Pics of my shot flat tappets at just 6400 miles!

[Vasco DG]

Phil, as I said, I don't like it but its standard corporate practice. Yes, its a design/materials issue but to prove that will be difficult and costly. If someone wants to throw money at it trying? Knock yerselves out! I just suspect that it would be throwing good money after bad.

pete

[Cool Runnings]

Flat Tappet problems on 8V Guzzis permed 2012.

Just as a heads up all of the flat tappet bikes are likely to fail.

 It seems that diagnosis is in some cases poor and in many cases there may actually be shameful gouging of customers who choose to have their tappets inspected to check for wear.

 For what its worth every flat tappet bike I have inspected after my revision to my earlier opinion on the matter having been proven wrong has shown signs of wear. Every one. Not a few, many. I now have a veritable alp of dead camshafts and tappets in my workshop. Believe me when I say that you DO NOT want to wait until the problem becomes unavoidably apparent as by then it will of fed shit all through the engine and the chances of you loosing the big end bearings increases exponentially. at that point it starts getting REALLY expensive.

 Unfortunately at least one person I know was charged eight hours to have their tappets inspected on a Griso. This was so patently barmy that my mate Mark who was over today videoed me stripping a left hand cambox on another low mileage bike today. We only filmed the LH side but stripped both. The LH side is the harder of the two but can be done without removing the tank. The video, which I will link up here later, lasts for 13 minutes. This is from start to the point I've disassembled the cambox on the bench. I wasn't working fast. The RH box took about ten minutes longer as I had to remove the tank to de-tension the cam chain on the RH side and the 'Quick Disconnect' didn't want top so i dropped the injectors off the manifolds.

 One bloke in So-Cal was charged EIGHT HOURS for this job, (Plus the reassembly which takes only a fraction longer.) and was told his tappets were fine. No pictures were supplied and to be honest I doubt the veracity of this claim.

 Yes. We are here to make money from our skills but as the likes of Micah will I'm sure attest there is a difference between diligence and a fair price and rampant gouging and bare faced stupidity!

 Below are three pics of the cam and, most importantly, the tappets. This sort of wear is NOT normal, or acceptable. Failing to address it s per the instructions for upgrade will result in you trashing your engine, sooner rather than later.



http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?315242-Flat-Tappet-problems-on-8V-Guzzis-permed-2012&s=a770071de526c08e23337ca854278669

[Cool Runnings]

Interesting.

So Vasco DG is pete roper. 

The biggest issue with the change to rollers is the increase of mass in the valve train. Having said that it seems to be a total non-issue. Earlier engines that get converted to rollers have shims inserted under the inlet valve springs to increase seating poundage and one presumes help prevent float at higher RPM. From 2015 the valve springs have been changed negating the need for the shims.

 Certainly the extra mass doesn't seem to impact on performance at all . My mate Mark and I went into town to get his bike inspected for rego and I decided to give my bus a bit of a squirt across the Plains Road. I'm running one of Mark's maps with a 500 higher rev limit and I was running it up to the limiter through the gears. I realised when I hit 220kph that we'd just stuck a new tyre on Mark's bike so perhaps I shouldn't of been encouraging him to act the goat! When we got to Queanbeyan he said he'd been perplexed as he'd hit the limiter at 215 and couldn't work out why for a few seconds. Yup, he was in 5th. Tee-hee! Anyway it went 'Blurp-Blurp-Blurp!' Quite happily and nothing escaped out of the head at 8,750 so it seems the roller set-up isn't in any way limiting of performance.

 And no, we don't usually ride like that on the public road but it is my high speed test track. Well surfaced, no gates or houses good visibility for wildlife etc. safe enough for a quick squirt.

 Pete

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?315242-Flat-Tappet-problems-on-8V-Guzzis-permed-2012/page2

[Vasco DG]

Its scarcely a secret Mate

[56Pan]

I have mentioned this before but some dealers are in denial about the issue. To me they are either lying through their teeth or are incompetent (don't know how to do the job) or the factory is telling them there is no problem with the design if the bike is maintained correctly.
All evidence now points to a design fault that will inevitably lead to failure. If there is any justice the factory should communicate this to it's dealers and authorise the replacement of the parts. But I bet there is no hope of that now.

It truly is a 15 minute job to find out if your engine has roller lifters or not.  You can't go by the VIN list that was posted here a while back, at least for a '12 Norge.  Mine was flat tappets according to that list, but I pulled the valve cover on the R.H. head and it is most assuredly a roller lifter engine.

[jim mac]

I don't know what the situation is in the UK. From what I've heard the UK importer seems to be particularly obtuse in regard to its customer base.

