Will Piaggio meet the Honda Neowing challenge?

[canuguzzi]

Piaggio already has the concept down pat. Larger engines they have from lots of sources and with a lot of selections available.

Honda is starting from scratch so Piaggio is way ahead until Honda releases.

3 wheelers IMHO will outsell bikes in the future. HD sells a boatload of trikes, Honda sees that and will grab some market share.

CanAm sells a lot if their non-leaning 3 wheelers. Piaggio has the ticket is they fly.

Market is wide open. I've always liked the MP3 but with some choices for a more powerful engine and upgraded design ala Neowing they could beat everyone else to the leaning trike market.

[rocker59]

In my opinion, the Trike thing is a short-term trend/fad, populated mainly by aging baby-boomers.

When they age-out, the Trike Market will suffer and wither.  Especially the Tri-Glide/Goldwing type trikes.

The Can-Ams will have longer staying power because they appeal to younger and more diverse riders.  Still just a niche, though.

[Rox]

I know Yamaha played with the concept with an FZ-09....

[George_S]

I agree there's definitely a market there, but the one thing Piaggio has working against it is that their 3 wheeler is called a scooter. Honda and Harley call them motorcycles.  "Scooter" has too much of a negative, a "sissy" connotation to it here in the U.S.

 Piaggio may have the technology, but that hasn't translated into sales in the U.S. An example is that I had  bought an MP3 400 earlier this year that was a 2010 model but only released from the warehouse by Piaggio in 2015 as a brand new example. To say they overestimated in 2010 what their sales figures would be is an understatement. They're probably a little gun shy to introduce more models if they're still doling out new 2010s.

[canuguzzi]

3 wheeled cars or bikes/trikes are going way up in sales year after year. More and more people are buying them, I don't think it is a fad.

Whether or not if you like them, a lot if people do and they attract a lot of buyers who wouldn't own a traditional motorcycle.

The youngster crowd isn't the market, they are bottom price feeders, under 10 grand and that is where they look. Once they get into their 40s, three wheelers start to look more interesting and beyond that get downright enticing.

But Honda isn't going to put out an outdated design, I think their 3 wheeler will have instant attraction for a lit of people of all ages. The lean of a bike without what many see as a hassle with motorcycles.  The no feet down makes it an easy ride for just about anyone.

I see a big market for them. It just takes the right design and off they go.

[pyoungbl]

Golly, now that you mention it I think that a leaning version of the TriKing would be very interesting.  OK, it's more of a car than a motorcycle, in that it would have an enclosed cockpit.  That did not stop TriKing.  OTOH, if it leans you get some of the fun factor of riding a bike.  For an old fart (me) this has some advantages in that I'd never have to worry about dropping the bike and I'd finally be able to actually talk to my passenger.  This would actually be a lot of fun.  Let's keep the thread going.

Peter Y.

[George_S]

If what BRP says is true, that 85% of the Can/Am buyers are people who have never owned a motorcycle before, then those buyers are not just aging baby boomers who can no longer ride a two wheeler. That would also mean there IS an extended market out there for these three and four wheeled bikes. Build what people want, and they will sell. (With some marketing of course).

[Sasquatch Jim]

  I would still rather have one of these.

 

[chuck peterson]

To me three and four wheelers are not bikes

[Dogwalker]

Here is the top 50 motorcycles/scooters sellers in France in 2015, first nine months.

