Flat Tappet Recall for 8v - Complaint Pending with US Recall Agency

[LBC Tenni]

If you are a US owner of a Griso, Stelvio, or Norge with flat tappets and would like to see Piaggio forced to do the right thing and recall them, here is a link to the complaint I filed with NHTSA. In the blue box, select keyword and enter GRiSO in the search field. This will bring up my complaint. Please feel free to cut and paste from my complaint and file your own complaint. If enough of us do this, NHTSA will open an investigation and Piaggio will have to answer. Please spread the word to other forums as well. Strength in numbers. Piaggio will ignore their customers, but they can't ignore the feds.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues

[oldbike54]

 I don't think NHTSA handles non safety related issues . Might be tough to get them to consider this safety related .

  Dusty

[LBC Tenni]

If you continue to ride with flat tappets, your engine will eventually fail from the tappet wear. The potential for this to happen while the bike is being ridden seems like a safety concern to me. My complaint includes this point and any others filed should as well. NHTSA has issued many recalls with lesser safety implications, several on cars I have owned over the years, so I don't see this as a stretch at all.

[canuguzzi]

If you continue to ride with flat tappets, your engine will eventually fail from the tappet wear. The potential for this to happen while the bike is being ridden seems like a safety concern to me. My complaint includes this point and any others filed should as well. NHTSA has issued many recalls with lesser safety implications, several on cars I have owned over the years, so I don't see this as a stretch at all.

  :1:

This is a safety issue. The potential loss of engine power while on the public roadways is a safety issue. A motorcycle relies on engine power during operation to remain upright and a failure to do so increases greatly the chances of a collision or fall. Unlike a car which can remain stable in the absence of engine power, a motorcycle cannot under a variety of circumstances.

The case has merit. It should be pursued. It has little to do with quality, it has a lot to do with knowing that the only means of providing power for locomotion to maintain upright stability during movement was faulty and yet MG continued to sell the motorcycles. The engine also provides through its components, charging to maintain electrical systems including some which are directly safety related.

Fixing the flat tappet issue is not maintenance, it is a repair of defective design and/or manufacture.

Far better the press the claim than sit around with thumbs up the nethers and fingers playing pocket pool next to the money you'll pay to fix something that should be addressed by Moto Guzzi.

About time. I have a roller bike but support this effort. The only reason this stuff happens is because they think they can do it and they rely on and leverage the loyalty of all their customers, shameful.

[LBC Tenni]

Well said NP. They knew the flat tappets were doomed in 2010 when they made changes to facilitate install of the roller upgrade kits. Yet they continued putting the flats in thousands of bikes until mid-2012. Reprehensible, unethical conduct and they should be held accountable.

[Vasco DG]

 A motorcycle relies on engine power during operation to remain upright and a failure to do so increases greatly the chances of a collision or fall. Unlike a car which can remain stable in the absence of engine power, a motorcycle cannot under a variety of circumstances.

While I would like to see Piaggio get forced to 'Come to the party' if you use logic like that in your argument you are doomed to failure. It's one of the most bizarre suppositions I've ever read!

If you are able to ride a bike a seriously compromised top end to the point of failure you would not only have to be deaf but also completely insensitive. The big problem is that there are probably people out there who would just on principle! Natural selection in action!

Pete

[LBC Tenni]

You have to think like a bureaucrat Pete! 

[molly]

There was a legal case brought against Piaggio UK from a Stelvio owner claiming his bike was unfit for purpose but it was unsuccessful. Piaggio claimed it was the dealers responsibility from what I can remember. There was also another case being put together in Europe some time ago.
I don't think a case based on safety issues will be successful either. Guzzi  took a conscious decision to supply faulty goods and would have not done so without covering all legal loop holes.
But one thing I do like about the US legal system is that it certainly has more teeth than most countries so good luck to anyone that pursues the matter.

[pauldaytona]

not a safety issue at all, the loss in power goes very slow. You can easy drive 1000 miles with broken tappets. Not that it is best for the engine, but you won't notice it at all.

[George_S]

I agree, not a safety issue and not under NHTSA's control.

[LowRyter]

It appears that Tenni is right.  The NHTSA is responsible for govt mandated recalls:

https://www.recalls.gov/nhtsa.html
   
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) of the U.S. Department of Transportation provides recall information including vehicle and equipment campaigns from 1966 to present. The campaigns include motor vehicle products which experienced a safety-related defect or did not comply with federal motor vehicle safety standards:

motor vehicles & related equipment   child safety seats  tires


or................. .........

   
The EPA's Office of Transportation and Air Quality is responsible for ensuring that motor vehicles comply with the federal emission standards throughout the useful life of those vehicles. EPA can require manufacturers to recall vehicles when a substantial number of a class or category of vehicles fail to meet the emission standards. Automobile manufacturers can voluntarily issue recalls for emission-related problems.