Pete

I have been told by Piaggio Uk that it needs to be a Guzzi dealer, that means the sole dealer in Scotland - no faith in them at all.

I have a 2012 Norge with flats,  is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?

[JeffOlson]

Perhaps Ewan McGregor could assist you in dealing with the Scottish dealer!

[Wayne Orwig]

I have a 2012 Norge with flats,  is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?

I suspect you can do it. The only 'tricky' part is releasing the pressure on the cam chains. And of course making 100% certain that the cams are timed properly when reinstall. Nothing magical though.

[MGrego]

I have a 2012 Norge with flats,  is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?

You can absolutely do it yourself -- If you can crab an engine, this is a piece of cake --

The kit for the Norge  is the easiest conversion, the heads don't have to come off.  Pete's directions for the procedure are great, just follow them step by step.  I removed the tank and fairing.  I spent more time figuring out how the fairing went back on than doing the conversion itself.

Go for it --

[hauto]

Was thinking about finding a early stelvio to buy.Unless I hit the power ball,ha ha.Odds are it will still be a flat tappet.I'm able to do the conversion myself,but what can I expect with getting any warranty parts.How much should I devalue the purchase price?

[Vasco DG]

I have been told by Piaggio Uk that it needs to be a Guzzi dealer, that means the sole dealer in Scotland - no faith in them at all.

I have a 2012 Norge with flats,  is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?

Jim, have a squizz at the video I put up. It's not hard.

Pete.

[molly]

I have been told by Piaggio Uk that it needs to be a Guzzi dealer, that means the sole dealer in Scotland - no faith in them at all.

I have a 2012 Norge with flats,  is checking them something that I could do myself - I can crab a frame and take out a gearbox etc - but would it be beyond my capabilities ?

The best people in the UK are Twiggers Motorcycles in Loughborough to deal with the problem. I know it's way from Scotland but once you have established you have a flat tappet motor they will be able to get the conversion done with the least amount of hassle. Worth a phone call for some free advise come what may.

[jim mac]

Jim, have a squizz at the video I put up. It's not hard.

Pete.

the presence of the chain, and getting it set up '100%' right is a bit scary, or am i just being a big wooze ?

[Wayne Orwig]

Wuss......
As long as you aren't  a lawyer, you can do it.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Wuss......
As long as you aren't  a lawyer, you can do it.

How's our good solicitor doing? Haven't heard from him for a while..

[Vasco DG]

As long as you are careful you won't loose the timing. Even if you do restoring it is easy and you obviously pull the motor through by hand a couple of times to re-check and make sure nothing collides.

Pete

[Vasco DG]

Was thinking about finding a early stelvio to buy.Unless I hit the power ball,ha ha.Odds are it will still be a flat tappet.I'm able to do the conversion myself,but what can I expect with getting any warranty parts.How much should I devalue the purchase price?

Sorry missed this. It really depends on where you are. Kits vary in price depending which one is needed and it *Can* be advantageous to buy from an alternative market, (ie. Europe from the USA or the USA from Australia or NZ) but this is very dependent on pricing policies and exchange rates.

Basically though if you are looking at a flat tappet Stelvio it will most likely need a 'C' kit if it's an early model. Without going into a wordy explanation of how to cheat and do it cheaper the kit retails for about $1,600AU and at the moment the US equivalent is roughly similar. Installing a 'C' kit on an early 'Small tank' Stelvio and doing the sump clean etc. will, at a guess, be about a ten hour job. Add in oil and filter plus sump gaskets and it isn't cheap. I'd knock 2.5K off the asking price of the bike hasn't been rollerised.

Pete

[DC950]

This Bulletin will most likely turn into a deal like the Hydro motor, goes on & on w/bikes out there and owners haven't a clue there is a fix cause they don't go to the dealer for work or ask the dealer about campaigns that are open on their VIN.

I don't come on this site much anymore since I parted out my race Guzzi.  The SPII has been sitting with an electrical problem for nearly a decade so I ride the heaps.

It's sad to see that with new Moto Guzzis, it's the same s**t, different decade.  Never thought I'd be glad I'm too poor to buy to an 8v Stelvio.

But it is nice to see that Peter Roper is still the glue that holds it all together for Guzzi people.

Thanks Pete!