1 - HONDA NSS 125 AD (Forza) : 4 608 unit�s

2 - PIAGGIO MP3 500 LT : 4 560 unit�s

3 - YAMAHA XP500 : 4 541 unit�s

4 - YAMAHA MT-09 : 3 925 unit�s

5 - YAMAHA MT-07 : 3 750 unit�s

6 - KAWASAKI Z800 : 2 677 unit�s

7 - YAMAHA YP125RA (X-Max) : 2 641 unit�s

8 - KAWASAKI ER-6 : 2 572 unit�s

9 - HONDA WW 125 (PCX) : 2 266 unit�s

10 - SUZUKI GSR 750 : 2 242 unit�s

11 - BMW R1200GS : 1 966 unit�s

12 - HONDA CB650FA : 1 574  unit�s

13 - MASH QM125GY : 1 565 unit�s

14 - BMW R1200RT : 1 511 unit�s

15 - PIAGGIO XEVO 125 : 1 480 unit�s

16 - PEUGEOT Metropolis : 1 349 unit�s

17 - DUCATI Scrambler: 1 295 unit�s

18 - TRIUMPH Street Triple : 1 174 unit�s

19 - KAWASAKI Versys : 1 140 unit�s

20 - SUZUKI UH 125 (Burgman) : 1 139 unit�s

21 - YAMAHA MT 125 : 1 092 unit�s

22 - PIAGGIO MP3 300LT : 1 080 unit�s

23 - BMW R1200GSAD : 1 035 unit�s

24 - BMW R NINE T : 1 002 unit�s

24 - YAMAHA YP125R : 1002 unit�s

26 - SUZUKI SFV 650 : 989 unit�s

27 - HONDA GLR 125 (CB125F) : 866 unit�s

27 - YAMAHA MW 125 (Tricity) : 866 unit�s

29 - PIAGGIO (Vespa) GTS 125 : 841 unit�s

30 - KTM 125 Duke : 819 unit�s

31 - HONDA CB500FA : 811 unit�s

32 - HARLEY-DAVIDSON XLH1200X : 783 unit�s

33 - BMW R1200R : 736 unit�s

34 - PIAGGIO Yourban 300 : 723 unit�s
   
35 - PEUGEOT Satelis 125 : 696 unit�s

36 - HARLEY DAVIDSON XL883N : 678 unit�s

37 - SYM GTS 125 : 671 unit�s

38 - SUZUKI AN 650 Burgman : 661 unit�s

39 - KAWASAKI Z1000 : 645 unit�s

40 � YAMAHA Nmax 125 : 626 unit�s

41 - PIAGGIO (Vespa) Primavera 125 : 625 unit�s

42 - SUZUKI GSX1000A : 623 unit�s

43 - YAMAHA YZF R1 : 600 unit�s

44 - TRIUMPH Bonneville T100 : 598 unit�s
 
45 - YAMAHA YBR 125 : 594 unit�s

46 - DUCATI M821 : 590 unit�s

47 - YAMAHA FJR1300 : 579 unit�s

48 - BMW F800R : 577 unit�s

49 - PEUGEOT Django 125 : 558 unit�s

50 - PEUGEOT Tweet 125 : 547 unit�s

[rocker59]

3 wheeled cars or bikes/trikes are going way up in sales year after year. More and more people are buying them, I don't think it is a fad.

Whether or not if you like them, a lot if people do and they attract a lot of buyers who wouldn't own a traditional motorcycle.

The youngster crowd isn't the market, they are bottom price feeders, under 10 grand and that is where they look. Once they get into their 40s, three wheelers start to look more interesting and beyond that get downright enticing.

But Honda isn't going to put out an outdated design, I think their 3 wheeler will have instant attraction for a lit of people of all ages. The lean of a bike without what many see as a hassle with motorcycles.  The no feet down makes it an easy ride for just about anyone.

I see a big market for them. It just takes the right design and off they go.

I stand by my statement.  The huge trikes like HD Tri-Glide and customs based on Goldwings and other big cruisers have a really old demographic.  As the baby-boomers pass, these behemoths will fade.

Can-Am's machine has a broader appeal and attracts non-traditional buyers into the motorcycle shops.  It has staying power.  But I still believe it's a niche market.  They won't be replacing cars for most people.  Even second cars like Miatas and such. 

Three wheeled cars?  Like the Polaris Slingshot thingie?  Popularity may kill them through government regulation.  Right now they're in a loophole.  They're really sit-in cars, but have the regulation of a motorcycle.  If they get more popular, and if a few people die, and the government re-classifies them as autos, they will become more expensive and less fun, and sales will suffer.

[Perazzimx14]

The youngster crowd isn't the market, they are bottom price feeders, under 10 grand and that is where they look. Once they get into their 40s, three wheelers start to look more interesting and beyond that get downright enticing.

I'm in my 40's with disposable income in excess of $10,000 and the only 3 wheeler that looks good to me is a dirt bike with a hack hanging off the side for very limited off paved riding up in them thar mountains. I see lots of 30+ something's interested in the CanAm's. I think the biggest draw is they are to lazy or afraid to try two wheels. Or they think they are safer on 3 wheels. All BS reasons. The day I can no longer ride on two wheel is the day I quit riding.   

[motodoc43]

Real trikes, not scooters, will always sell. When the baby boomers pass the next gen will be old enough. One said "I'm 40 and the only 3 wheeler I'd be interested in would be a dirt bike with a sidecar." What about when your 60? What if you cannot maneuver a 600 lb bike at slow speeds safely and still want to ride? I'm 54 and nowhere near needing the extra stability yet, but given that some day I may, I'd take a Guzzi thump and open air over a cage any day- even with 3 wheels!

