What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin

[Kev m]

I keep reading comments about the money they cost.

2016 Iron 883 $8849
2016 1200 Custom $10,889
2016 48 (1200cc Bobber) $11,199
2016 1200LT (touring w/shield and bags) $11,799

2016 Dyna Street Bob $13,699
2016 Dyna Low Rider $14,399
2016 Dyna Fat Bob $15,899
2016 Dyna Switchback (Touring model with shield and bags) $17,199

ABS/security systems (and I believe keyless ignition) add about $1k to those prices, but freight and prep is generally highly negotiable.

Those prices sure sound competitive to me, especially when comparing to the V7 and Cali 1400 line respectively.

[bad Chad]

Exactly!  Why would anyone buy a Chevy, when they could buy an Alfa??  But that's what happens here in the M/C market.

[Sheepdog]

Kev, let me give you the real reason that guys my age don't care for Harley's. When I was in my teens and twenties, if I parked my Suzuki in a bar's parking lot, 1%.s would break it and beat me up. If I dared to show up at an ABATE ride, I was forced to the the back and invited to "just go home." Despite being hated by most of polite society, I was also rejected by these elitist a-holes because I didn't conform to their Harley paradigm. I worked through it, but never forgot how these guys behaved. When I see the Nuova Harley riders glorify the jerks that mistreated folks like me, it just makes me bow up. I have no interest in "the Motor Company" because I can't forget how poorly their riders treated me when I was trying to fit in. I'm sure Harley produces a good and modern product...but I find myself unimpressed.

[Silver Goose]

Unlike the Harley riders, you know, The rugged individuals that all look alike. Most of the MG riders I know actually ride their bikes and not just pose after a hard twenty min. ride to the bar. MG have soul and the owners have a great love affair, for the most part, with their bikes. Many MGs have high mileage and great stories about their travels. The Harley Davidson group, for the most part, ride an image and not a passion.

I have owned many bikes, but after owning several MGs starting with the 750 Ambassador in '71, the MG has a permanent place in my heart.

Besides, I don't own a pair of assless pants and/or a bandana.

$.02

[George_S]

You're obviously just an argumentative person, even arguing things that weren't even said by me. I never commented on nor made a distinction with regard to  'normal operation'- whatever you identify that as - as opposed to idling. My comment was on temperatures. Period. What difference does it make how those temperatures get there? But they do get there and it's not good for the engine, which is why H-D addressed it.   I even specifically referenced police use which does mean quite a bit of slow speed and idling. Same as being in a traffic jam on a 'civilian' Harley.   

Oh wait, you said you are choosing to ignore my statements. Which ones? Only ones that conflict with yours?
You have your experience, and I have mine. And obviously, H-D had similar or they wouldn't have addressed it with their "parade mode" feature.

I'm not facing any "facts" from you. I'm just ignoring your rote statements of the matter as fact without any support as much as you're ignoring my statements of experience. Thing if I'm not saying it isn't sometimes or even often true. From the start I've said it's not always or automatically true. So it takes only a few instances where it is not to disprove the universality of the generalization. It's much harder to prove the ultimate truth of an absolute.

And again you're referencing sitting and idling.... Which is not considered "normal" operation, even if that happens in fleet motor cop service.

And I'd love to know how the HD techs (I've worked with many since the 90's) knew the differences in front and rear head temps, especially since I'm pretty sure there was only one head temp sensor and little to know data logging going on especially in the early systems before parade mode.

[Kev m]

You made statements of absolutes.

I'm simply arguing against the absolutes.

Then you threw in some passive aggressive insults.

And no, I didn't say I was ignoring you. I said I was ignoring your claims of facts (with regards to the absoluteness) without support.

I've explained why Harley adopted the system, it wasn't a mechanical problem (I.E. causing harm to the bike), it was a problem for the rider under certain circumstances.

Though I'll admit it became a bigger issue as emissions standards tightened, motors grew in size, and the cooling strategies began to interfere with the riders under those conditions.

None of this proves your position of absoluteness.

[George_S]

Very funny.  smh.

[Rox]

I just like them because they are quirky and different  ....

[lucian]

I keep reading comments about the money they cost.

