What the V9 tells me about Moto Guzzi's future

[oldbike54]

 Pete  , I think he is referring to the engine alone , not the whole bike .

  Dusty

[mwrenn]

Whats wrong with water cooling? Guzzi used to have inline threes, Superchargers, desmodronic valves and even a V8. Why should they be confined to an air cooled V2? They could make a longitudinal water cooled V4 street fighter or a big naked displacement V2 torque monster V7-simulacrum. Moto Guzzi's history is about pushing the limit not building a bike for the mature crowd who has settled that 55hp is "all you need". By all means make one or two of those models. But for gods sake give us something that snorts and stalls and tries to take your head off...

PS: if BMW can get 110hp out of an air cooled twin (R9T) so can guzzi...

Or you can use what Guzzi makes and make it your own...V7 with 54.99 RWHP....43 Ft/lbs  of torque...
A work in progress...looking to be at 60+ when done.
I love the V9 concept.  What a good platform to hot rod....

[Vasco DG]

Remember, I've owned both. I no longer own a Cali 14.

The mapping of the 1400's single RBW throttle body with the sophistication of the 7SM means that in stock trim, apart from the stupid, shaky, idle is superior and the twin plugs and extra 150cc make for a torquey motor. In comparison as rock Griso feels feeble, especially at the bottom end in the closed loop area. That is easily and cheaply fixed and the 1200 gives nothing away to the 1400 apart from weight, handling and range.

Pete

[oldbike54]

Remember, I've owned both. I no longer own a Cali 14.

The mapping of the 1400's single RBW throttle body with the sophistication of the 7SM means that in stock trim, apart from the stupid, shaky, idle is superior and the twin plugs and extra 150cc make for a torquey motor. In comparison as rock Griso feels feeble, especially at the bottom end in the closed loop area. That is easily and cheaply fixed and the 1200 gives nothing away to the 1400 apart from weight, handling and range.

Pete

 OK , so why wouldn't the 1400 work in a standard or Norge type of MC ? Can it be made to pass upcoming emission regs ?

  Dusty

[Vasco DG]

The engine will fit. You'd need to either go to twin TB's or redesign the frame and running gear to get it to work. It's not the motor per-se, it's the ancillaries that will cause the headaches. You could dump the shitty 'Toaster' grills for starters. They're utterly pointless.

Pete

[Scorpione]

Guzzi is fast becoming a joke with its piss-poor power.

The new Yamaha XSR900, with similar looks (so should appeal to same market?) will kick the sh1t outta the V9.
113bhp?



http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2015/november/yamaha-xsr900/

[oldbike54]

The engine will fit. You'd need to either go to twin TB's or redesign the frame and running gear to get it to work. It's not the motor per-se, it's the ancillaries that will cause the headaches. You could dump the shitty 'Toaster' grills for starters. They're utterly pointless.

Pete

 If you were going to guess , will Guzzi redesign the ancillaries or build an entire new platform ? Aren't you and Mark working on a hot rod 1400 ?

  Dusty

[oldbike54]

Guzzi is fast becoming a joke with its piss-poor power.

The new Yamaha XSR900, with similar looks (so should appeal to same market?) will kick the sh1t outta the V9.
113bhp?



http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2015/november/yamaha-xsr900/

 Guzzi has never tried to compete on HP , and if you had been paying attention you would know that .

  Dusty

[Vasco DG]

If you were going to guess , will Guzzi redesign the ancillaries or build an entire new platform ? Aren't you and Mark working on a hot rod 1400 ?

  Dusty

Not worth the time and $$$. When I can pick up a wreck for peanuts we'll have a play. Until then? No point. The 1200 is fantastic.

Pete

[Scorpione]

Guzzi has never tried to compete on HP , and if you had been paying attention you would know that .

  Dusty

Thanks, but I do not require you to approve or disapprove every one of my opinions on this board. Also, I do not appreciate you feeling the need to ride me on this board, ok?

My point is that it can't compete. Only old farts would consider buying the slug that is the V9 over a direct competitor like the Yamaha, most likely similarly priced too.