[hooah54]

I have a Slingshot and a piaggio MP3 250 ie in addition to my Cal II and R1150R. I can't speak for markets or niches but,  If someone made a "scooter" with a 750cc engine that maneuvers as well as my MP3...I would trade all by bikes in

[LaMojo]

In my opinion, three wheeled vehicles are just plan dangerous.  Especially, the ones with one wheel up front - two in the rear like the infamous Honda Big Red or the Robin auto.  Applying the brakes in a panic condition in any situation other than a straight line stop can induce rollover PDQ. 

Two wheels up front is a much better, stable platform, especially during braking.

Thinking in simple engineering terms, braking produces a moment arm that is induced by part of the weight of the cycle, (any weight above the wheel axles - if you use that rotational point) but all of the weight of the rider(s) and equipment.  This moment arm developed during braking can place a hell of a lot of additional weight on the front wheel while reducing weight on the rear wheel.  This plus the momentum of the mass being resisted (braking) largely by the relative small road contact area of the front wheel ( that is part of an unstable platform to begin with) is scary anyway you look at it.

You can almost have the same sensory effect as a three wheeler by buying a convertible instead.  You can have wind in you hair (if you have any), radio, heat, air, and a top when needed.  Yeah, I know, I'm spoiled.

[jcctx]

Jack~ not only are you spoiled; you are a genuine OLD FART!!!!!

Also, don't you know using the front brake is dangerous!!!!

[canuguzzi]

I'm in my 40's with disposable income in excess of $10,000 and the only 3 wheeler that looks good to me is a dirt bike with a hack hanging off the side for very limited off paved riding up in them thar mountains. I see lots of 30+ something's interested in the CanAm's. I think the biggest draw is they are to lazy or afraid to try two wheels. Or they think they are safer on 3 wheels. All BS reasons. The day I can no longer ride on two wheel is the day I quit riding.

Those on WG are probably the antithesis of the typical motorcycle or powersports buyer, we bought Moto Guzzi right? Out of the hundreds of thousands of bikes sold each year, maybe 7k do what we do?

Trikes aren't taking car sales or market share, they cut into motorcycle sales and market share.

[LaMojo]

Jack~ not only are you spoiled; you are a genuine OLD FART!!!!!

Also, don't you know using the front brake is dangerous!!!!

I'm lazy too! (The head Engineer of the structural department in which I was employed for many years said I was lazy - but that was a good thing...whatever THAT meant. )

Joe - From one OLD Fart to another  ---   Thanks for the compliment!   

[jcctx]

I know exactly what he meant, got a hard job, give to the lazy fellow. He will figure out the easy way to do it!!!!!!

[canuguzzi]

In my opinion, three wheeled vehicles are just plan dangerous.  Especially, the ones with one wheel up front - two in the rear like the infamous Honda Big Red or the Robin auto.  Applying the brakes in a panic condition in any situation other than a straight line stop can induce rollover PDQ. 

Two wheels up front is a much better, stable platform, especially during braking.

Thinking in simple engineering terms, braking produces a moment arm that is induced by part of the weight of the cycle, (any weight above the wheel axles - if you use that rotational point) but all of the weight of the rider(s) and equipment.  This moment arm developed during braking can place a hell of a lot of additional weight on the front wheel while reducing weight on the rear wheel.  This plus the momentum of the mass being resisted (braking) largely by the relative small road contact area of the front wheel ( that is part of an unstable platform to begin with) is scary anyway you look at it.

You can almost have the same sensory effect as a three wheeler by buying a convertible instead.  You can have wind in you hair (if you have any), radio, heat, air, and a top when needed.  Yeah, I know, I'm spoiled.

That reason CanAm, Piaggio and now Honda put two wheels up front. The CanAms seem to be very stable, rode one and they are very easy to ride and feel extremely stable. They stop reasonably well and are almost effortless to ride unless you hotdog it. It does require some body language in turns but Honda and Piaggio went with learners making that a more natural experience.

I think if Honda releases it in the USA it will outsell a lot of bike models and you'll see an entire accessory industry built around it, new sports ideas (racing) and plenty of rental shops offering them up.

[Arizona Wayne]

I'm reading a lot of closed minds here.   Riders spouting off about things they have never even ridden.   Riders afraid of losing their manhood image.  If they were real MEN they wouldn't care what some others think of their actions.

Until you have ridden a maxi-scooter or a MP3 like me don't be so ready to shoot them down.  You may find your self reviewing your opinion about them.  I have ridden MCs from 80cc to 1100cc, 500cc maxi-scooter, 400cc MP3, 1000c Can-Am.  Right now my favorite ride of them all is my MP3 out of 9 rigs.

