1100 Spot clutch

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, I've searched briefly, but someone here knows. 
The Kid is bringing his new to him early 1100 Spot down for some maintenance while he deals with an issue with his mom.  Says the clutch is slipping, he's done the mineral spirits trick to no avail, and wants to put new plates in it. He asked me which he should order. I dunno. It's something I've never paid a whole lot of attention to, because it hasn't been a problem I've had to deal with. I know there are good and bad along with YMMV plates.
Which should he put in? He thinks it's a keeper, and wants to do it right the first time.
While we're doing this, he wants to tear down the transmission and put new bearings in it to do away with the phenolic bearing cages, and swap out a noisy fifth gear. He's already sourced the bearings. Any pitfalls?
Lastly, he asked if he should use the o rings or truncated cone rings that Guzzi uses. I told him I thought several o rings were the accepted setup. What's the part number/ designation/size on these?
The idea is when he brings it down, he'll have everything we need.
Oh, is there a tutorial for pulling the transmission on a spiney? That one's for me. 
TIA

[Aaron D.]

I put a set of bonded/riveted plates in the Jackal last year, very nice. From MG.

O rings. I have some sent free from Charlie M/Antietam, PM me your address and I'll pass them on.

[Murray]

Ok, I've searched briefly, but someone here knows. 
The Kid is bringing his new to him early 1100 Spot down for some maintenance while he deals with an issue with his mom.  Says the clutch is slipping, he's done the mineral spirits trick to no avail, and wants to put new plates in it. He asked me which he should order. I dunno. It's something I've never paid a whole lot of attention to, because it hasn't been a problem I've had to deal with. I know there are good and bad along with YMMV plates.
Which should he put in? He thinks it's a keeper, and wants to do it right the first time.
While we're doing this, he wants to tear down the transmission and put new bearings in it to do away with the phenolic bearing cages, and swap out a noisy fifth gear. He's already sourced the bearings. Any pitfalls?
Lastly, he asked if he should use the o rings or truncated cone rings that Guzzi uses. I told him I thought several o rings were the accepted setup. What's the part number/ designation/size on these?
The idea is when he brings it down, he'll have everything we need.
Oh, is there a tutorial for pulling the transmission on a spiney? That one's for me. 
TIA

Surflex clutch plates seem to be pretty good although my factory ones are still in  my bike. To do the gearbox you'll need the boss holding tool and a rattle gun with a deep 27mm socket (this is from distant memory Mr Roper esq would be a better person to advise) the nuts on the main shaft are pegged thread locked and !@#$ing tight. Easiest way of removal is to lift the bike off the gearbox/motor unit.

[guzzisteve]

I think you can remove triangular sub frame pieces in front and crab it like a Tonti. IF I remember correctly what I did back then.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I put a set of bonded/riveted plates in the Jackal last year, very nice. From MG.

O rings. I have some sent free from Charlie M/Antietam, PM me your address and I'll pass them on.

PM sent your way. Thanks!

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Here's my recommendations:

These are the friction plates I use:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165
or these (haven't tried them yet though):
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4687

I have a 100 more o-rings if anyone needs some. Free.

[ailgev]

Im Pretty Certain You Cant Get The Straight Cut 3 Dog Fifth Gear AnymoreIf Thats What You Were Intending On Doing.

My 1100 Box Was Left Too Long And Other Gears Were starting To Show Signs Of Pitting. Im Suspecting From The Bits Of Fifth Gear Floating Around The Box Was The Cause.

I Just Bought A Second Hand 1100 Cali Box And Swapped Them Into The 1000 Sport Case.

You Cant Just Use The Cali Case Without A Little Bit Of Milling Work On The Top Two Holes That Secure The Box To The Motor And The Four Hole Mounting Plate Boss On The Box.

[Murray]

I think you can remove triangular sub frame pieces in front and crab it like a Tonti. IF I remember correctly what I did back then.

No you can't, you can on a Daytona TBH trying to crab is going to save you what? undoing 1 or 2 bolts?

