Spot clutch issue?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, the Kid brought his carb Spot down with the clutch slipping. We pulled everything apart this morning.. pix coming.. and the clutch intermediate plate and drive plate look like this. Problem?
Should we do anything about it? I'm an airplane guy, and don't have to fool with clutches much. 

[oldbike54]

 Woof !

  Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hmmm..kinda cryptic..

[fotoguzzi]

Is that glazing from the friction plates? Maybe try brake cleaner?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I'd replace the intermediate plate (the one from Cycle Garden seems to be the best quality of those currently available) and use an abrasive disc in an angle die grinder to dress the surface of the cover/ring gear and pressure plate. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Is that glazing from the friction plates? Maybe try brake cleaner?

Discolored from being hot is my guess.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'd replace the intermediate plate (the one from Cycle Garden seems to be the best quality of those currently available) and use an abrasive disc in an angle die grinder to dress the surface of the cover/ring gear and pressure plate.

How about taking a cut off the intermediate plate on my surface grinder?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

How about taking a cut off the intermediate plate on my surface grinder?

I wouldn't want to make it any thinner. Already warp prone as it is.

[Curtis Harper]

Is the intermediate warped at all? If so, there is no hope for it. It's pretty thin to try to surface in any way. I've seen a heckuva lot worse and still running. Clutch is a clutch is a clutch as far as wear, it is directly affected by the operator. Looks like the bike has been enjoyed properly.

New frictions and the steel, set of springs and back together.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Is the intermediate warped at all? If so, there is no hope for it. It's pretty thin to try to surface in any way. I've seen a heckuva lot worse and still running. Clutch is a clutch is a clutch as far as wear, it is directly affected by the operator. Looks like the bike has been enjoyed properly.

New frictions and the steel, set of springs and back together.

Nope, it's not warped. Max wear is .003"
Thanks, Curtiss..

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Nope, it's not warped. Max wear is .003"
Thanks, Curtiss..

You could risk just dressing it and reusing it then. I *hate* tearing a Guzzi all back apart for clutch work a second time, so I go new instead of risking it. <shrug> 

[Aaron D.]

True, I'd just buy all the bits.

But what I REALLY want to see is the Sport transmission removal thread.

[Chuck in Indiana]

You could risk just dressing it and reusing it then. I *hate* tearing a Guzzi all back apart for clutch work a second time, so I go new instead of risking it. <shrug> 

Seriously, it wasn't much of a job to get the clutch out on the Spot. We were surprised at how easy it was. We were looking at it in two hours, including a visit from Ed the Rocket Scientist to look at the antique airplane project I have going on.. 
But.
I understand what you're saying. We won't be going back together with it tomorrow.. so probably should just order the plate. We'll open up the transmission.. when he gets back and a round touit.. he needs the experience of looking in a  Guzzi transmission..and make one order do the job. Maybe. 
"If you look for problems in an old machine, you *will* find them.." 
Chuck in Indiana

[Chuck in Indiana]

True, I'd just buy all the bits.

But what I REALLY want to see is the Sport transmission removal thread.

I took some pix, Aaron.. it's surprisingly easy. I'll probably post it tomorrow.

[Aaron D.]

It looks like it should be easier than a Tonti, but I was informed that I was mistaken.

So the breath it is baited.

[Chuck in Indiana]

baited.

So. Does it smell like worms or minnows?  <ducking and running>

[Aaron D.]

Yes, minnows. Glad you noticed.

[Vasco DG]

With the ring gear? If you can cut/grind the friction surface and then remove the same amount from the the mating surface to keep the depth intact it will be fine. The intermediate plates are so cheap I'd just throw one at it to save arseing about.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

When I get them like that, if they are not warped, I just clean them up.
I degrease them, then run. over them with Scotchbrite disks in and angle grinder.
http://www.amazon.com/3M-07480-Coarse-Surface-Conditioning/dp/B0002STR90

Those are also great for cleaning the spots off of a brake disk that make it grab (what a lot of people think is a warped disk).


If the clutch has slipped much, consider putting in new springs too, as the old ones may be weak.

[voncrump]

I suspect that you will post at least one photo like this.
It is an easy job to get these motor/box units out.
cheers, voncrump

[Chuck in Indiana]

So, the Kid brought his barn find (literally) early Carb Sport, S/N 00037 down for a little maintenance.

 It was in pretty rough shape. A bicyclist had darted in the previous owner's path..one thing after another happened, and it ended up laying on it's side on the barn floor for years.

Brad repaired it enough to get it on the road, and see if it was worth a restoration. It had huge main jets in it, 170s IIRC, and wouldn't run at WFO at all. We talked about it and decided to try 130s. Oh, yeah.. making lots of power, and the clutch is slipping now. I told him I'd had success at washing out the bell housing with mineral spirits, etc. So he gave that a go. Better, but no cigar. Just the same.. he really likes it. Sent me out on it yesterday morning, and I like it, too.  It's the first Spot I've ridden, and it's a hoot. Lighter than the later Spineys, and *very* mechanical. 
Our goal is to change the clutch stuff out, and have a look at the transmission. Fifth gear whines, although nothing like the Lario transmission I changed out.
Rolled it up on my cheap HF lift, and 30 minutes later..