[rocker59]

Trikes aren't taking car sales or market share, they cut into motorcycle sales and market share.

I don't think Trikes are taking motorcycle market share.

The people who are buying Trikes either don't want a 2-wheeled cycle, or can't ride a 2-wheeled cycle (for whatever reason).

Trikes are just bonus powersports sales. 

[hooah54]

All of my bikes have a different feel and give me pleasure depending on the conditions and mood.  The MP3 is becoming by number one choice for any distance less than 50 miles.

[canuguzzi]

I don't think Trikes are taking motorcycle market share.

The people who are buying Trikes either don't want a 2-wheeled cycle, or can't ride a 2-wheeled cycle (for whatever reason).

Trikes are just bonus powersports sales.

More trikes are sold than are Moto Guzzi bikes.

A few people I know can ride a bike but choose the CanAm instead. Those are otherwise motorcycle sales. When someone makes a choice to buy a trike instead if a bike, that is taking market share. The definition. 

Look at the units being sold. Going up not down. Markets take time to mature. Three wheelers like the CanAm and Honda haven't been around that long compared to motorcycles, at least not as factory supported products.

[blackcat]

I don't think Trikes are taking motorcycle market share.

The people who are buying Trikes either don't want a 2-wheeled cycle, or can't ride a 2-wheeled cycle (for whatever reason).

Trikes are just bonus powersports sales.

Last summer I was riding the BRP and met a couple of guys in Maggie Valley who had CanAm's and both of them couldn't ride bikes for various health reasons. When I was talking to them somebody rode by with some sort of canopy over their CanAm and they were very interested in that option. Personally, I'd rather have a two seater sports car instead of a CanAm, but to each their own.

[rocker59]

More trikes are sold than are Moto Guzzi bikes.

Meaningless comparison.

A few people I know can ride a bike but choose the CanAm instead. Those are otherwise motorcycle sales. When someone makes a choice to buy a trike instead if a bike, that is taking market share. The definition. 

In your anecdote, the only way these few purchases would be impacting motorcycle market share is if those people you know are cross-shopping motorcycles and Can-Am trikes.  Something tells me they are not doing that. 

Look at the units being sold. Going up not down. Markets take time to mature. Three wheelers like the CanAm and Honda haven't been around that long compared to motorcycles, at least not as factory supported products.

Just because you dream it does not make it real.  Yes, the small Trike market niche is increasing volume, but so is the motorcycle market.

[rocker59]

Last summer I was riding the BRP and met a couple of guys in Maggie Valley who had CanAm's and both of them couldn't ride bikes for various health reasons. When I was talking to them somebody rode by with some sort of canopy over their CanAm and they were very interested in that option. Personally, I'd rather have a two seater sports car instead of a CanAm, but to each their own.

Yep.  An example of how the trike market is expanding without impacting motorcycle sales.

Fiat 124 or Miata, for me, if bikes are no longer an option.   

But, I'm not into quads and snow machines.  I can fully understand people who are into those machines being drawn to Trikes as yet another lifestyle accessory/toy.

[chuck peterson]

I have a Slingshot and a piaggio MP3 250 ie in addition to my Cal II and R1150R. I can't speak for markets or niches but,  If someone made a "scooter" with a 750cc engine that maneuvers as well as my MP3...I would trade all by bikes in

I believe....let me see here....that would be....a....78 Convert...why, yes, yes a 1000c automatic that does handle as well as an MP3...wouldn't that work? I'll hand you a Convert, and you hand me all those toys, okay?

[canuguzzi]

Meaningless comparison.

In your anecdote, the only way these few purchases would be impacting motorcycle market share is if those people you know are cross-shopping motorcycles and Can-Am trikes.  Something tells me they are not doing that. 

Just because you dream it does not make it real.  Yes, the small Trike market niche is increasing volume, but so is the motorcycle market.

A few sales? You simply don't know what you're talking about. Did you not see the above list of most popular sales in France? That is just one country.

If trike sales are a few, then MG sales are a breath away from death. Yeah, the comparison is valid. If trikes are a niche then what does that make the bikes selling less than that, a hobby business?

Just because you can't see a trend doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Someone said about computers what you say about trikes.

[canuguzzi]

I might be dreaming but at least I don't have carcal tunnel syndrome.

We all probably dreamed and that is why we bought motorcycles. Some bought out of necessity but that doesn't mean trikes and three wheelers aren't trending up in sales and with more models and new technology, they will become a major sport, just like motorcycling.