Griso 1100

Offline pyoungbl

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #214 on: October 18, 2015, 08:18:47 AM »
This morning I pulled out the flats from my other head just to see if the DLC wear was consistent (one head has about 5K more miles than the other, dropped a valve under warranty and was replaced).  Now I can show all four flats...clear wear on all of them.  Oddly enough the wear is not the same.  On each head one tappet shows much more wear than the other.  I'm guessing there is more spring pressure on one pair of valves than on the other due to the shims that Pete Roper has mentioned in the past.


Peter Y.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline bsanut

  • Weekend Warrior
  • ***
  • *
  • Posts: 127
    • Eurotrash Jambalaya
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #215 on: October 18, 2015, 09:36:17 AM »
If all were perfect, what is a used tappet SUPPOSED to look like?

Joe
Joe Carter

Eurotrash Jambalaya

2014 California Custom
2009 Stelvio (sold)
2002 EV11 (sold)
1983 California II (sold)
1974 Nuovo Falcone (sold)
2007 Griso (sold)

Offline Lannis

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24994
  • Location: Central Virginia
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #216 on: October 18, 2015, 09:38:54 AM »
If all were perfect, what is a used tappet SUPPOSED to look like?

Joe

Another good question!    Nothing's going to get past THIS group .... !  :laugh:
When you're taking flak, it means you're over your target.

Offline krglorioso

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1322
  • Location: Oceanside, California
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #217 on: October 18, 2015, 05:19:29 PM »
I knew it...I just knew it.  When Mandello quit the hydros, this all started.

Ralph
Ralph

Offline pauldaytona

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2457
    • Paul's fast Guzzi Page
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #218 on: October 19, 2015, 06:47:34 AM »
If all were perfect, what is a used tappet SUPPOSED to look like?

Joe

 Equal black. They start shiny like a mirror black.
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

canuguzzi

  • Guest
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #219 on: October 19, 2015, 11:54:13 AM »
Equal black. They start shiny like a mirror black.

Does it actually flake off or is it ground off into very a very find dust type effect?

Offline pyoungbl

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #220 on: October 19, 2015, 12:11:56 PM »
The DLC is a very thin coating.  As I drag a fingernail across the tappet I cannot feel a ridge between DLC and metal.  It looks like the coating initially comes off as chips or flakes but later is ground off as it gets closer to the perimeter of the tappet.  Then it's simply metal to metal contact so the next step is pure metal being worn away. 
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Vasco DG

  • Guest
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #221 on: October 19, 2015, 05:48:56 PM »
Does it actually flake off or is it ground off into very a very find dust type effect?

If you look at the pics I posted a while back taken by an electron microscope you can clearly see the pattern of disintegration. The surface crazes and then flakes off. Once the DLC is work off it goes to hell in a handbasket very, very quickly.

Pete

Vasco DG

  • Guest
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #222 on: October 19, 2015, 07:45:34 PM »
This morning I pulled out the flats from my other head just to see if the DLC wear was consistent (one head has about 5K more miles than the other, dropped a valve under warranty and was replaced).  Now I can show all four flats...clear wear on all of them.  Oddly enough the wear is not the same.  On each head one tappet shows much more wear than the other.  I'm guessing there is more spring pressure on one pair of valves than on the other due to the shims that Pete Roper has mentioned in the past.

Peter Y.

I think this is a factor certainly. Going back through the failures I've experienced in the last year there seems to be a pattern of bikes needing the 'C' kit, (Not originally fitted with shims.) tending to have more damage to the exhaust tappets whereas those requiring an 'A' or 'B' kit and already fitted with shims seem to show greater wear on the inlets. I can't confirm that with absolute certainty as I didn't record each kit for each failure but the history of pics I took and kits I've fitted seems to bear this out.

Good catch.

Pete

Offline MotoG5

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 343
Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #223 on: October 19, 2015, 07:55:38 PM »
I think this is a factor certainly. Going back through the failures I've experienced in the last year there seems to be a pattern of bikes needing the 'C' kit, (Not originally fitted with shims.) tending to have more damage to the exhaust tappets whereas those requiring an 'A' or 'B' kit and already fitted with shims seem to show greater wear on the inlets. I can't confirm that with absolute certainty as I didn't record each kit for each failure but the history of pics I took and kits I've fitted seems to bear this out.

Good catch.

Pete

My bike was an A Kit and showed the greater wear by far on the inlets. I was somewhat surprised by this at the time due to having read your comments about the C Kit bikes you had worked on.

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
Advertise Here
 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler with donation credit
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
Advertise Here