What the V9 tells me about Moto Guzzi's future

[Travlr]

Piaggio could have introduced the new midsize line with a 75 hp. V9 Cafe Racer.
It would have created a lot of excitement for the new line.

Instead they chose to invest their development dollars a 55 hp Sportster clone.

What does that tell me about Guzzi's future under Piaggio?

1. They are following the(very successful) HD business model.  Tradition, cruisers, low tech.

2. This is a world wide strategy, not a USA strategy.  Challenge  HD in the India and Chinese market
where HD just introduced the 500/750 models.  Low tech sells well there.  Out cruiser HD in Europe
with the 1400 line.  Mostly forget the USA where HD reigns supreme.

3. You've probably seen your last Guzzi sport bike.  That goes to Aprilia.

4. The CARC bikes are likely done for.  I see little room for something between the 900 and 1400.
Drop the sport tourer and replace it with a 1400 based touring bike.  Replace the Griso with a 1400 based
power cruiser.  Let the Capo be the adventure bike for Piaggio or do a V9 Stelvio.

I don't have a crystal ball, but when a company spends millions to develop a low tech sportster clone, it tells you something.

Mike

[jas67]

1. They are following the(very successful) HD business model.  Tradition, cruisers, low tech.

Since when has Guzzi ever been about high tech?

3. You've probably seen your last Guzzi sport bike.  That goes to Aprilia.

 :1:

4. The CARC bikes are likely done for.  I see little room for something between the 900 and 1400.
Drop the sport tourer and replace it with a 1400 based touring bike.  Replace the Griso with a 1400 based
power cruiser. 

I can definitely see both happening.

By 2017, Guzzi will have two platforms, the 850(V9) and 1400.

Let the Capo be the adventure bike for Piaggio or do a V9 Stelvio.

I don't see a V9 Stelvio happening.    Piaggio already have a light/mid sized ADV bike, the Aprilia Dorsoduro.

[blackcat]

3. You've probably seen your last Guzzi sport bike. 

Yep, my next new bike will likely not be a Guzzi based on the current direction of management.

[Daniel Kalal]

...Sportster clone...

It's far from being that.  To see what they have in mind, you need only go down the autostrada a bit and look at the recent (and expanding) air-cooled Scrambler line of models from Ducati.  Horsepower is not what's in play there, either.

[Kev m]

It's far from being that.  To see what they have in mind, you need only go down the autostrada a bit and look at the recent (and expanding) air-cooled Scrambler line of models from Ducati.  Horsepower is not what's in play there, either.

I don't disagree, until you get to the last sentence. IIRC the Scrambler is putting down 2/4 miles in the mid to high 11 second range, quicker than the 796 Monster.

I'm not at my desk, but wanted to say 75 hp or close to that at the rear wheel.

[oldbike54]

I don't disagree, until you get to the last sentence. IIRC the Scrambler is putting down 2/4 miles in the mid to high 11 second range, quicker than the 796 Monster.

I'm not at my desk, but wanted to say 75 hp or close to that at the rear wheel.

 Damn , that IS fast  I think Deke is referring to the fact that the scramblers aren't as fast as the Duc sport bikes .

 Dusty

[Daniel Kalal]

I don't disagree, until you get to the last sentence....

I'm going by their marketing campaign, which is all about young attractive people having a good time in attractive Italian places and not about power and smoke and noise and long black marks on the highway (remember Honda's V65 advertisements?)

[Kev m]

Oh I absolutely agree and I think it's a good strategy (even if I don't remember the Honda ads in question).

But I've been making that comparison for a while.

Actually I've been talking about the similarities and attraction of a number of basic, customizable, entry-level priced bikes from marques with a Heritage to sell:

Sportster
Bonnie
Scrambler
V7 (and now V9)

Maybe even the Scout and Bolt, but that's stretching it.

[Daniel Kalal]

...it's a good strategy...

by the way...  My name in lights (or at least as close as it ever will be).  That's the CEO of Ducati (Claudio Domenicali) on the left with Troy Baliss at yesterday's announcements of two new Scrambler models.  Keep your fingers crossed for something like real support for flat track racing by Ducati.

[Aaron D.]

Ok you got me, why is your name on Troy's leathers?

[Daniel Kalal]

Ok you got me, why is your name on Troy's leathers?

Because Troy is wearing the leathers he used when he rode a Ducati in 2015 for the LBM flat track team as a teammate with Johnny Lewis--that is, he did as long as he wasn't out breaking bones (he had a rough year).  Likely the Ducati folks scrutinized the company names on Troy's suit and just shrugged their shoulders at that one.

In a backwards way, the new scrambler flat tracker is styled from the actual flat track bike (which, in turn was styled in paint by the first scrambler models).

[oldbike54]

 Deke , you failed to mention your sponsorship of the LBM race team .

  Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

I think he mentioned it in passing one time.. 

[Guzzistaracing]

I am afraid that this is just � sign, Moto Guzzi  is not going to be my next Bike. � 850 engine with 55 hp when my old Griso 850 had 75? They are going to loose customers om this dissepointment!!!!

[oldbike54]

I am afraid that this is just � sign, Moto Guzzi  is not going to be my next Bike. � 850 engine with 55 hp when my old Griso 850 had 75? They are going to loose customers om this dissepointment!!!!

 Half of MG's sales are the 40 some odd HP V7 , how is a 50 some odd HP engine going to harm sales?

  Dusty

[Guzzistaracing]

Half of MG's sales are the 40 some odd HP V7 , how is a 50 some odd HP engine going to harm sales?

  Dusty

Have you seen what Thriumph has rolled out? And they are not the only one.

