History of the V7/V7 II

[rob-mg]

Does anyone know the development history of these bikes, including engine, or a good source of information? Role of Miguel Galluzzi since he joined Piaggio?

There's actually very little on the internet. There are brief references to an early V7, but no detail and no real info on the connection, if any, to current V7s.

Sources like Wikipedia have a fair bit of info on the history of other models, but almost nothing on the history of the modern V7.

There are a number of interviews with Galluzzi, but none - including Jamie Robinson's interview with him about these bikes - talk about the V7 historically or his role, if any, in designing the current bike.

Thanks

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

It all started with the V50.

http://www.vintagemotorcyclesonline.com/features/stories/166-the-little-guzzi-that-could

[rob-mg]

It all started with the V50.

http://www.vintagemotorcyclesonline.com/features/stories/166-the-little-guzzi-that-could

Thanks very much, that would confirm what I've been able to sort of piece together, although there isn't exactly a wealth of info on the internet, unless I'm missing something (entirely possible) about the V50.

Next question is, how do we get from the V50 to the V7 II?

It's kind of a pity that Moto Guzzi itself doesn't make this information readily available, but that's the way it is.

Maybe there's a book out there that explains the history?

[rob-mg]

Delete - accidental double post.

[Howard R]

Next question is, how do we get from the V50 to the V7 II?

We get there with intermediate stops at the Monza, Lario, V65C, V65SP, Nevada & Breva 750, and the first V7 series along the way.

I'm not aware of any one compendium of this lineage, but I'm sure the Google machine can help you fill in at least some of the blanks along the way. 

Happy searching!

Howard

[rob-mg]

I'm not aware of any one compendium of this lineage, but I'm sure the Google machine can help you fill in at least some of the blanks along the way. 

Happy searching!

Yes, there is no compendium, which is why I'm asking here - surprising given the role of this bike in Moto Guzzi's lineup.

As for your version of the hack phrase "Google is your friend", in this case apparently not.

I think it would be pretty cool to piece together the history of these bikes. Apparently you can't help. Great if others can. And if there's a book that covers the history of these bikes, that would be great.

[oldbike54]

 My guess is that most of the knowledge being sought is contained right here . Give the SB experts time .

  Dusty

[rob-mg]

My guess is that most of the knowledge being sought is contained right here . Give the SB experts time .

  Dusty

Thanks, I suspect so. This might well be the one place, at least outside Italy, where there are enough people with the historical knowledge to record the history.

Very cool.

[mwrenn]

Your best source of information about all of the small block models, in chronological order, would be a copy of Guzziology.
Basically they started with the V50 and V35, then came the V50II, V50III and V35II.  Clip ons and rear sets made a V50 Monza, V35 Imola, and the V40 Capri model for Japan.
Next was the bored and stroked V65 and V65SP.  The SP had a downsized version of the 1000SP fairing.
Then came the V35/50/65 Custom, basically a mid sized California II with tall handlebars, windshields etc..
V35/65 Florida was next, with better seats, bigger forks.
Next up was the Nevada 350 and 750, 750 Classic IE, and Nevada 750 Touring..
These were followed by the 4 valve models (hell yeah!!!): V65 Lario,V50 Monza II, and the V35 Imola II.
Then Guzzi got busy...
V35 TT, V65TT, the 350, 650, and 750 NTX, V65 GT and V35GT, the V75, with two and four valve versions, V35III, the Targa 750, the Strada 750, 750 SP and 750-T.
This gets us to the more recent Breva 750 and Breva 750 touring, followed by the V7 Classic, V7 Cafe, V7 Racer, and now there is a V7 Stone and V7 Stornello.  The 750 Nevada is still in Guzzi's lineup in Europe.

I think I covered most of them, there was a V50 NATO bike in there too, with a kickstarter, and the Mythological Ippogrypho, which was advertised but never produced, as far as I know.

Guzziology lists all of the differences between these models, and the small block engine section of the book gives the engine, transmission, rear drive differences.

Chuck on this forum took a Guzzi 750 small block engine out of a U.S. Army Hunter drone and got it running in a Lario, there is a fascinating thread about that.

Hope this helps...
Small blocks get in your blood for sure....lol

[rob-mg]

Hope this helps...
Small blocks get in your blood for sure....lol

Thank you. It certainly does help.