2016 Iron 883 $8849
2016 1200 Custom $10,889
2016 48 (1200cc Bobber) $11,199
2016 1200LT (touring w/shield and bags) $11,799

2016 Dyna Street Bob $13,699
2016 Dyna Low Rider $14,399
2016 Dyna Fat Bob $15,899
2016 Dyna Switchback (Touring model with shield and bags) $17,199

ABS/security systems (and I believe keyless ignition) add about $1k to those prices, but freight and prep is generally highly negotiable.

Those prices sure sound competitive to me, especially when comparing to the V7 and Cali 1400 line respectively.

These are all entry level Harley's None of which can compete with the 1400 other than in a straight line for the first 100ft. I would imagine a new RK would set you back at least 20 grand, twice what a new cali could be got for. Hell if you shopped around now I bet you could get a v7 and a 14 custom for the cost of one RK. Over priced IMO.

[Rough Edge racing]

 The way I see it in the real world is Harley and MG appeal to riders with a different set of needs for a bike...Comparisons always come down to the slow Harleys.....What is slow? The new 750 MG is very slow compared to many other contemporary 750's and not any faster than a 60's 650 Triumph. But in reality the bike is fun to ride and feels faster than the numbers say it is  according to what the owners report.
 

[Kev m]

Kev, let me give you the real reason that guys my age don't care for Harley's. When I was in my teens and twenties, if I parked my Suzuki in a bar's parking lot, 1%.s would break it and beat me up. If I dared to show up at an ABATE ride, I was forced to the the back and invited to "just go home." Despite being hated by most of polite society, I was also rejected by these elitist a-holes because I didn't conform to their Harley paradigm. I worked through it, but never forgot how these guys behaved. When I see the Nuova Harley riders glorify the jerks that mistreated folks like me, it just makes me bow up. I have no interest in "the Motor Company" because I can't forget how poorly their riders treated me when I was trying to fit in. I'm sure Harley produces a good and modern product...but I find myself unimpressed.

I dunno. Seems a silly reason to shun a motorcycle. I mean, shun the people that's fine, but judge the cycle itself on its own merits. If you don't like it, then don't ride it. But those who constantly shyte on the bikes and their fans are actually just doing the same thing you're complaining about.

The way I see it in the real world is Harley and MG appeal to riders with a different set of needs for a bike...

Well certainly Harley just plain isn't building anything for the Norge, Griso, Stelvio crowd.

It's a shame, cause they could be - the Buells filled some of those needs very nicely.

The BUelysses was competitive to the Stelvio.

My S3T felt VERY similar to the Griso I rode, and had very similar performance numbers.

Hell the XR1200 was too.

09 XR1200 79 hp / 68 torques 12.25 1/4 mile, and especially with the XRX had the suspension, brakes, and handling to match!

...Comparisons always come down to the slow Harleys.....What is slow?

These comparisons by MG owners are even sillier

10 883L 48 hp / 48 torques 14.60 1/4 mile
09 V7C 39 hp / 36 torques 14.57 1/4 mile
13 V7R 39 hp / 41 torques 14.29 1/4 mile


11 Cali Black Eagle 68 hp / 58 torques 13.35 1/4 mile
07 1200N 57 hp / 64 torques 13.21 1/4 mile

11 Dyna Switchback 68 hp / 86 torques 13.66 1/4 mile
13 Cali 1400C 84 hp / 73 torques 13.3 1/4 mile


And lets remember, you're not getting more power out of a V7, and I don't suspect much is left on the table for a Cali. But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works.

These are all entry level Harley's None of which can compete with the 1400 other than in a straight line for the first 100ft. I would imagine a new RK would set you back at least 20 grand, twice what a new cali could be got for. Hell if you shopped around now I bet you could get a v7 and a 14 custom for the cost of one RK. Over priced IMO.

No actually they are NOT ALL entry-level Harleys.

And no, as a matter of fact not only can they compete with a 1400 in a straight line, the Sportster will leave it behind STOCK in the 1/4 mile and I've convinced a number of Guzzi riders that a Sporty can handle by riding with me or riding my current Sporty.

