LeMans IV...

[motogman]

Like so many I have lusted for an 850 LeMans for sometime but they have become unobtainium.

While reading Falloon on V7 Sports and LeMans over the holidays I have become interested in the LeMans IV.  From what I can tell these bikes are not particularly well loved but seem to be a pretty solid development in the Guzzi history.  Yes - they had the weird 16 in front wheel and maybe this is problematic for tire replacement (what is the thinking on this issue?) but it seems the motor and rest of the bike are pretty solid.

So the discussion I want to start here is what are the good, the bad and the ugly with the LeMans IV?  What are they going for?

How about some pics and experience with this model?

[analog kid]

I posted this same question about 10 years ago (how is it possible it was that long ago?).
A LM 4 SE was for sale locally. The thread is lost due to a board crash but essentially the verdict was as you already think: solid.
Some will gripe about the styling and the 16" front, others offered good real world advice and experience (hello Pete).
I had no issue with the 16 front and most owners did not either. John Wittner certainly didn't.
Unfortunately I let it go in spite of the good advice received here. Don't let that happen to you...:-)

[Arizona Wayne]

I had a `87 LM IV for 25K miles.  Had to sell it before I lost my driver's license.  Mine had the 16" front rim which came w/a 120/80 front tire.  At certain speeds I would get some head shake.  I put on a 110/90 front tire and no more head shakes.  I liked the 16" front rim so much I put it on my CX100(LM II).  16" rim makes for quicker/lighter turning at slow speeds w/clip ons.           

[Matt]

The styling may be different but they are far more comfy than earlier LeMans with the lower steering head and seat made from LEGOs.

Bigger motor
Bigger carbs
B10 cam
Better suspension

 

In ten years it'll be sought after and you'll already have one.

[Chuck in Indiana]

In ten years it'll be sought after and you'll already have one.

True.  The 16 inch wheel is a non issue.

[dsrdave]

The 16" tire is a non issue for me.  Maybe inflation pressure or tire mfg. Contributed to the problem some had ????  The original 850 Lemans is great, but for the most part I think the bikes got better with every model introduced.  Culminating with the Lemans 5.  Probably my favorite of the series.  However, my daily rider is usually the V11 sport and I suspect next year the Centauro....

[Arizona Wayne]

The LeMans IV is a true sport/tourer.  It's not fun to ride in stop & go.  Made for the open road with over 220 miles between fillups.  I had a Corbin seat on mine and could ride it comfortably 900 miles a day if needed.  I got 40-45 mpg with mine.  But mine was not stock.  It had bad ass sounding GiaCa moto mufflers, 2-1-2  exhaust, titanium pushrods.  It was cold blooded until warmed up. Top speed was 137 mph, which I ran it at many times on public roads.  That's why I sold it before I paid the piper.     

[LeRoy]

I bought my 1986 LM 1000 in 1986 from Larry Klein (may he rest in peace) at GT Motors in Michigan. I still have it. It still has its original 16-inch front wheel. And it still hasn't given me any real problems. In fact, the bike has been stone cold reliable. The only changes I've made have been a Corbin seat (the original isn't bad, especially if you've had experience with earlier Le Mans models), braided steel brake lines and a Hepco u. Becker rack system for their 30L side cases.

In past years I've toured on the bike and used it as an all-purpose machine. That being said, it's happiest on the open road or in mixed use on mixed roads. It's not a good commuter bike. The bike reliably returns 45-50 mpg and has all the power I need in my advanced years. In fact, that's one of its best virtues: it was a fairly overt sports bike when I got it in 1986 and I was a bit more of a sport myself. As almost 30 years have gone by, my sportyness has diminished and the bike would now be considered a sport tourer. As a result, it's still a perfect match for my needs and skills. Over the  years I've grown to enjoy it even more every spring when I break it out for the first time after a long winter.

If you're concerned about tire availability for the 16-inch front and 18-inch rear tires, rest assured that there are several good choices available in the U.S. Among these are Avon Road Riders, Bridgestone BT45 Battlax, Michelins of one sort or another and surely others that I haven't delved into. Perhaps the most important issue regardless of brand is maintaining a rather high inflation pressure. That seems to ward off handling oddities. One missing tire fitment on the U.S. market is the Pirelli Sport Demon. They don't import the proper front tire.