The Yamaha will take the sales for those who like power
The Triumph Street Twin will take the sales of those who want retro
The Ducati will take sales of the v twin set

The slug that is the V9 Guzzi will trail along behind.

All this is of course only my opinion, which I am hope I am still allowed here?

[Vasco DG]

The 'Power' issue is, at least to me, irrelevant. If I want a more powerful bike there are many out there. What lets the V9 down is that it has what is probably a very nice motive package, then it is all thrown under a bus by putting it in a crappy frame with antediluvian suspension only one step removed from an Egyptian chariot of four thousand years ago. THAT is what I find unconscionable.

And how long have we, the 'Faithful' been waiting for a Nuovo LeMans/Daytona/MGS-02? Much too bloody long is the answer! Instead of something that keen riders have been gagging for we get this pair of insipid 'Lifestyle Accessories'. It really is the pits.

Pete

[jas67]

The 800CC Ducati air-cooled, 400+-pound Scrambler puts out 75 HP.

And the earlier version of that motor in the Monster 796 puts out 87 HP.   In fact, it is possible that the 12 HP drop from the M796 application to the Scrambler could be due to tighter emissions controls.

I guess I should have been more specific, and specified that an 75 HP 850cc pushrod motor that doesn't have Desmodronic valves and meets Euro 4 (and likely Euro 5) would likely be water cooled.

[jas67]

The 'Power' issue is, at least to me, irrelevant. If I want a more powerful bike there are many out there. What lets the V9 down is that it has what is probably a very nice motive package, then it is all thrown under a bus by putting it in a crappy frame with antediluvian suspension only one step removed from an Egyptian chariot of four thousand years ago. THAT is what I find unconscionable.

And how long have we, the 'Faithful' been waiting for a Nuovo LeMans/Daytona/MGS-02? Much too bloody long is the answer! Instead of something that keen riders have been gagging for we get this pair of insipid 'Lifestyle Accessories'. It really is the pits.

Pete

IMHO, the two V9 models are aimed squarely at the U.S. market, where "Lifestyle Accessories" out sell performance bikes 10:1.   You can't blame Piaggio for trying to go after some of that market.   They are a business, and need to make money to survive.

As for the "antediluvian suspension" it is plenty good for the type of riding that most people (at least in the U.S.) do, esp. if you upgrade the rear shocks, even to a pair of $400 Ikons.

In fact, there are some, myself, and Kev M. included, for whom this, along with the modest power output, are able to "slow down" and enjoy the ride without having to go through each corner faster and faster.   I have bikes with more power and better suspensions that I enjoy riding on the twisty mountain rides.  But, the V7 serves the purposes that I bought it for just fine, and looks good doing it.

Remember, the largest selling segment in the U.S. (where I think the V9 is targeted) is "Low" 800+ lb. cruisers with very little ground clearance, and ponderous handling.
 
I think the V9 bikes will sell just fine.

As for the Nuovo LeMans/Daytona/MGS-02?    It's been said before, it ain't happening.  Aprilia are Piaggio's sporting brand.    If you want that, pick up an RSV4 or a Tuano.

[Dogwalker]

I'm not a fan ot twin shocks, but the antedeluvian suspension is what Triumph will put, in 2016, not only on the Street Twin, but on the T120 and on the Thruxton bar the R, other than what the direct competitors ot the V9, Sportster and Bolt, use.
Guzzi, at least, use better brakes.

[BRIO]

Guzzi has never tried to compete on HP , and if you had been paying attention you would know that .

  Dusty

Dusty, that sentence is incorrect. I went to the museum in Lario last month and the main theme was competitiveness and speed.

[leafman60]

Well, the merits of the new Guzzi and the machines currently produced will be judged by the market.

Sales will tell the story.

[boatdetective]

The 'Power' issue is, at least to me, irrelevant. If I want a more powerful bike there are many out there. What lets the V9 down is that it has what is probably a very nice motive package, then it is all thrown under a bus by putting it in a crappy frame with antediluvian suspension only one step removed from an Egyptian chariot of four thousand years ago. THAT is what I find unconscionable.