The Switchback, and a Dyna Low Rider, and probably a Dyna Fat Bob will compete very well with a 1400.

And why are you comparing a Road King to a Cali Custom?

If you're going to compare apples-to-apples, at least compare the Road King to the Cali Touring.

2016 Road King - $18,749  (plus $1k for ABS/security) - $19,749
2016 Cali 1400T - $18,490

I'm not telling anyone to like a Harley if they don't, that's fine. Just be realistic about the facts.

People here keep forgetting that I love Guzzis too... I'm not coming at this with prejudice against either brand.

[redrider]

My earlier post of "everything" was meant to convey that everything about a Guzzi is more attractive to me than a Harley. Further refinement of the statement hinges upon my like for standard, dual sport and Café style bikes of European lineage. I do not like cruisers. Period. No matter who makes them.  Let me put it another way. I prefer Red Headed Women. Others do not.

[redrider90]

 But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works.

If you're going to compare apples-to-apples, at least compare the Road King to the Cali Touring.

2016 Road King - $18,749  (plus $1k for ABS/security) - $19,749
2016 Cali 1400T - $18,490

So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you  "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner".  If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious  setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion.  And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.

[Bonafide Bob]

<So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you  "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner".  If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious  setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion.  And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.>

Tuning on all brands is to meet Government regulation. I have spent a few bucks on my Stelvio to get it to run as I think it should.
Bob

[Triple Jim]

Tuning on all brands is to meet Government regulation. I have spent a few bucks on my Stelvio to get it to run as I think it should.

You may be right, Bob, but then how do the smaller displacement sport bikes from Japan, Italy, and Germany (etc.) put out 180 hp stock, and meet the regulations?

[Rough Edge racing]

You may be right, Bob, but then how do the smaller displacement sport bikes from Japan, Italy, and Germany (etc.) put out 180 hp stock, and meet the regulations?

  State of the art engine designs with properly developed electronic management systems....How ever, some of the best have flaws in the power flow that fussy riders may try to tune away with aftermarket modifications...

[Bonafide Bob]

You may be right, Bob, but then how do the smaller displacement sport bikes from Japan, Italy, and Germany (etc.) put out 180 hp stock, and meet the regulations?

 Getting those HP numbers and meeting regulations is a lot easier with a liquid cooled engine, but not with a air cooled engine like we all prefer.
 Bob

[LowRyter]

This a Guzzi Forum and all Harleys suck.  So do Beemers. 


 

And looking at that leaking fuel line under the airbox on my EV, I am not terribly happy with Guzzi either.

[Triple Jim]

Getting those HP numbers and meeting regulations is a lot easier with a liquid cooled engine, but not with a air cooled engine like we all prefer.

Again, you have a good point, but the difference between Harley engines and 180 hp sport bikes is so enormous that I don't think the cooling type explains all of it.  In fact there are air cooled motorcycles that  meet government regulations and have much higher hp/cc numbers than Harley.  The Griso is an example.

I don't mind that a US company is surviving in a very competitive market, and that they are likely to be getting income from selling accessory parts for new motorcycles they make.  It's no different from car dealers selling expensive options on new cars.

[Kev m]

So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you  "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner".

Oy vey.

Did I compare the RK and Cali Touring on performance specs?

Ok, you add in the price of a new crossover pipe, a second set of tires (cause the Cali wears em out at 2x the rate), and at least one paid for valve adjustment vs. the RK with ABS/Security, and another grand for pipes and an AC.

We're at about 20.5k vs. 19.5k, with the RK being faster, but a slight handling edge to the Cali (assuming anyone wants to ride either of these beasts that aggressively).

Oh yeah, and if you want to sell or trade the RK you're WAY ahead cause that Cali is going to cost you THOUSANDS MORE in depreciation.

There ya go, apples-to-apples.

If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious  setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion.  And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.

Let's see my Breva 1100 was seen by Speakers, Pete, and Eraldo before I had to spend $1000+ with Guzzitech to get it to run without pinging.

And any flat-tapped 4V Carc is going to cost at least $1500 more for a roller conversion?