[Vasco DG]

Chuck, allow me a few hours and I'll pen a screed on my experiences with this. IMHO the early Spineys are some of the most infuriating models to work on simply because they aren't well thought out and everything is really cramped.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

Im Pretty Certain You Cant Get The Straight Cut 3 Dog Fifth Gear AnymoreIf Thats What You Were Intending On Doing.

My 1100 Box Was Left Too Long And Other Gears Were starting To Show Signs Of Pitting. Im Suspecting From The Bits Of Fifth Gear Floating Around The Box Was The Cause.

I Just Bought A Second Hand 1100 Cali Box And Swapped Them Into The 1000 Sport Case.

You Cant Just Use The Cali Case Without A Little Bit Of Milling Work On The Top Two Holes That Secure The Box To The Motor And The Four Hole Mounting Plate Boss On The Box.

Thanks for that, I've passed the info on to him..

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck, allow me a few hours and I'll pen a screed on my experiences with this. IMHO the early Spineys are some of the most infuriating models to work on simply because they aren't well thought out and everything is really cramped.

Pete

Woo hoo! Thanks for that, Pete.. 
 

[radguzzi]

Here's my recommendations:

I have a 100 more o-rings if anyone needs some. Free.

Are these O-Rings for the clutch rod...?   Are they replacements for the conical seals...? ? ?

I have to replace the rod on the '97 as she is victim of the soft tip from that era...  I know, I know, let's have your jokes please. 

 Seems that there was a batch of clutch rods that were not hardened to the proper Brinell hardness and they would wear rapidly until you had engagement all the time.  That is why I took this one off the road and put her in long term storage a bit back, coming back out now for this maintenance and paint.

On a slightly different subject, there were also soft tipped valves in the same model engine as I recall which would allow the clearance to change rapidly, fortunately mine does not show signs of that malady.

IMHO the early Spineys are some of the most infuriating models to work on simply because they aren't well thought out and everything is really cramped.

Pete

Great, looking forward to this job... 
 

[jwinwi]

FWIW... Transmission can be removed with engine and boomerangs in place. Others have mentioned that (10) clutch springs have to be glued to flywheel during clutch reassembly...

[John A]

Speaking of the ten springs, I use Barnett springs on the belief that they are "better" than the Guzzi springs. I don't recall what led to that belief, although some think it makes the lever pull too hard. I've not had a problem with that, however as I age the joints in my hands are worn out so a hydraulic clutch may be in my future.

[yogidozer]

FWIW... Transmission can be removed with engine and boomerangs in place. Others have mentioned that (10) clutch springs have to be glued to flywheel during clutch reassembly...

yes, you are correct. I have done it that way

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Are these O-Rings for the clutch rod...?   Are they replacements for the conical seals...? ? ?

Yes, the o-rings are for the clutch pushrod and are replacements for the conical seals. I've had leaks with the conical seals, but never with the o-ring stack.

[rocker59]

I'm pretty sure you can add a helical 5th and leave the straight-cut 1 through 4 gears in place.

Pete Roper will confirm..  I'm pretty sure he's done a few.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'm pretty sure you can add a helical 5th and leave the straight-cut 1 through 4 gears in place.

Pete Roper will confirm..  I'm pretty sure he's done a few.

I was thinking that my dusty synapses remembered something like that.. but I never filed that away because I thought I'd never be dealing with a Spot. 

[Wayne Orwig]

I've used the bonded and riveted plates on a few Calis now and like them. Plus I use the o-ring stack from Moto International.

When I did the clutch on my Centauro, I did a modified frame crab. I assume the Spot would be the same.

[Vasco DG]

They say a camel is a horse designed by a committee. In a lot of ways the early Spineys are a sort of camel of the Guzzi world, everything works but it doesn't look like the left hand knew what the right hand was doing when it was on the drawing board!

The Sport 'C' this is particularly true of. Everything is very tight around the back of the gearbox and swingarm which makes things like clutch adjustment a real pain in the arse but getting the gearbox out is a bit of a saga.