Time to make a decision. Drop the "motive unit" out the bottom, or pull the bike off the top? Since we were inspecting, too, we thought it would be a good idea to pull the wheel, drive box, etc. and have a look at the U joints, too. Decided to take the bike off. I already had "the box" that I used on the Aero Lario, so lifted the bike up and slid it under the pan.

There is a fair amount of what I call "afterthought engineering" involved with these early Sports.  There's the weird 2 piece axle, and places where stock parts have been cut "She's a no going to fit in there.." "Just cut it away.." "That'll be too weak.." " Weld on a brace, Luigi.."  but it all manages to work.
At this point, we'd unhooked the simple electricals, cables, etc. Nothing fancy on this bike.. and all the bolts that hold the Motive unit to the bike. AeroQroil made short work of corroded bolts,etc. but there were no frozen fasteners. 

Drove out the last bolt with an ejector pin.. (moldmaker stuff)

and that was it.
He got on one side, I on the other, and we simply pulled the pin, picked it up, sat it on the front wheel, and rolled it back to the waiting saw horse.

I love the simplicity and elegant design of the Guzzi powerplant/transmission..

Drained the transmission oil through a doubled paint filter..no debris..

and found the discolored stuff already pictured, and trashed clutch plates.
Total time 2 hours. I told Brad that it was easier than I expected, and he said, "Yeah, but there were two of us that sorta have a clue.."  although neither of us had done this before.
One guy could have done it, but it would have required a cherry picker to get the bike up and off.
Naturally, it'll take quite a bit longer to put it back together..

[Aaron D.]

Thank you!!

It pretty much confirms what I have thought. Frankly, so far most things on these bikes are pretty easy to access-this operation was the one thing I haven't had to do.

130 mains worked? I'm a little surprised. I'll have to give that a go if I have something close, I'm on 160s that came with it, though I've changed out everything else. I thought I was going pretty good too..

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thank you!!

It pretty much confirms what I have thought. Frankly, so far most things on these bikes are pretty easy to access-this operation was the one thing I haven't had to do.

130 mains worked? I'm a little surprised. I'll have to give that a go if I have something close, I'm on 160s that came with it, though I've changed out everything else. I thought I was going pretty good too..

My pleasure, Aaron. Yeah, he said it was pig rich at WFO. After riding it yesterday, I think it needs larger idle jets. It feels lean until about 3K rpm, then takes off. When I came back, I told him I thought it needed the clip on the needle moved down. He said it was already on the bottom. I don't know what is in the carbs, but gave him Ed's 40 recipe. Still needs some sorting, but makes the horizon come at you at a pretty good rate.  Fun bike.

[Bromanking]

Are you sure you haven't got oil leaking from the rear main seal on the clutch plates ? I would replace that seal and also the transmission input shaft seal since you already have it apart.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Are you sure you haven't got oil leaking from the rear main seal on the clutch plates ? I would replace that seal and also the transmission input shaft seal since you already have it apart.

The rear main wasn't leaking, apparently, but we changed it out anyway. Luigi had forgotten to put permatex on the bottom two bearing flange bolts, though. May have leaked there. Planning on new bearings and seals in the transmission, depending on what we find. Aaron has already sent me o rings for the pushrod. Thanks.

[Wayne Orwig]

130 mains worked? I'm a little surprised. I'll have to give that a go if I have something close, I'm on 160s that came with it, though I've changed out everything else. I thought I was going pretty good too..

130 sounds small. Chuck, is the air filter in good shape?

[Aaron D.]

A rear main leak could only contaminate the clutch if truly massive amounts of oil came out. I can't imagine a clutch slipping form that without the possibility of engine failure.

[Chuck in Indiana]

130 sounds small. Chuck, is the air filter in good shape?

I saved this from a few years ago, Wayne.. <shrug>

Quote from: ed@guzzitech.com on July 22, 2011, 08:09:57 PM
The rich running comes from terrible stock jetting. Euro jetting is terrible as well.

I have a jetting recipe to fix these bikes.

K4 needle, bottom clip
128 mains
68 idle
50/3 slide
265 atomizers

The most important thing is the atomizer and needle combo.  Good luck.

Ed Milich

Ed, I found your LMIV jetting page a couple of years ago and rejetted my LMIV to match.  What a difference over stock jetting or the mess I'd backed myself into trying to sort it out.  I was living at about 2,000' altitude at the time, now I'm back about 300'.  Not much adjustment needed so I'm leaving it alone.  Plugs are still a light to medium brown and it pulls hard all the way up the tach.

Thanks!

Tobit

[oldbike54]

 Woof woof !

  Dusty

[Aaron D.]

Are you planning on pulling the transmission cover?

I've heard many, um, things about 5th gear, many of which may be overstated. It would be fun to see..I know you mentioned a 5th gear sound (though they really do all do that, sir) which might be normal, or a bearing-or some might say teeth.