These bikes are simple, reliable and easy to work on. There don't seem to be any unobtanium parts. Its weak spots are few: the cheaply made handlebar switchgear and, some will say, the standard carburation. Tread carefully here as it's much easier to make things worse than better. Improvement is not as simple as swapping in the Euro jetting because the basic carb internals are not directly compatible. That being said, a good starting point is well documented if you find that a given bike runs unsatisfactorily. Valvetrain wear, particularly related to the valve stems, has been reported but I've not experienced any issues. One thing that helps greatly in the overall ownership experience is to fit a decently powerful battery. An Odyssey will make starting the high-compression engine an easier task.

As a buyer, you'll find a fairly good assortment of bikes come along over a few months time. I've seen rough examples going for as little as $3-4,000. Very nice bikes are not hard to find in the $5-6,000 range. Things like the Le Mans 1000 SE and later LM V models often command a modest premium on these prices. The later bikes also have an 18-inch front wheel for those too timid to ignore the misinformation surrounding the original 16-inch wheel.

All-in-all, the Le Mans 1000 (LM IV or LM V) are outstanding sport Guzzis and, in my opinion, are currently undervalued, thus a very good buy. Mine's not for sale.

If you do find one, drop me a PM. I'll send you a CD with a wealth of original factory documentation (Parts, Workshop and Owner's Manuals in pdf form), copies of original brochures and ads, road tests, how-to fixing tips, wiring diagrams and much more. It's a nice compilation. Just send me a PM and I'll send one along. I'll ship these for free anywhere in the world to WildGuzzi list participants. This same offer is open to any WildGuzzi member.

[double.d]

I've had mine for 29 and a half years now. Nothing more needs to be said.

[tonyduc]

I've had mine for 29 and a half years now. Nothing more needs to be said.

Hi, how did you do the front end conversion-especially the round headlght? All bolt on or some mods? I see you also changed the speedo?

I recently purchased on 84 LM IV - repairable line crack in front fairing. So I was thinking of alternatively doing the round headlight conversion.

[lazlokovacs]

A tonti lemans will own your soul!

The lemans 1000 is the most ugly/beautiful motorbike ever made, still after 5 years of ownership I really cant decide if its a real looker or real loathsome.

huge tank, all the guzzi virtues, none of the stupid fuel injection issues, practical enough for daily use, narrow for filtering, sporty but not overly so, it throbs, spits and swaggers and will do its own thing until the end of time (or the end of its clutch if you're lazy)

LeRoy very kindly posted me a cd with a wealth of information on the lemans all the way to france so you'll find yourself in the company of some really good people if you get one...


re the 16inch v 18 front wheel there were actually 3 itinerations from the factory;

as i understand it;

1- 16inch front wheel with no frame changes - dodgy weave
2 -16inch front wheel with frame adapted to suit wheel size - beautiful handling a la dr john's racer
3- return to 18inch wheel but keeping the frame adpated for the 16inch - doh! steers like a bus

get one!

[Tobit]

A super bike, easy to maintain and overbuilt.  The parts you might never see for sale are the BatWing Euro turn signals.  Almost worth buying a bike for just to harvest them and flip the bike.

From an old post:

Bought in '87, with 3,000 miles.  Now has 48,000 miles so obviously I parked it for a year or three now and again when other bikes were in the stable.  The others have come and gone but this one stays.  Has some of the usual period mods from RaceCo, and aftermarket.

Currently with Bub header/Emgo "Dunstall Decibels"
K&Ns,
Ed Milich "Final Udate" jetting http://www.guzzitech.com/lemansjetting-ed.html
Light throttle springs
Removed external throttle return springs
Agostini timing gears (removed, went back to chain when the gear teeth began pitting and howling like a supercharger)
Dyna III ignition & coils
Accel wires
390 Cam (probably not needed, wasn't the 390 a B10?)
Lightened flywheel/ring gear
FAC dampers and Progressive springs
18" FW
SS brake lines, still integrated
100/55 Halogen w/ HL relay
Halogen hi output parking light (don't remember wattage)
Ignition switch relay (only relay coil current goes through switch now)
SS valves
Bronze guides w/ seals
3-angle seat grind
CC'd combustion chambers & intakes
Solid rocker spacers
Used to have built in radar detector, removed when living in VA
Michelin Macadam (much better life and ride than Metzeler ME33/ME99 combo)
Seat by whoever made it.  I found it hanging at Moto America about 20 years ago.  Still nice.
Other doo-dads I've forgotten over the years.