[Lcarlson]

Quote from: Howard R on Today at 08:21:46 PM

I'm not aware of any one compendium of this lineage, but I'm sure the Google machine can help you fill in at least some of the blanks along the way. 

Happy searching!

<<Yes, there is no compendium, which is why I'm asking here - surprising given the role of this bike in Moto Guzzi's lineup.

As for your version of the hack phrase "Google is your friend", in this case apparently not.

I think it would be pretty cool to piece together the history of these bikes. Apparently you can't help. Great if others can. And if there's a book that covers the history of these bikes, that would be great.>>

Always nice to see a gracious response to a well intentioned offering....

[Murray]

Might be worth looking up "The Moto Guzzi Story" by Ian Falloon.

[rob-mg]

Quote from: Howard R on Today at 08:21:46 PM

I'm not aware of any one compendium of this lineage, but I'm sure the Google machine can help you fill in at least some of the blanks along the way. 

Happy searching!

<<Yes, there is no compendium, which is why I'm asking here - surprising given the role of this bike in Moto Guzzi's lineup.

As for your version of the hack phrase "Google is your friend", in this case apparently not.

I think it would be pretty cool to piece together the history of these bikes. Apparently you can't help. Great if others can. And if there's a book that covers the history of these bikes, that would be great.>>

Always nice to see a gracious response to a well intentioned offering....

Don't know what generation you are, but in mine telling someone to search Google is pretty much a statement that they didn't bother and will find the answer if they do, which in this case involved searches on five different search engines (yes, Google isn't the only one) that came up empty. The reference to searching interviews with Galluzzi might have been a clue that my attempts to track this down might have been more than cursory.

And your substantive contribution is...

[rob-mg]

Might be worth looking up "The Moto Guzzi Story" by Ian Falloon.

Thanks, will do so.

[malik]

There's a lot of aficionados of the small blocks on the quite active small block guzzi yahoo site - I expect there's a wealth of accumulated wisdom on the older small blocks there. Have you ever ridden with Monza riders? - they are different - mostly faster.

Mal aficianados

[Howard R]

A slightly snarky response not withstanding, what I was trying to convey in my post is that, first and foremost, I am about the furthest thing you could find from a small block expert, but there is more to them than could be summed up in a quick post or two.  There are many on here (such as MWrenn) who know far more, I was only trying to give some suggestions on where to start until more substantive knowledge appeared.  I'm old (also fat and ugly) but I just tried "Guzzi Ippogrifo" as Mike mentioned in Google and got 13,500 entries including one right here:  http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=21232.0 so it does appear there is information to be found.  Google even offered to correct my spelling as I was typing in the query.  There is a guy out in California named Ed Milich who races small block Guzzis (among other things) and has some technical info on his web site http://guzzipowered.forumcircle.com/viewforum.php?f=3& so that is another resource.

I also went and looked in my copy of Mario Colombo's book "Moto Guzzi" (yes, hard copy used to be a "thing") and found about 25 pages (out of 400) on the small block lines from the V35/50 up to the V75.  My copy is the 3rd edition from 1990, there does seem to be a 4th edition so it might have more info on the later models.  He starts in 1921 so you get the whole history of the company.  You might also try looking for information on Lino Tonti, he was the primary Guzzi engineer who designed the small block from its inception.  The modern ones still have a lot in common, I think it's still the same basic frame & running gear as evidenced by Chuck's Aero Lario and others who have bolted Breva drive train components right into the earlier models.

I hope you find this more informative.

Howard

[Aaron D.]

More generally, the small block was a Tonti concept to make a less expensive (to manufacture and sell) smaller machine.

It really is a clever design with more modern thinking than the big block. The Heron heads worked pretty well and we're sort of a thing in the '70s. The crankcase has much lower swept volume, too.

I admire the swingarm design though I've never worked on one.

[rocker59]

As far as the "why" of the 2009 V7 goes...

The Nevada and 750 Breva were slow sellers.  Dated styling didn't do them any favors.

With retro all the rage, Piaggio/Guzzi decided to try some vintage-styled clothing on the small block line. 