[canuguzzi]

While I would like to see Piaggio get forced to 'Come to the party' if you use logic like that in your argument you are doomed to failure. It's one of the most bizarre suppositions I've ever read!

If you are able to ride a bike a seriously compromised top end to the point of failure you would not only have to be deaf but also completely insensitive. The big problem is that there are probably people out there who would just on principle! Natural selection in action!

Pete

Except that how does anyone know if their top end is going unless they tear it apart, some wisdom from WG infests everyone who buys the bikes?

Ever had an engine stop running while fully laden, two up in a very sharp turn, heavy bumper to bumper traffic going just fast enough for a decent lean angle? I have, it ain't fun and not falling is more luck than skill. Plenty of others experienced the same thing with DL1000 VStoms that had a map that makes any map on an MG look like a gift from the gods.

Here us the way it works. You throw all arguments at the case, not just the ones someone thinks are good. The game is numbers, more people, more arguments, more repair bills, more noise.

Like I said, sitting around hoping some sense strikes Moto Guzzi right and they do the right thing is ridiculous.

Or, everyone can just go along with the A,B or C screw job they are shoving out the door at the expense of those who spent good money on their bikes and who then got shafted.

It always happens, the many will benefit from the few who take a company like MG to task.

For those that disagree, by all means, when MG does the repairs at no cost and offer reimbursement for those that paid for it out if pocket, feel free to refuse the money or the repair.

The only failure is in not trying, that is a 100% deal. The path of least resistance are those who do nothing.

[Steph]

I'm sure having DLC & metal particles floating inside an engine of a motorcycle that can go 125mph is perfectly fine - not !   Pictures of the big end shelves in the 8V  thread can be provided as evidence for the case. I'm sure a lawyer could connect the dots and state that a bike will eventually throw a rod...l


How would a knowledgable Guzzi owning father feel if his 19 year old kid showed up one night with a new to him flat tappet Griso with 70,000miles with an open exhaust pipe drowning all the engine noise and went off with his Ninja riding friends eh?

[Vasco DG]

They wouldn't be a very good lawyer if they didn't check their facts.

Pete

[LBC Tenni]

NHTSA has done recalls on cars I have owned over the years, that didn't seem to have safety implications at all. If enough owners make enough noise about a problem that can cause premature engine failure, no matter how slow, they will take a look. If they find the manufacturer knowingly put defective parts in thousands of engines, they will issue a recall.
What is 100% certain is nothing will happen if we just sit around complaining amongst ourselves.
It'll take you 5 minutes. There is nothing to lose. File a complaint. Let the naysayers nay.

[canuguzzi]

Would be good to find owner in California willing to lasonmake an claim with Bereau of Consumer Affairs.

The consumer rights protections in California are very good, well funded and often successful.

I do not know if the failure affects emissions but wouldn't be too hard to have one tested to see. Another avenue since it could bring in another agency, especially CalEPA and CARB. Just some letters with test result attached. Would take a California bike though.

[George_S]

It appears that Tenni is right.  The NHTSA is responsible for govt mandated recalls:

https://www.recalls.gov/nhtsa.html
   
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) of the U.S. Department of Transportation provides recall information including vehicle and equipment campaigns from 1966 to present. The campaigns include motor vehicle products which experienced a safety-related defect or did not comply with federal motor vehicle safety standards:

motor vehicles & related equipment   child safety seats  tires

Yes, SAFETY recalls. This doesn't seem to fit the bill.
For NHSTA to issue a recall for an engine piece, it would have to be shown that that piece's failure was catastrophic AND that it caused or has a substantial risk to cause death or bodily injury. In the past they haven't recalled motorcycles that suddenly shutoff when riding 80 MPH and that seems to me to be more hazardous than a tappet.

[oldbike54]

 So... let's do some math . What , maybe 1000 owners in the US , and how many have had an accident because of the tappet failure , any ? Something tells me this effort may cause more harm than good .

  Dusty

[Vasco DG]

I don't think it will do any harm. I just dunno if it will do any good.

As I've said before though consider as well the fact that if there is a full recall on all 8V's it's going to cost your dealer big time so a bit of consideration there wouldn't go amiss.

Pete

[oldbike54]

I don't think it will do any harm. I just dunno if it will do any good.

As I've said before though consider as well the fact that if there is a full recall on all 8V's it's going to cost your dealer big time so a bit of consideration there wouldn't go amiss.

Pete

 That was a consideration in my comment . Really , a letter writing campaign directly to the mothership might be more effective . Seems as a group we are a bit reluctant to involve what amounts to an outsider in a battle with Piaggio . I think most of us prefer a more direct method,
we are funny that way .

  Dusty

[LBC Tenni]

Really , a letter writing campaign directly to the mothership might be more effective .

  Dusty

Or maybe I'll just wait and see if Santa and the elves put in a roller kit for me. 

