Just received email from Triumph - has to be teaser for new Big Bonnie

[Lannis]

I'm going to side with Lannis on this one. <snapping suspenders> While I certainly appreciate the modern technology, when it goes udders skyward.. and it will, eventually.. it's horrendously expensive to fix IF the particular electronic gizmo is still being made 15 years down the road. I have a Sync module issue in my '12 Ford.. just out of warranty, and $650 to replace. A low production Italian motorcycle in a few years? I'll stick with Lannis' old SP.. 

Some technologies just reach a certain point where they really work in the real world, and beyond that, it's just a bit of refinement, the cost of which may outweigh the benefits by a considerable amount.

I might compare a Tonti or Loopframe Guzzi with a Colt M1911A1.    That gun is 104 years old, from the days when airplanes were made of cloth and sticks, cars didn't have electric starters, and movies didn't have sound.

But even though it's been 104 years, and there have been vast improvements in materials and chemistry and moving parts and electronics and everything else, and even though there are high-tech polymer guns with laser sights and electronic widgetry ....

... there are still people who depend on their gun for their living, and possibly to save their lives or those of others, who depend on a 1911 single-action automatic as their professional go-to sidearm.   

I'm sure that someone could prove, somehow, that a modern polymer gun of some sort is "Better" or "More Advanced" in every measurable way.   However, all things considered, those factors don't necessarily make it a more effective weapon when every factor including experience, availability of repair, parts, and tuning etc are considered ....

Lannis

[Kev m]

If you really think that Forbes articles and performance graphs and Google searches are going to tell me how much better a 2015 motorcycle is than a 1985 for what I need, then I'm afraid that your perspective as a professional technical writer has "skewed" your opinion quite a bit too.    That's only a fraction of what makes something "better", not by any means the whole story.

Lannis

That was a complete straw man argument. I haven't said a word about any of that.

My only discussion was with regards to Cam's declaring 60's or 70's as the pinnacle of functional/mechanical design and not limiting it to his preferences for such design or the aesthetics of it.

This isn't about like or want or prefer, just simple facts regarding capability/performance/reliability from an industry wide perspective (not looking at individual exceptional products or turds). Not looking at economics but looking at trends of power, performance, efficiency all along with gains in safety, emissions, reduced maintenance and greater dependability.

It's not about who CAN make an old bike last longer or fix it on the side of the road or who can get as good mpg on their run can Festiva cause they didn't want the ABS, airbags, or crash worthiness of the 2015.

It's simply a statement that even if you feel aesthetics peaked then the industry has kept moving forward mechanically in that they are capable of and generally produce.

[Kev m]

I'm going to side with Lannis on this one. <snapping suspenders> While I certainly appreciate the modern technology, when it goes udders skyward.. and it will, eventually.. it's horrendously expensive to fix IF the particular electronic gizmo is still being made 15 years down the road. I have a Sync module issue in my '12 Ford.. just out of warranty, and $650 to replace. A low production Italian motorcycle in a few years? I'll stick with Lannis' old SP.. 

You're siding with Lannis against no one. This is only tangentially related to my point.

[bad Chad]

At some point not too many years ago the first Retro styled vehicles started to show up.  Until then, as far as I am aware, motor vehicles had never been designed to resemble their early less advanced predecessors.   The same thing has happened to camping trailers, coffee makers, entire kitchens, cabinets, appliances and all, and I'm sure there are many other categories I am missing.

In a hundred years the big thing in personal space vehicles may be retro styled Space Shuttle looking craft?    Perhaps as some have said, certain technologies reach a pinnacle of style, a point at which essentially every doable variation has been tried out, and then settles down to what appeals to the eye best.

[Lannis]

At some point not too many years ago the first Retro styled vehicles started to show up.  Until then, as far as I am aware, motor vehicles had never been designed to resemble their early less advanced predecessors.   The same thing has happened to camping trailers, coffee makers, entire kitchens, cabinets, appliances and all, and I'm sure there are many other categories I am missing.