And how long have we, the 'Faithful' been waiting for a Nuovo LeMans/Daytona/MGS-02? Much too bloody long is the answer! Instead of something that keen riders have been gagging for we get this pair of insipid 'Lifestyle Accessories'. It really is the pits.

Pete

:1:  I have, and will continue to, derided HD for building overpriced, under engineered "lifestyle accessories". I'm not going to be a hypocrite and give Guzzi a pass when they sit on their haunches and launch a vanilla machine that does nothing to advance the breed. Jas, I can have a great time riding my exGF's Vespa. That doesn't mean we should all be riding Vespasi.

Scorpione- don't let Dusty's pokes get you bent out of shape. He didn't mean nothin by it. BTW, I couldn't agree with you more- the Yamaha XSR900 looks like a fantastic bike. ...and the TZ color scheme ???  Faggedaboudit! Smart move, Yaha.

[jas67]

Jas, I can have a great time riding my exGF's Vespa. That doesn't mean we should all be riding Vespasi.

You totally mis-read my post.   I was in no way implying that just because I (and others) appreciate the V7 for what it is that EVERYONE should be riding a V7.  I was just trying to demonstrate that not all-out-performance is not the priority for many buyers, and that many buyers actually appreciate many types of bikes (which is why I can't live with just one).   I was also explaining why Moto Guzzi is making the V9, and that while it isn't the type of bike many of us want, it may still be a good thing for Moto Guzzi to do.   If Moto Guzzi no longer makes a bike you want, there are many other brands to choose from.

[PeteS]

So everyone agrees Guzzi does not make high horsepower bikes but why can't they make an engine today that at least matches the horsepower of the ones thay made 40 years ago?
The V7 Sport made more than the V7 of today and the if this 900 only makes 55 as some say its far less than my 850 LM which makes 62 at the rear wheel, dyno tested. This with a nearly stock engine only blue printed. Where are they measuring the 55 HP? If its at the crank then its even more pathetic.
A four valve with separate intake fueling should easily make 75 HP at the rear wheel with modern head design and fuel maps.

Pete

[oldbike54]

Thanks, but I do not require you to approve or disapprove every one of my opinions on this board. Also, I do not appreciate you feeling the need to ride me on this board, ok?

My point is that it can't compete. Only old farts would consider buying the slug that is the V9 over a direct competitor like the Yamaha, most likely similarly priced too.

The Yamaha will take the sales for those who like power
The Triumph Street Twin will take the sales of those who want retro
The Ducati will take sales of the v twin set

The slug that is the V9 Guzzi will trail along behind.

All this is of course only my opinion, which I am hope I am still allowed here?

 Stop constantly insulting everyone and you are entitled to any opinion you like .

  Dusty

[oldbike54]

Dusty, that sentence is incorrect. I went to the museum in Lario last month and the main theme was competitiveness and speed.

 And how long has it been since that was relevant ? MG's heyday was the early 1970's , mostly built on the sales of loop framers . Look , no one is suggesting that MG shouldn't build a sporting motorbike , but to believe they can compete with the Japanese , BMW , Triumph , or the other two Italian companies in the FAST bike market is dreaming . Also , to suggest the introduction of a motorbike like the V9 that will probably sell in decent numbers will destroy Guzzi , or tarnish its image seems off the mark . They are a company , a very small company , they need to make money or the marque will disappear .

  Dusty

[jackson]

My youngest son is 33 years old and he rides.  Last year, he moved from sport bikes to a Harley dresser.  He & I have had many conversations re. Moto Guzzi and why I like them and he doesn't.  He and many others from his generation see Guzzi as an "old man's bike" and have zero interest in owning one.  He also doesn't like the FACT that there are so few dealers who sell & maintain them.  He works in the IT industry.

[oldbike54]

My youngest son is 33 years old and he rides.  Last year, he moved from sport bikes to a Harley dresser.  He & I have had many conversations re. Moto Guzzi and why I like them and he doesn't.  He and many others from his generation see Guzzi as an "old man's bike" and have zero interest in owning one.  He also doesn't like the FACT that there are so few dealers who sell & maintain them.  He works in the IT industry.