[canuguzzi]

Yes, SAFETY recalls. This doesn't seem to fit the bill.
For NHSTA to issue a recall for an engine piece, it would have to be shown that that piece's failure was catastrophic AND that it caused or has a substantial risk to cause death or bodily injury. In the past they haven't recalled motorcycles that suddenly shutoff when riding 80 MPH and that seems to me to be more hazardous than a tappet.

The best path is not to defeat yourself before you get started. Make the claim, let them figure it out.

This isn't one bike or a few, it is all of them so manufactured. Big difference between some bikes doing something and all if them.

[canuguzzi]

So... let's do some math . What , maybe 1000 owners in the US , and how many have had an accident because of the tappet failure , any ? Something tells me this effort may cause more harm than good .

  Dusty

What kind of harm? If it is about getting info out, this site has already done that. If it is damaging a reputation, those are built on good service, good product and good support 

Either they have it or they don't. When has not saying something gotten something fixed?

Let's put it this way. Had MG stepped up and taken care of the customers, there would be no tappet threads, no bad PR and instead they'd have glowing praises about how they did the right thing. Every flat tappet bike owner would have great things to say. Instead, the story will be how owners had to fight tooth and nail to get this addressed. Then, it all fails, how many owners are going to keep those bikes unless they dig into their own pockets? Happy campers? Not. Let those who say its no big deal offer to pay for those who look at $1000+ as a significant impact. Who else gets to judge that if they aren't willing or can't pay for this FU that they shouldn't have the bike?

They had a choice. It is their reputation to lose, their liability and accountability to incur.

[Vasco DG]

If Guzzi do cover it for every engine it will cost me about $300 per machine. Just sayin.....

Pete

[oldbike54]

If Guzzi do cover it for every engine it will cost me about $300 per machine. Just sayin.....

Pete

 Yep , let's deal with some reality here folks .

  Dusty

[canuguzzi]

If Guzzi do cover it for every engine it will cost me about $300 per machine. Just sayin.....

Pete

It shouldnt cost you a thing. This is the gitcha that MG has relued uoon. Pete, people here get to know and trust you. You have by yourself put out more good will than MG ever has, all by your lonesome.

I don't put it past MG lawyers to look that this and take vets that because you get hit a lot if damaged owners will give them a pass.  What a way to leverage other people and that my friend, makes it all the more despicable. Like hiding behind the innocent to cover their sorry asses.

Moto Guzzi sold the product, they knew at some point about the problem. For bikes sold before they knew about it, okay, some understanding. Things can and do happen. Some good will on their part, maybe to cover parts.

For every bike they sold knowing or should have known the problem existed, they should eat it like like dry cake, they took people's money fast enough.

There is no woe is me poor Moto Guzzi and let's turn a blind eye because we like the bikes themselves. They made and sold lemons, time to pucker up.

Dealers too have recourse. One at a time you get shafted and the way it works, WG site of loyalty or not is that once it comes down to money from a customers pocket guess who wins? If MG is shafting good dealers, and I think there is enough evidence to show that might be true, then all the more reason to deal with this rather than let it go.

Dealers can use the recourse they have available, there are always options.

If the idea is that a dealer can't sustain themselves doing business with MG, not because they can't sell product but because of things like this, why should the customer suck it up? Customers are people too, not just an endless revenue source.

None of this had to be. Now that it is however, it should be a no prisoners process, make them fix the problem.

If this doesn't get fixed, what is the next one? Why did this happen the way it did? Hostages for lack of a better term. No one wants to screw over people like you so MG gets a pass. Then we wonder why these things keep happening. Not too hard to figure out.

If they can't get a few thousand bikes right then just maybe what comes is really needed.

[oldbike54]

 All of that is fine and good , but NHTSA has no control over corporate policy . Are we willing to crush dealers , or should the problem be dealt with more directly ?

  Dusty

[lost]

Yesterday when I took my Norge in for service I asked the cost to make mine a roller and was told they would not do it. If the bike made 10,000 to 15,000 miles it would probably not fail. Since the cost was so high to fix it they have chosen to let the customers bikes self destruct and then  would be there to rebuild.
It would appear they don't believe in being pro-active.

[jacksonracingcomau]

If Guzzi do cover it for every engine it will cost me about $300 per machine. Just sayin.....

Pete

Did you sign something to that effect ?

Odd thing to do IMHO, possibly arguable in court, plead ignorance/coercion/torture or something.

No way can it be your responsibility to pay, if you want to, fair enough, give freely but not a legal obligation.

Must be several thousand need doing @ $300 to Pete, quite big money to me.
Good on ya, hope your wife happy with that deal. Mine would laugh , running .

Insurance for Guzzi 8V has got way dearer recently, apparently fire risk is huge !!!

[acogoff]

     I'm by no means up on legal processes, but most states in the USA have Lemon Laws and to my mind this may qualify as  being in that category as a avenue of recourse for some.