In a hundred years the big thing in personal space vehicles may be retro styled Space Shuttle looking craft?    Perhaps as some have said, certain technologies reach a pinnacle of style, a point at which essentially every doable variation has been tried out, and then settles down to what appeals to the eye best.

Some technologies reach a pinnacle of not only style but functionality (at least a local pinnacle).    The 1911A1 is an example - kitchen refrigerators are another.   In 1920 they were brand new and still looked like "iceboxes" - over the next 45 years they developed from round white things with mechanical handles and icy freezers, into the magnetically-closed frost-free items of the late 60s - and for 50 years now they haven't essentially changed.    Mick Jagger and Robert Plant and Roger Daltrey are still pulling the same crowds they pulled 50 years ago.

Orville Wright flew the very first airplane, and before he died he got to ride in a B47 jet bomber.    They went from powered kites to nuclear-armed jets in 45 years - but now for the last 60 years we've been using the B52 and we'll probably use it another 20 years at least.

The electronics world has changed enormously, though, and continues - Moore's Law might have an end but we haven't found it yet.

But cars, bikes, planes, guns, music?   Local peak might already have been passed ... !

Lannis 

[rocker59]

It's hard to beat the simple elegance of the 1911.

That John Browning was an amazing designer!

[Chuck in Indiana]

planes,

Gimme an old one.. 
 

[Chuck in Indiana]

It's hard to beat the simple elegance of the 1911.

That John Browning was an amazing designer!

There were some amazing mechanical ENGINEERS around the turn of the century. Seriously..

[Cam3512]

If some one offered me a FREE '70 Hemi 'cuda or a 2016 Hemi Challenger, I'd take the '70.  FREE '74 V7 Sport or a 2016 Guzzi V7, I'd take the Sport.  '66 Shelby fastback Mustang or a 2016 Mustang equivalant, I'll take the Shelby.  1911 Colt .45 or a Glock .45...   Anyone disagree?  If so, you're smokin' crack.

[Lannis]

If some one offered me a FREE '70 Hemi 'cuda or a 2016 Hemi Challenger, I'd take the '70.  FREE '74 V7 Sport or a 2016 Guzzi V7, I'd take the Sport.  '66 Shelby fastback Mustang or a 2016 Mustang equivalant, I'll take the Shelby.  1911 Colt .45 or a Glock .45...   Anyone disagree?  If so, you're smokin' crack.

I'll go you one better.

If someone offered me a FREE 2015 Ford Taurus OR a FREE 1970 Ford Fairlane, and I wasn't allowed to sell my choice but had to drive it, I'd choose the Fairlane ..... I JUST DON'T NEED all the stuff that the new cars come with.   I'm not some fairy-cake that has to be coddled with heated seats and GPS and power windows and power this and power that and electronic this and electronic that.   I just want to drive it, and stay out of the rain.    The barest, sparest car you can buy is a luxury condo compared to riding a motorcycle.   And riding a motorcycle is the standard by which I judge comfort and utility .... I'm a motorcyclist first and a car driver when I have to be.

Lannis

[Kev m]

If some one offered me a FREE '70 Hemi 'cuda or a 2016 Hemi Challenger, I'd take the '70.  FREE '74 V7 Sport or a 2016 Guzzi V7, I'd take the Sport.  '66 Shelby fastback Mustang or a 2016 Mustang equivalant, I'll take the Shelby.  1911 Colt .45 or a Glock .45...   Anyone disagree?  If so, you're smokin' crack.

My point wasn't about preference, but now that you mention it, I'm not sure I'd make any of the same choices as you. Well, maybe one or two. Definitely not the 4 wheel ones.

[SmithSwede]

1911 is too new fangled for me.  S&W DA revolver was the true pinnacle of handgun development.   And no, I'm not kidding.