[motrhead]

My '11 Stelvio has about 56K km. I got it with 30K at the end of '14, and am pretty sure it has not been rollerized. Last time it was serviced a couple valves were a tiny bit tight, but so far things are stable...but I know what to expect when I do look.
 I am picking up my Buell Ulysses Wednesday, and will look into rollerizing the Stelvio this spring, but if the Buell works as well as I expect, I may let the next owner deal with the big girl. Even though the Stelvio is super comfy, and is just an awesome bike...it's heavy. It was fine riding to Inuvik in the gravel, but I just can't take it that far off road. I would probably be better off with a Norge, but I can see me ending up with a late model Griso instead. My LeMans will always be my Guzzi baby.

[lost]

I'll post up a couple of pics again later this morning so people like 'Lost' can see what to look for to confirm one way or another whether a machine is flat or roller. It's a very easy check, most important thing is to be careful removing the plug caps.

Pete

I appreciate the pictures, responses and explanations. I went to the other dealer in my area and he had no problem checking. I now have pictures of my valves at 11370 miles and they are showing wear. A claim has been submitted and hopefully before spring parts will be available. I would post the pictures but am unable to get them into the forum. I appreciate everyone's patience with a subject that has been discussed a lot. I am sure others new to the forum also will appreciate the heads up. Definitely worth having it checked out. Even though it will cost me money it is worth it to protect my investment.

Jim

[LBC Tenni]

I just got my rollerised GRiSO back from Thousand Oaks Powersports. I only rode it the 50 miles home, but it's running better than ever. Less clatter, no more lumpy idle, and no more popping on decel. And somehow they got Piaggio to cover kit AND labor. I only paid $200 for dropping and cleaning the sump. I dealt with Alex, Brian, and Eddie. Great guys. They will be the only shop touching my GRiSO henceforth. I am very relieved to have found a great dealer shop not too far from home. 

[canuguzzi]

I just got my rollerised GRiSO back from Thousand Oaks Powersports. I only rode it the 50 miles home, but it's running better than ever. Less clatter, no more lumpy idle, and no more popping on decel. And somehow they got Piaggio to cover kit AND labor. I only paid $200 for dropping and cleaning the sump. I dealt with Alex, Brian, and Eddie. Great guys. They will be the only shop touching my GRiSO henceforth. I am very relieved to have found a great dealer shop not too far from home. 

 :1:

Great news. If they covered parts AND labor for your out of warranty bike (2011), they should be willing to do it for everyone else too. The difference between swallowing because its easier to follow the herd and standing up for yourself and what is right.

Coincidence that it was reported to NHTSA and a lot of noise made over this issue? In a pigs eye.

[oldbike54]

 My best guess is that Piaggio is responding more to people like Pete , and some of the other dealers than they are to any Govt agency . NHTSA simply doesn't work that fast .

 Dusty

[canuguzzi]

My best guess is that Piaggio is responding more to people like Pete , and some of the other dealers than they are to any Govt agency . NHTSA simply doesn't work that fast .

 Dusty

Horsepoop. They are responding to people writing letters directly to the CEO, they are reposnding to people posting complaints in spite of being told to suck it up and pay for it themselves. They are responding to those who didn't sit back and just dig into their own pockets and pay for something they shouldn't. They are responding to the NHTSA complaint because it is viewable by everyone with an Internet connection.

You have no idea how fast the NHTSA works nor do you know how many people wrote letters. What we do know is that people were told, right on this forum that there was nothing that could be done.

We know that people were told to shut up and stop complaining, that it was just the way it was and that it was the price to pay for owning a Moto Guzzi.

Its all there Dusty, all of it. The mockery, telling people they were wrong, that it wasn't this or that. That everyone should just pay up and deal with it. Who said what is available to anyone that bothers to look.

Well, some didn't. Some took action and did more than just piling on anyone who complained about how MG was dealing with the problem.

That is why. Guess all you want.

[oldbike54]

Horsepoop. They are responding to people writing letters directly to the CEO, they are reposnding to people posting complaints in spite of being told to suck it up and pay for it themselves. They are responding to those who didn't sit back and just dig into their own pockets and pay for something they shouldn't. They are responding to the NHTSA complaint because it is viewable by everyone with an Internet connection.

That is why.

 Never mind , of course you are 100% correct 

  Dusty

[LowRyter]

well whatever.

NP fought the good fight despite lots of naysaying.  For some reason it looks like things are moving in the right direction.

[JeffOlson]

I just got my rollerised GRiSO back from Thousand Oaks Powersports. I only rode it the 50 miles home, but it's running better than ever. Less clatter, no more lumpy idle, and no more popping on decel. And somehow they got Piaggio to cover kit AND labor. I only paid $200 for dropping and cleaning the sump. I dealt with Alex, Brian, and Eddie. Great guys. They will be the only shop touching my GRiSO henceforth. I am very relieved to have found a great dealer shop not too far from home. 

Nice!