 And Harley dressers are a young man's bike 

  Dusty

[Loftness]

Thanks, but I do not require you to approve or disapprove every one of my opinions on this board. Also, I do not appreciate you feeling the need to ride me on this board, ok?

My point is that it can't compete. Only old farts would consider buying the slug that is the V9 over a direct competitor like the Yamaha, most likely similarly priced too.

The Yamaha will take the sales for those who like power
The Triumph Street Twin will take the sales of those who want retro
The Ducati will take sales of the v twin set

The slug that is the V9 Guzzi will trail along behind.

All this is of course only my opinion, which I am hope I am still allowed here?

The problem is that your opinion isn't based on anything concrete but you're spewing it out like it's fact.  I haven't sold a V7 or V7II to a single 'old fart'....why would the V9 be any different?  There are *many* reasons why someone would choose a V9 over this Yamaha, or a Triumph (which more than one person has traded in to me for a V7 btw), or a Ducati.  That's a fact. 

[Lcarlson]

Young men's fancy for Harley dressers notwithstanding, I'm betting the folks in Mandello didn't develop the 1400 motor just for cruiser duty, although that was a logical place to start. It is a really versatile powerplant (shaky idle, which I consider a feature not a bug, included). I'm betting we see it in more than one non-cruiser iteration down the road a bit.

[rocker59]

And how long has it been since that was relevant ? MG's heyday was the early 1970's , mostly built on the sales of loop framers . Look , no one is suggesting that MG shouldn't build a sporting motorbike , but to believe they can compete with the Japanese , BMW , Triumph , or the other two Italian companies in the FAST bike market is dreaming . Also , to suggest the introduction of a motorbike like the V9 that will probably sell in decent numbers will destroy Guzzi , or tarnish its image seems off the mark . They are a company , a very small company , they need to make money or the marque will disappear .

  Dusty

Guzzi pulled the plug on factory race teams in 1957.

In the 1970s, 80s, 90s, and 00s, there were privateer efforts with V7 Sports, 850 and 1000 LeManses, Daytona 1000s, MGS01s. 

Guzzi has a fairly good presence in AHRMA.  There's usually always a few spine frame racers there, and a  few Tontis.

The last big deal in Guzzi racing was Dr. John's endurance championship in the late 1980s.

[jas67]

So everyone agrees Guzzi does not make high horsepower bikes but why can't they make an engine today that at least matches the horsepower of the ones thay made 40 years ago?
The V7 Sport made more than the V7 of today and the if this 900 only makes 55 as some say its far less than my 850 LM which makes 62 at the rear wheel, dyno tested. This with a nearly stock engine only blue printed. Where are they measuring the 55 HP? If its at the crank then its even more pathetic.

The answer is simple: emissions requirements.    That, and Guzzi is trying to stay traditional by not going over to water cooling.
Oh, and, as has been discussed before on this very forum, the public HP numbers for the V7 Sport and other bikes of that era (850LM included) were inflated.   Typical real world HP for a V7 Sport is 40 at the rear wheel, which is about the same as a 1TB (2013 and newer) V7.  AND, that V7 sport puts out WAY more harmful emissions.

A four valve with separate intake fueling should easily make 75 HP at the rear wheel with modern head design and fuel maps.

Pete

Absolutely!    The BMW F800GT engine is 798cc twin, so, only slightly larger than the V7, and slightly smaller than the V9.
It is a four valve/cylinder water cooled engine that makes 90 HP.    It can be done with air cooling too.   The Monster 796 has an 803cc air cooled desmodronic valve actuation.   It makes 87 HP, and likely doesn't meet Euro 4, and definitely not Euro 5 emissions.

It likely just isn't possible to get more power out of a simple air cooled 2 valve pushrod V-twin.   Guzzi is sticking with this type of engine, because it keeps with tradition, and also good enough for the intended market.

The target market for these bikes could care less that they make only 50 or 55 HP (crank HP).   If they cared so much about HP numbers, they'd be shopping high powered sport bikes, or 1,800cc + behemoths.