I don't ride it much anymore due to family obligations but there's nothing like it when it fires up and flies me down the road, loafing at 80mph turning heads and intimidating Mustangs with it's sound.  Nice Guzzi I just can't seem to part with.  It's only for sale occasionally, then I start it and ride it.  It's pretty much "me."

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

re the 16inch v 18 front wheel there were actually 3 itinerations from the factory;

as i understand it;

1- 16inch front wheel with no frame changes - dodgy weave
2 -16inch front wheel with frame adapted to suit wheel size - beautiful handling a la dr john's racer
3- return to 18inch wheel but keeping the frame adpated for the 16inch - doh! steers like a bus

<All of this is from memory, so don't flame me if it isn't totally correct>. I don't remember any changes to the frame itself, but there were different triple clamps. In the US, the '85 had different triple clamps than the '86 onward. It's easy to tell the difference - the early ones were smoothly cast and aluminum, the later ones were roughly cast and steel/iron. The offset was different, the later triples have less. The later triples were offered as an update for the early bikes by the importer. There was lots of loud "discussion" at the importer's open house in '86 about all of this.
<edit: page 90 of "Moto Guzzi Big Twins" seems to agree with the above>. 

Dr. John was running the early smooth ones when I saw the bike in '85.

[HDGoose]

I had a 1985 LeMansIV. Everyone I personally talked to that had handling issues had he bike over loaded and incorrectly loaded. I used it to travel solo, with sadle bags, anks bag and a large bag attached to the seat. Never had any issues with handling.

[lazlokovacs]

ah yes charlie, you may in fact be correct.... My copy of the lemans bible is nowhere at hand so I can't verify, I thought it might have been the steering stem that changed as well?? next time jacksonracing is online I'm sure he can us straight if you haven't already...

...except a 'triple clamp' should really be called a 'yoke', if you'll pardon me standing up for the queens english!

[motogman]

A few more questions....

There seems to be a number stamped in the steering head/frame and the number on the VIN plate.  What about engine numbers?  Do they match?  I did not see an engine number on the VIN plate but did not look that closely.,

What about the SE variant?  Falloon indicates there were ~150 of these made.  Does anyone know the serial numbers of the SE models.  I think they are pretty self evident by the color scheme etc.  What, if any, premium does an SE bring?

[Arizona Wayne]

A few more questions....

There seems to be a number stamped in the steering head/frame and the number on the VIN plate.  What about engine numbers?  Do they match?  I did not see an engine number on the VIN plate but did not look that closely.,

What about the SE variant?  Falloon indicates there were ~150 of these made.  Does anyone know the serial numbers of the SE models.  I think they are pretty self evident by the color scheme etc.  What, if any, premium does an SE bring?

Don't know if this happened to all of the SEs shipped to the US but many were exposed to salt air coming over and thusly were sold cheaper because of it.  Harpers should remember about this. 

[motogman]

Don't know if this happened to all of the SEs shipped to the US but many were exposed to salt air coming over and thusly were sold cheaper because of it.  Harpers should remember about this. 

Falloon mentions this about the SE.  I had the number wrong - he says 100 were shipped to the US ans some to other markets.  He also notes the trans had straight cut gears and a different set of ratios.  Can anyone interpret what this means re performance etc?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Don't know if this happened to all of the SEs shipped to the US but many were exposed to salt air coming over and thusly were sold cheaper because of it.  Harpers should remember about this. 

IIRC, it was just one container full, however many that might have been. Price on those was reduced by $2500.

"Moto Guzzi Big Twins" suggests the SE was actually slower by a second in the 1/4 mile due to higher first gear ratio. 

[LeRoy]

re the 16inch v 18 front wheel there were actually 3 itinerations from the factory;

as i understand it;

1- 16inch front wheel with no frame changes - dodgy weave
2 -16inch front wheel with frame adapted to suit wheel size - beautiful handling a la dr john's racer
3- return to 18inch wheel but keeping the frame adpated for the 16inch - doh! steers like a bus

There was indeed an early change to the fork geometry of Le Mans 1000 models with the 16-inch front wheel. This is what the quote above notes as items 1 & 2. However, it was not the frame that was modified; it was the forks and related bits. Sometime in May 1985 the factory documented a running change in LM 1000 production from frame number 12631 and some slightly earlier machines. This change incorporated new upper and lower fork yokes, new dampers, new headlight ears and miscellaneous hardware. See the first page attached below.