[Chuck in Indiana]

As I've mentioned before, I'm an antiquer. I *love* the history of Guzzi, and their involvement on the cutting edge of technology at the time. I feared the worst with the Piaggio takeover, and it is transpiring. Give Aprillia the sport stuff, and let Guzzi be the Italian Harley. A V9 LeMans would have gotten me to pry open my wallet. I'm now officially part of the problem. 

[oldbike54]

Have you seen what Thriumph has rolled out? And they are not the only one.

 Yes , but the old Bonnie was selling well , and it wasn't a fast bike either . Even the new 1200 isn't fast by modern standards . There is a whole class of young buyer that isn't interested in huge HP figures .

  Dusty

[Guzzistaracing]

The new engine is a boat anchor. No float, no future! It is just here because the 750 mill is ready for retirement. Piaggio is looking at their toes in stead og looking at the Horizont. We need something else.

[jas67]

The new engine is a boat anchor. No float, no future! It is just here because the 750 mill is ready for retirement. Piaggio is looking at their toes in stead og looking at the Horizont. We need something else.

If the 850 was 75 HP, it would likely be water cooled, because I don' think they can make 75 HP from an air cooled 850 and still meet the ever tightening emissions requirements.

If they did that, then, everyone here would lament that it isn't air cooled.

Can't win.

[Guzzistaracing]

If the 850 was 75 HP, it would likely be water cooled, because I don' think they can make 75 HP from an air cooled 850 and still meet the ever tightening emissions requirements.

If they did that, then, everyone here would lament that it isn't air cooled.

Can't win.

Water cooling is the only way to go. Why not, are you all content riding bikes with 45+ hp????

[oldbike54]

The new engine is a boat anchor. No float, no future! It is just here because the 750 mill is ready for retirement. Piaggio is looking at their toes in stead og looking at the Horizont. We need something else.

 So what you are saying is that YOU need a higher HP engine . That is fine , but the choices for fast bikes is vast, and while it would be cool to see MG produce a 100 HP standard , you can't blame them for surveying the market and deciding to build what is selling . HD has a huge market share , of which only an exceedingly small part is the V-Rod .

  Dusty

[jas67]

Water cooling is the only way to go. Why not, are you all content riding bikes with 45+ hp????

Often time yes, I am, as are many others on this forum.   For those times I'm not, I've got my other 400ish pound air-cooled Vtwin of similar displacement, the Monster 796 (87 HP @ crank).     I've ridden bikes that are much faster (160 HP, 480# bike, 145 HP, 450# bike).   Yeah, I was impressed, but, I don't need it, esp. on the street.  The M796 is modest by many people's standards, but, it keeps me entertained just fine.

Many people are satisfied with the performance of the V7 and bikes of similar performance.   If they weren't, then the V7, Bonneville, Sportster 883, Bolt, etc wouldn't be such good sellers.   Not everyone wants or needs a Super Bike.

[Guzzistaracing]

What I see is no future for this engine. Why develop � new engine when you know it is not meeting and have no chance og meeting euro5 or euro6

[rboe]

First, Guzzi used to be all about high tech cutting edge bikes; then they got out of racing and that pretty much went to hell.

I think (and this is just like all the hand wringing that went on when the 1400 was introduced) we need to hold off burying the V9 until we've had a chance to ride it. It could be very premature. And we need to see how it does in the market place. We're not the market. Our future is very limited compared to the 20 and 30 somethings coming into the market.  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

[jas67]

What I see is no future for this engine. Why develop � new engine when you know it is not meeting and have no chance og meeting euro5 or euro6

Who says it won't meet euro5 or euro6?

I'm sure they'll keep developing it.   Maybe the architecture has room to be bored/stroked to 1,000CC, in which case, they'll just make it bigger as they do thinks to make it meet emissions.

The oil cooling, if done right with a thermostat could be as effective as water cooling at regulating engine temperature, allowing it to be operated more efficiently and cleanly.

[jas67]

I think (and this is just like all the hand wringing that went on when the 1400 was introduced) we need to hold off burying the V9 until we've had a chance to ride it. It could be very premature.

 :1:

I certainly wouldn't have bought the V7 on it's HP numbers.   Aside from it's stunning good looks, it takes actually riding a V7 to appreciate it.  Even then, there are those who would not be impressed or even like it.   Those people are not the target market for the V7 or V9.   I'll bet the V9 is every bit as enjoyable to ride as our beloved V7's.

And we need to see how it does in the market place. We're not the market. Our future is very limited compared to the 20 and 30 somethings coming into the market.  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

 :1:

[Dogwalker]

If the 850 was 75 HP, it would likely be water cooled, because I don' think they can make 75 HP from an air cooled 850 and still meet the ever tightening emissions requirements.

Not with pushrods and rockers.
But, considering that the 1200 (really a 1151) make 100 PS at the rear wheel, an 850 with lifted camshaft can make 74, and have 82 written in the specs (and those are conservative estimates, since, reducing the displacement, specific power tend to increase).
The 1200 4V Guzzi will probably not be adapted Euro-4, but the BMW oilhead of the R Nine T will, and has similar displacement and power output.
So the Ducati 800 of the Scrambler (75 PS specs, and is an 800 2V).
So is not impossible.

[Guzzistaracing]

No way are they going to meet euro5 or 6 with an aircooled engine. You are looking at 1000ccm and 40hp at best, do not think that is even realistic.

[jas67]

So the Ducati 800 of the Scrambler (75 PS specs, and is an 800 2V).

The 800 in the Scrambler is based on the 796 motor, which was spec'd at 87 PS.   That makes me wonder if the power loss was only due to the desire to retune for better low end torque, or due to tuning changes to meet emissions.