[BRIO]

And how long has it been since that was relevant ? MG's heyday was the early 1970's , mostly built on the sales of loop framers . Look , no one is suggesting that MG shouldn't build a sporting motorbike , but to believe they can compete with the Japanese , BMW , Triumph , or the other two Italian companies in the FAST bike market is dreaming . Also , to suggest the introduction of a motorbike like the V9 that will probably sell in decent numbers will destroy Guzzi , or tarnish its image seems off the mark . They are a company , a very small company , they need to make money or the marque will disappear .

  Dusty

You can draw a parallel to Alfa Romeo. One of the oldest most revered racing marques in history who also went through times of hardship. Even though they couldn't compete with BMW during modern times they still managed to produce red, raspy, handling little cars like the GTV2000 and today the 4C. In some instances down on engine performance but made up for it with handling and character. I'm ok with guzzi Being the underdog in the HP department but they have to make up for it somehow. They have to at least try. The V9 is not trying.

The V9 is to Guzzi what the Arna is to Alfa...

[oldbike54]

Guzzi pulled the plug on factory race teams in 1957.

In the 1970s, 80s, 90s, and 00s, there were privateer efforts with V7 Sports, 850 and 1000 LeManses, Daytona 1000s, MGS01s. 

Guzzi has a fairly good presence in AHRMA.  There's usually always a few spine frame racers there, and a  few Tontis.

The last big deal in Guzzi racing was Dr. John's endurance championship in the late 1980s.

 Yeah , loved watching the MG's race at the AHRMA events .

 1957 , damn , so long ago but is does point out that Guzzi pulled out even before the Japanese came calling . Not an easy thing to compete with the big 4 , as even Ducati , BMW , and Triumph have learned .


 

You can draw a parallel to Alfa Romeo. One of the oldest most revered racing marques

 in history who also went through times of hardship. Even though they couldn't compete with BMW during
modern times they still managed to produce red, raspy, handling little cars like the GTV2000 and today the
4C. In some instances down on engine performance but made up for it with handling and character. I'm ok
with guzzi Being the underdog in the HP department but they have to make up for it somehow. They have to at least try. The V9 is not trying.



The V9 is to Guzzi what the Arna is to Alfa...

 I thought one of the main attributes of the V7 series was its handling and ability to punch above its weight class , the V9 appears to be an extension of those qualities .

  Dusty

[Kev m]

For Reader's Digest version - just read bold/Italics/Underline


Maybe part of the problem is that I have always had only a little more than 0 interest in modern bikes.

I mean, I keep TRYING to like them. I feel like I should because of all the "performance" they offer me.

I'd get a press bike for a week out in California and AZ, or run up to BMW NA in North Jersey and pick up an RT from their fleet. I'd borrow bikes from local dealers or go to demo rides at rallies or dealers, I'd visit a friend who put me on a 180 hp bike for a week etc. I liked them well enough in short periods, I could see the fun.

So I bought an R1100RS and kept it in the fleet for years (but it got 1/4-1/2 the mileage of the other bikes I owned in the same time frame took me 6-7 years to put 40k on it, when I put that on a Sportster in 2), and a Breva 1100 later and it was the same story (5 years and 15k vs. a Jackal that was over 30k in the same timeframe). And I tried a 100 rwhp Buell just a couple of years ago but didn't even keep it much more than a year as I wanted to ride the other bikes more.

At some point I had to face the fact that I was trying to want something instead of just actually wanting it.


Part of it is ergonomics.
Part of it is power that was constantly tempting me to use it.
Part of it was just plain a better chassis that begged to be pushed harder and faster through the turns.
And the result was a very different riding experience.

At the same time I've always been drawn to the classic style bikes of Harley, Triumph, Guzzi, even Kawasaki (W650) and Honda (CB1100). Hell I had ZERO interest in Ducati other than thinking the Monsters were OK, until first the Sport Classics and then the Scrambler, but there literally has never been another Ducati that I wanted (I could happily own a Scrambler).