There was also a retrofit kit (28 99 95 60) to bring previous bikes up to this level. It included all of the above parts as well as a new fork seal design and a new side stand which was apparently needed to work properly with the new fork geometry. See the second page attached below.

I cannot say with certainty that the early and late fork geometry corresponds with the smooth cast aluminum vs. rough steel fork material noted in Charlie's post above. I also do not know whether the early and later fork yokes have any uniquely identifying numbers on them. It would be very interesting to see whether any long-time dealers have the retrofit kit still on hand. I believe that I came by this information from Harpers, so a hat tip is due them for the record keeping.

Finally, if I were to be looking at a 1985 LM 1000 made anytime in the first half of the calendar year, I'd look very carefully at the forks and try to establish what, exactly, was on the bike. I would also look very critically at any LM 1000 fork yokes being sold as spare parts. It would be unfortunate to unknowingly buy the earlier parts. In a perfect world you'd expect the first generation parts that were superseded to have been destroyed. But an ounce of prevention might be worth a pound of cure in this case.

[Chuck in Indiana]

IIRC, it was just one container full, however many that might have been

AFAIK, a container load is 34 bikes.

[motogman]

What year did Guzzi start using the long international VIN numbering standard?

[malik]

Different years in different jurisdictions, I believe. My 1995 1100 Sport (sold new in New Zealand) does NOT have the the current VIN format (starting with ZGU). I have a suspicion that the newer format was required earlier in the US.

Mal

[bigbikerrick]

I was lucky to find this well kept 85 LeMans 1000 from a forum member, and it was located about 4 hours drive from my home. This bike is very well sorted( Thanks Bruce!) and runs very strong. The sound from the Mistral pipes is intoxicating....It sounds like a hot rodded automotive V8 to me, and Ive had a few people comment that it "doesnt sound like a motorcycle" I like the look of the 16" fat front tire, and it seems to handle fine to me. I have only owned it for a couple of months, but I have fallen head over heels for this hot Italian "redhead"...She is a keeper!
Rick.

[Old Jock]

I've had mine for 29 and a half years now. Nothing more needs to be said.

Looking Luvley D 

[5154guzzi]

  The SE close ratio gearbox offers less pickup performance on tight roads ( or 1/4 mile )  compared to the other lemans gearboxes.   It comes onto it`s own at triple digit speeds and will outrun any other lemans due to it`s tight 4th and 5th gears.  For real world riding and road legal speeds, the regular lemans is a better choice.  Behind that bodywork is perhaps one of Moto Guzzi`s best bikes ever.


 

[Dimples]

It is a good vintage Guzzi, but ugly!

The 850 is a much more rowdy ride in my experience. Yes, the LM I is now big money, but the LM III 850 not so much. Just need to find a Corbin if you want more comfort.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Tonti LeMans.. What they've been making lately? Not my cuppa. I'll stick with my 4/5 scale LeMans 4 and Mighty Scura... the last of the *real* Guzzis. 

[bigbikerrick]

Tonti LeMans.. What they've been making lately? Not my cuppa. I'll stick with my 4/5 scale LeMans 4 and Mighty Scura... the last of the *real* Guzzis. 

I cant call the IV ugly, but, cosmetically, I do prefer the tail of the III. To my taste, the II is the prettiest of the series, I even like it better than the 1. , but thats just me, I like the brutal look of the square engine.
Rick.

[guzziart]

Hi All & Happy New Year!

This is my LMIVSE, I got from the late great MGNOC Ohio Rep Jack Arnold.  When he first told me about the bike, I had no clue what it was, having no Guzzi savvy, I googled it to get an idea of what they looked like.  Well, I don't know about the color scheme, I thought.  As it got closer to the time to actually go see the bike at Jack's place, I had made a decision that I'm going to get this bike whatever the cost, it was to be my first Guzzi, I no longer cared about the color, I no longer cared about what others had to say regarding the 16" front wheel and other rhetoric....I wanted this thing!

I enjoy riding it, as others have said, it's not a pleasurable urban commuter (tall gearing) but at highway speed and above, it's rock solid and rapidly starts to feel missile like.  I'm very happy that I didn't pass on the opportunity to experience this motorcycle.  Today, I think that most of these offered are reasonably priced/highly affordable.  If you want one, get one, they're out there, we're not get any younger...just do it!  No regrets here.