Start by taking all the wretched bodywork off and removing the batteries. Then you need to support the engine, remove the rear wheel, (In and of itself a pain in the arse as I think it's the Sport 'C' that has the weird two part wheel spindle. The bevelbox is best disconnect from the torque rod and this will allow the wheel and box to be removed as one after the brake is out of the way. Keep an eye out for spacers and such, I seem to remember there are a few.

Then you can disconnect the shock from the swingarm, pull the stub axles and drop the swingarm out from between the pork chops. After that the pinch bolts on the front UJ yoke are accessible!

Once that crap is out of the way you can tackle the pork chops themselves. All the bolts will be horribly corroded and a right royal pain in the arseto remove. Note also that one of them has an inadequate earth wire attatched to a horribly corroded eye that will almost certainly break off as you undo the nut and bolt it is installed on .

Be aware that the early, cast, pork chops are really quite fragile. If the bike has ever been dropped or you are unsure of its history I'd strongly suggest getting them crack tested while they are off. It is not unknown for them to fail suddenly under high load conditions, (ie, going fast!) if the bike has been dropped even though they may of had little or no visible signs of damage. Paranoid? Maybe slightly but if one goes the other follows instantly and the back wheel and swingarm falls off! Not good at speed!

From there there are two choices as to how to proceed. Option one is remove all the engine bolts etc. apart from the two on the front down tubes to the timing chest which can be loosened and with the front wheel off the frame can be crabbed. The only real issue with this is that the rear sub-frame is triangulated by the pork chops so it will tend to fold up on top of the spine. Be careful of wiring and such. The other alternative is disconnect everything and 'Wheelbarrow' the frame away. I can't remember if the airbox has to come off first or not.

Obviously you have to disconnect all the cables and wiring including the alternator but after that it's the same as any other big block + five speed set up.

Note that because it uses the Dodgyplex ignition system flywheel position is critical so mark it clearly with regard to its position on the crank.

In the gearbox throw away the ATN9 input and output shaft bearings and replace them with 3205 AC3 14 ball per race/serpentine metal cage ones. Examine all the pinions. 5th is usually the first to go closely followed by third and the primary input gear. If only fifth has gone you can replace it with a helically cut, five dog, fifth set from a late Cali 1100 but you'll need the 5th gear dog ring as well. If the other pinions or the clustershaft teeth are pitted you'll be much better off just buying a late model five speed off the Bay of Fleas and transplanting those internals into the Sport gearbox cases. Be aware though that the Sport may have a different design of needle roller on the back of the input and front of the output shafts to the Cali box. Of course you re-seal it and shim it up while you're in there.

I hope that helps?

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

Immensely. Thanks, Pete. 
Oh..

[voncrump]

Why bother with the crabbing business when it is easy to drop the motor and box out together. Then you can tilt it all forward to get the clutch springs to sit in place as you assemble the clutch. I am a motorcyle mechanic by trade and this is an easy motor to remove. Just the usual predictable process and then a bit of grunting to deal with the weight. When I refitted the motor/gearbox assembly I had a friend to give me a hand but I managed to get the thing together while he watched with a beer in his hand. I sat wooden shims made of bits of plywood under the sump and rocked the assembly back and forth while I added the plywood spacers and walked the assembly back up to the mounts. I used the solid centred sure flex bonded plates and they are working fine but they do have an earlier take up at the lever. The original plates fell to bits. The rivets fell out and the centres were ready to part company in the thin Spring metal part. My job was made easier by the fact that the bike has pod filters fitted.
Cheers, voncrump

[Vasco DG]

Did you miss the bit where I said there were two, (At least.) ways of going about this.

I wasn't saying there was a definitive way, just that those were the ways I'd done it. Fuque me drunk! You really can't win here can you? The constant trolling and vitriol gets really tiresome.

Pete

[Aaron D.]