It's not about me being old (I'm probably median age or less for this board). Ok, maybe that's not saying much. How about the fact that I bought my first Harley at 25 and a dresser (RK) by 28. It wasn't because they were loud (it wasn't) or outlaw styled (it wasn't). I bought it for feel, function, ease of maintenance, and most of all just plain RIDING.

In just over 2 years I'd had that Road King in 30 states, had ridden it coast-to-coast, and had about 65k miles on it. Contrast that to the R1100RS with only 40k after 6 years.

On my Harleys or Guzzis I could run maybe the speed limit, or the speed limit plus 10. I could take turns a double the silly posted yellow suggestion signs (most of the time). I could run fast enough in the twisties to catch newbies on much better bikes, or fast enough to keep at least some of the better riders in sight. And once they started riding to the level that they would disappear I didn't want to follow. Maybe it's just me, but to do that they had to ride at speeds around blind corners that just seemed plain stupid and on straightaways that were haul me to jail high, often right by people's driveways, farmers fields. The hope of doing anything but pucker if there was a deer was just not there. Even on highways, I'd pass someone doing 70 and speed up a little to do it, then come across someone doing 80 and speed up to pass him, then next thing I know I'm pushing a ton on a major highway (with at least some traffic) for no reason at all.

The performance available by bikes pushed me to ride them at a level where I had to be doubly diligent about watching for kids, cops, traffic, deer.

The entire experience changes from FUN to WORK, from relaxation to stress, from pleasure to (at times) a headache.


Don't get me wrong, I love machines for their capabilities as well as their beauty. Or stated another way I see the beauty in capability. I'm NOT saying I don't want Guzzi to build a water-cooled Griso or Neo-LeMans for the faithful.

But at the same time I could care less about a Stelvio or a Norge (and honestly a Griso or Neo-LeMans too) so I don't bother reading threads about them. I certainly don't waste my time going to a thread about a Stelvio and bitching about how much I don't like it and how Guzzi is wasting their resources and how it's the end of days because it's NOT a Retro/Retro Standard/Big Block V7 etc. etc. etc.

That Yamaha is more interesting to me (and visually appealing) than anything they've made in a LONG TIME. But it's not getting me in the door and, even if I bought one based on a fall-in-love test ride my history shows it would be gone again in short order.

The truth of the matter is I have come to love the V7 BECAUSE it's NOT cutting edge, because it is not as smooth and capable as possible etc.

I love it because:

1. Feel - it's got a great riding position, great handling (even if "primitive" to modern sportbikes) that connects the rider with the experience.
2. Looks - it's a looker.
3. Efficiency - great mpg, great range

and yeah

4. It doesn't tempt me to ride ridiculously fast (even if I'm still plus legal speeds easily enough). It doesn't isolate me so much from the speed and terrain that I feel like superman and push the envelope too much.

I love the V7 because of balance (it has everything I want in a bike). It makes a lot of sense both to my heart and my head.


So the Roamer isn't really my style, but the visual cues of the Bobber really speak to me in a lot of ways. More importantly I EXPECT the function is going to be the same as my V7 - maybe a bit less range, but a bit better ergonomics. I could really see getting one.

Why is it a bad thing that Guzzi builds something like this? I guess some on this board, perhaps rightfully think that it is a sign Guzzi is NOT going to build a Neo-Lemans, Neo V11 Sport, Neo-Griso and if that's true I'm sorry for you. Especially with the brand love you show. Yeah, you'll have to buy a used one or go to another brand (Aprilia, Ducati, etc. to seek those bikes). But we don't know that for sure yet and there is a lot of hand wringing for maybe nothing. I don't take pleasure in your pain/worry, but still some of you spend SO MUCH FRIGGING TIME TELLING PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO LIKE THESE BIKES THAT we are wrong and our taste sucks that maybe I'm losing some of the sympathy.

Honestly the only bikes I would buy from Guzzi today are the V7II, Bobber, and maybe the Eldo or Audace. But with a house full of little kids and little time in the foreseeable future to tour entirely cross country the Eldo/Audace are probably silly. But that's me. I'm not telling you what to like.