A new fuel tank, styled like the V7 Sport of the 1970s, a new rear fender & tail light, along with some small tweaks to the 750 Nevada chassis were inspired.  The small block line went from a microscopic part of Guzzi's sales, to around 50% of sales in five years time.

Mechanically, the 2009 V7 Classic differed very little from the 750 Nevada.  Bodywork, wheels/tires, handlebars, gauges, foot peg placement, exhaust.  Amazing what was basically a facelift can do !!!

[Steph]

The history of the V7 is that Guzzi had loads of unsold Nevada 750's and rolled the dice on a cosmetic retro job, opened the garage back door and sold one to you. 

[Guido Valvole]

V50 through V65 through V75 through Nevada/750 Breva to V7 is pretty much straight evolution. No revolutionary changes except for under-developed 4-valve variants, of which the 650 Lario is the best known. Or least unknown... The frame is very similar to the earlier big-block Tonti frame, with the cast-aluminum swingarm mounted to the gearbox the biggest difference. The oil breather system was an improvement over the big-block. Transmission breather less so.

Early smallblocks had plenty of problems -- dodgy quality control, stretchy exhaust valves, major design flaws in the rear drive most notable -- but all of that seems to have been fixed by the (smallblock) V7. Or even 750 Breva / Nevada. I put a first-year V7 Racer seat on my 1979 V50. Not exactly plug-and-play but frame hadn't changed much at all. Biggest difference was when the rear brake was moved from the drive side to the off-side. Might make wheel removal a little trickier but when the rear-drive inner seal leaks it won't get all over the disc.

Offshoots from the standards were the 500cc Monza and 350cc Imola, basically V50/V35 with clip-ons and slightly rear-set pegs (and higher primary gearing at least for the Monza), C "California" Jr cruisers, TT enduros and the 4-valves. Plus the ultra-rare drone engine with 2-valve hemi heads.

There isn't really all that much information out there as the sexy big blocks get all the love and attention. But there's a lot to like about smallblocks, and the current ones are close in size to the original big-block V7 Sport.

V7 engine was basically the 750 Breva mill. Went to single throttle body a couple of years ago, less trouble there, yay. Then to the mostly all-new V7 II engine. Still Heron heads. Which yeah were used by Cosworth (SCA, off the top of my head) for reasons of low cost and in early Jaguar V12s, ditto. And Morinis. Not the greatest for breathing but simple and reliable as long as the exhaust valves aren't made of rubber...
cr

[redrider]

Am I mistaken here? The V7 was the original big block. Hemi head. Crank inserted into the one piece case and sump bolted on. Eventually culminating in the V11 series. The V7 II is of a different lineage. Split case, Heron head.

[oldbike54]

Am I mistaken here? The V7 was the original big block. Hemi head. Crank inserted into the one piece case and sump bolted on. Eventually culminating in the V11 series. The V7 II is of a different lineage. Split case, Heron head.

 You're confused 

  Dusty

[Steph]

Check-out your local library for V7 history 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Am I mistaken here? The V7 was the original big block. Hemi head. Crank inserted into the one piece case and sump bolted on. Eventually culminating in the V11 series. The V7 II is of a different lineage. Split case, Heron head.

You're not mistaken. The Ur V7 evolved into the engine used up through the Bellagio.

Totally unrelated in design to the modern V7 series.

[oldbike54]

You're not mistaken. The Ur V7 evolved into the engine used up through the Bellagio.

Totally unrelated in design to the modern V7 series.

 All true , but pretty sure our young OP is only asking about the SB V7 series .

  Dusty

[tiger_one]

Young??   Compared to who?

[oldbike54]

Young??   Compared to who?

 About 99% of the members here  Think Rob is in his early 30's .

  Dusty

[Steph]

About 99% of the members here  Think Rob is in his early 30's .

  Dusty

Dusty, as a moderator, you have the patience of a saint   

[oldbike54]

Dusty, as a moderator, you have the patience of a saint   

 Some here would disagree  Thanks however .

  Dusty

[bad Chad]

Not sure the Breva 750 was considered to have dated styling when it was in showrooms?

The first gen small blocks didn't sell well here in north america, but it's my understanding that the Nevada and other small blocks sold pretty well in many other nations, enough so they kept Guzzi afloat during some of the more lean years.