Back to that Triumph.   Yes, it looks great from the angle that photograph was taken, which was carefully chosen. Can't see the radiator.  But from the front, it is painfully obvious that there is about 3 square feet of radiator.

One more random comment.  What's the big deal on dual front disk brakes?   I suppose they are important on a track bike to deal with fade, but I've never had fading issues in real life, spirited mountain riding, especially with a bike like a Guzzi with lots of engine braking.  Seems to me that extra disk and caliper is just needless increase in unsprung weight, more expense in brake pads, more hassle for brake bleeding, etc. 

[blackcat]

If some one offered me a FREE '70 Hemi 'cuda or a 2016 Hemi Challenger, I'd take the '70.  FREE '74 V7 Sport or a 2016 Guzzi V7, I'd take the Sport.  '66 Shelby fastback Mustang or a 2016 Mustang equivalant, I'll take the Shelby.  1911 Colt .45 or a Glock .45...   Anyone disagree?  If so, you're smokin' crack.

Of course I would take all of the older productions, but in terms of the newer auto's, they are much better in many ways including power and safety. The 2016 Barracuda will have an optional motor that is supposed to hit 600 hp.

[bad Chad]

Of course I would take all of the older productions, but in terms of the newer auto's, they are much better in many ways including power and safety. The 2016 Barracuda will have an optional motor that is supposed to hit 600 hp.

AMC is back???

[oldbike54]

If some one offered me a FREE '70 Hemi 'cuda or a 2016 Hemi Challenger, I'd take the '70.  FREE '74 V7 Sport or a 2016 Guzzi V7, I'd take the Sport.  '66 Shelby fastback Mustang or a 2016 Mustang equivalant, I'll take the Shelby.  1911 Colt .45 or a Glock .45...   Anyone disagree?  If so, you're smokin' crack.

 Depends , ya gonna drive that Hemi Cuda from 1970 , or just look at it ?

   Whee whee whee ,VROOM , vroom , cough cough , silence , whee whee whee , VROOM vroom , cough cough , silence . Followed by some choice expletives from the person behind the wheel who is running late for work 

  Dusty

[blackcat]

AMC is back???

1970 Javelin, nice on the outside.


Not a very good looking interior compared to what GM was doing in 1970.

[bpreynolds]

One more random comment.  What's the big deal on dual front disk brakes?   I suppose they are important on a track bike to deal with fade, but I've never had fading issues in real life, spirited mountain riding, especially with a bike like a Guzzi with lots of engine braking.  Seems to me that extra disk and caliper is just needless increase in unsprung weight, more expense in brake pads, more hassle for brake bleeding, etc.

I think for an experienced rider like yourself - who is very less likely to get himself into trouble - some of this may be true but in general, it would be difficult for me to disagree more.  Every front single bike I've ever owned (especially the 4 Californias I owned prior) needed assistance from the rear brake to stop in any sort of sudden, straight, safe way.  By themselves, for me at least, single disc bikes' front ends seem to squirm a great deal.  In fact, all those single disc bikes I owned when I first started riding actually taught me to be a better rider - even today whether I need it or not I almost always use both front and rear brakes concurrently.  In the past I owned both single disc front bikes and dual, swapping from the dual to the single the first stop I'd make would always remind me of the feel and safety differences of each.  But again, this is just me.

Depends , ya gonna drive that Hemi Cuda from 1970 , or just look at it ?

   Whee whee whee ,VROOM , vroom , cough cough , silence , whee whee whee , VROOM vroom , cough cough , silence . Followed by some choice expletives from the person behind the wheel who is running late for work 

  Dusty

This, this, and this. 

[rocker59]

The main thing, for street riders, that dual disks brings to the table is reduced effort.  The reduced effort is something anyone can benefit from.  Reduced effort and better feel.  The ability to stop aggressively with one or two fingers while enjoying excellent feedback is a good thing.