Why bother with the crabbing business when it is easy to drop the motor and box out together. Then you can tilt it all forward to get the clutch springs to sit in place as you assemble the clutch. I am a motorcyle mechanic by trade and this is an easy motor to remove. Just the usual predictable process and then a bit of grunting to deal with the weight. When I refitted the motor/gearbox assembly I had a friend to give me a hand but I managed to get the thing together while he watched with a beer in his hand. I sat wooden shims made of bits of plywood under the sump and rocked the assembly back and forth while I added the plywood spacers and walked the assembly back up to the mounts. I used the solid centred sure flex bonded plates and they are working fine but they do have an earlier take up at the lever. The original plates fell to bits. The rivets fell out and the centres were ready to part company in the thin Spring metal part. My job was made easier by the fact that the bike has pod filters fitted.
Cheers, voncrump

I took a look at mine last night while out in the barn-it looked like it would just pretty much drop out the bottom?

[Vasco DG]

I took a look at mine last night while out in the barn-it looked like it would just pretty much drop out the bottom?

Aaron, it doesn't just 'Drop out the bottom', believe me.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Did you miss the bit where I said there were two, (At least.) ways of going about this.

I wasn't saying there was a definitive way, just that those were the ways I'd done it. Fuque me drunk! You really can't win here can you? The constant trolling and vitriol gets really tiresome.

Pete

Ah, com'on Pete.. I know Von Crump, and he was just giving me a different way to do it. I don't see any vitrol, and the last troll was hit with the ban hammer a month or so ago.. <shrug>

[Wayne Orwig]

I took a look at mine last night while out in the barn-it looked like it would just pretty much drop out the bottom?

You still need to put a lot of time into remove the air box off of the top to get the top transmission bolts out. (assuming the air box is still there)

[Aaron D.]

Still there, but yes, that's what I thought. I don't need a clutch in this one at the moment but the other things I've worked on on this have been pretty easy.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Time to add some to this thread. Left her Kid's place in Redondo Beach

and the Kid came down this week to work on his Spot. Fifth gear was toast, and 2&3 didn't look all that good either. Pete rummaged through his pile of munt  and sent some goodies my way when I was out in California. Unfortunately, he forgot to send the fifth gear shift dog.
He's old..   
Fortunately, when the Kid came down from Wisconsin, he had a low mileage Stone 5 speed in his trunk that a good friend had given him. (!) Gotta love Guzzi guys (and gals). 
It was a little different here in Indiana this morning.. here's the Kid's dawg Belle, enjoying 30 knot winds and blowing snow.. a good day to play Guzzi transmission fixer.. 

Started mixing/matching parts. Started out by shimming up the shift drum, using the really good tutorials by Pete and John Noble. We're airplane guys, and like to have "the book" in front of us. 

Made shims as necessary with my home made shim cutter.

Uh oh.. the layshaft bearing is .050" different in diameter. Drug out my Heat Gun From Hell, and warmed up the cases so the bearing races would fall out, and swapped them.

The neutral indicator is different, too.. played around using a little creative bending to make sure it would work.

The transmission parts Pete sent had an issue.  First gear had blown up. Of course it was usable with a little figuring out how all this stuff works and is assembled/disassembled. and changing out some stuff.
Would have worked, of course, but since he had a 2K mile transmission to scavenge parts from.. we continued fitting those up. We'll put the Pete parts in the Stone box, and have a transmission someone else can use.
Oh, NDTed and bead blasted pork chops while we were waiting for bearings that never showed up. 

Maybe tomorrow, we'll put the transmission together. At any rate, it was a *great* learning experience for both of us. All three transmissions are different in some way. Who would have thought? Brad said that he'd no longer worry about rebuilding a Guzzi transmission. "I could put these things together in my sleep, now."    A good day..

[Wayne Orwig]

The transmission parts Pete sent had an issue.  First gear had blown up. Of course it was usable with a little figuring out how all this stuff works and is assembled/disassembled. and changing out some stuff.

JB Weld...