And as long as I've been here I've seen people bitching about the fueling on late-model bikes - Cali 1100s, smallblocks, CARCS... now I'm pretty darn happy with my V7, but my experiences with multiple Harley EFI bikes were that they ran fine from the factory and I didn't need to chase hp and a tuner. But I easily COULD if I wanted to.

[Kev m]

You may be right, Bob, but then how do the smaller displacement sport bikes from Japan, Italy, and Germany (etc.) put out 180 hp stock, and meet the regulations?

Different horses for different courses.

How do they get those #'s:

* Water Cooling
* DOHC
* Shim/tappet or Desmo Valve Adjustments

The Harley/Indian/Victory etc. crowd is looking for ease of maintenance. Change fluids and ride.

MOST of them aren't looking for that level of power.

[rocker59]

The EFI Harleys I've ridden over the past 8 or 9 years have all been flawless in their fueling.

[oldbike54]

                                                           Potato potato potato potato


                                                              Guzzi Guzzi Guzzi Guzzi

  Dusty

[Kev m]

In fact there are air cooled motorcycles that  meet government regulations and have much higher hp/cc numbers than Harley.  The Griso is an example.

06 Griso 1100 74 hp / 58 ft. lbs. torque 12.45 1/4 mile

09 XR1200 79 hp / 68 ft. lbs. torque 12.25 1/4 mile

09 Griso 1200 8V 95 hp / 71 ft. lbs. torque 11.51 1/4 mile
15 Griso 1200 8V 98 hp / 72 ft. lbs. torque 11.42 1/4 mile

The difference between the first two and the second two is the valve train (2V/Cylinder vs. 4V/cylinder).

COULD Harley do the same? Mostly likely, but their customers sadly aren't interested.

[oldbike54]

06 Griso 1100 74 hp / 58 ft. lbs. torque 12.45 1/4 mile

09 XR1200 79 hp / 68 ft. lbs. torque 12.25 1/4 mile

09 Griso 1200 8V 95 hp / 71 ft. lbs. torque 11.51 1/4 mile
15 Griso 1200 8V 98 hp / 72 ft. lbs. torque 11.42 1/4 mile

The difference between the first two and the second two is the valve train (2V/Cylinder vs. 4V/cylinder).

COULD Harley do the same? Mostly likely, but their customers sadly aren't interested.

 

                                                                   Potato

  Dusty

[Rough Edge racing]

COULD Harley do the same? Mostly likely, but their customers sadly aren't interested.

 Yup, Harley dealers with Buells didn't know what to do with them for the most part....And what happened to the water cooled high performance Harley a few years ago?
 Harley has control of a huge niche market and they apparently happy to stay there...

[Bonafide Bob]

Again, you have a good point, but the difference between Harley engines and 180 hp sport bikes is so enormous that I don't think the cooling type explains all of it.  In fact there are air cooled motorcycles that  meet government regulations and have much higher hp/cc numbers than Harley.  The Griso is an example.

I don't mind that a US company is surviving in a very competitive market, and that they are likely to be getting income from selling accessory parts for new motorcycles they make.  It's no different from car dealers selling expensive options on new cars.

Their marketing and dealer network is second to none and that is reflected by the number of bikes sold.
 Bob 

[rocker59]

Yup, Harley dealers with Buells didn't know what to do with them for the most part....And what happened to the water cooled high performance Harley a few years ago?
 Harley has control of a huge niche market and they apparently happy to stay there...

Who wouldn't be happy with 50% ?!?!?!

[Triple Jim]

Different horses for different courses.

How do they get those #'s:

* Water Cooling
* DOHC
* Shim/tappet or Desmo Valve Adjustments

The Harley/Indian/Victory etc. crowd is looking for ease of maintenance. Change fluids and ride.

MOST of them aren't looking for that level of power.

The point was that Harley appears to be holding back on performance to some extent, so they can make some money on performance enhancing accessories.  I don't think anyone has presented a valid argument against that.  I also have no problem with a marketing strategy that helps keep a company profitable in a competitive market.  If one doesn't like it, one doesn't need to buy the product. 

[Rough Edge racing]

Who wouldn't be happy with 50% ?!?!?!

 Women.............. ...............