The other benefit, mainly for hard chargers and track days, is reduced heat and reduced fade.  Because the braking surface is doubled, the amount of heat generated is more easily dissipated.

The downside to dual disks is the increased unsprung weight, which can negatively effect suspension performance and steering feel.  That is why people like Buel have tried various single front brake options, even on high performance bikes.  In Buell's case, he got lighter weight, but the rim-mounted rotor increased Rotational Inertia, which was compesated for with very steep steering geometry.

Though not top shelf items, I would imagine that the new Triumph's dual disk front brakes have noticeably increased power and feel from the rather wimpy single unit that's been on the Bonnevilles for years.

Improvements are surely still possible.  Better rotors being the obvious first choice, based on photos I've seen.

[Kev m]

I suspect the unsprung weight means little on the street.

I agree with the advantages Rocker spells out.

In addition you also get longer time between maintenance (pass replacement). For instance my Jackal needed pads every time I replaced a rear tire (meaning front and rear pads every 10k). I think the front was over-worked on that bike. In contrast the Breva 1100 (on which I rarely used the rear brake, the duals in front were so good) never needed either in 17k miles.

And don't even get me started on Harleys with a single disc ugh.

Oh, and this might be vain, but I also prefer the look of a bike with duals. It's much more balanced and looks the business.

[oldbike54]

 OK Kev , "rear nectar" ???

  Dusty

[Joliet Jim]

AMC is back???

Barracuda = Plymouth

Re AMC,  I still think the Gremlin X was cool.

[Kev m]

OK Kev , "rear nectar" ???

  Dusty

I really don't know how the frickin phone got nectar from brake. 

[jas67]

...
In addition you also get longer time between maintenance (pass replacement). For instance my Jackal needed pads every time I replaced a rear tire (meaning front and rear pads every 10k). I think the front was over-worked on that bike. In contrast the Breva 1100 (on which I rarely used the rear brake, the duals in front were so good) never needed either in 17k miles.

I finally replaced the front pads on that B11 at 26k miles.

[tazio]

Barracuda = Plymouth

Re AMC,  I still think the Gremlin X was cool.

Most years of the Barracuda were cool too, although my old '65 was just funky..  Sorta like "rear nectar"

[Kev m]

I finally replaced the front pads on that B11 at 26k miles.

How many miles when you sold it?

[SmithSwede]

As to the comments about chain drive.  I agree that chains are vastly better than they used to be, and basically fine in normal usage.   Not necessarily a deal breaker on a bike you otherwise like. 

But I've been riding my chain drive Ninja two fiddy during our recent Texas downpours.   Got time today to check bike out for Monday commute.  The chain was basically orange with rust.   Guzzi shaft doesn't do that.   Belt drive doesn't do that. 

[canuguzzi]

As to the comments about chain drive.  I agree that chains are vastly better than they used to be, and basically fine in normal usage.   Not necessarily a deal breaker on a bike you otherwise like. 

But I've been riding my chain drive Ninja two fiddy during our recent Texas downpours.   Got time today to check bike out for Monday commute.  The chain was basically orange with rust.   Guzzi shaft doesn't do that.   Belt drive doesn't do that.

That orange rust on the outside isn't a worry, not even the slightest. A bit of lube, ride on.

In those downpours, everything steel on a bike is going to rust unless it is painted, plated or packed away, a lubed chain is the least of your worries. Just saying.

[rocker59]

As to the comments about chain drive.  I agree that chains are vastly better than they used to be, and basically fine in normal usage.   Not necessarily a deal breaker on a bike you otherwise like. 

But I've been riding my chain drive Ninja two fiddy during our recent Texas downpours.   Got time today to check bike out for Monday commute.  The chain was basically orange with rust.   Guzzi shaft doesn't do that.   Belt drive doesn't do that.

When you replace the chain, buy a nice one that's plated.  You won't have the rust "problem", anymore.

[jas67]

How many miles when you sold it?

28k.    I replaced them not long before I sold it.