What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin

[leafman60]

Technically speaking, the rear cylinder on a tandem V can tend to run slightly hotter than the front. So what?  Adjustments are made to cope with it and, practically speaking, this has not caused any significant issue. There's a lot of them out there.

[bpreynolds]

Due to mounting and frame differences, it's difficult IMHO to greatly compare engine to engine so here I just note some differences in general of my rides on both bikes.  Since I've only ridden the Dyna and the 1200 Sporty, that's all I have to compare.  The Dyna felt closer to my 1100 Calis as per feel, suspension, and even motor kinda but I can't remotely keep up with which motor was in that Dyna those years ago.  Between these latter two I preferred the Goose by far.  I just felt more at home on it and my riding more akin to where the meat of the power was and that sorta thing.

But as per the Sporty (and I ride my buddy's 1200 regularly and have test driven several), now there are some enjoyable differences IMHO.  Don't get me wrong, I'd still hands down choose any one of my former 4 Calis for an everyday motorcycle.  To me personally the Sporty frame feels too spindly, the motor vibrates your fillings out, and heat dumps on my leg.  Without suspension upgrades of some sort I could not imagine driving one for 80-100 miles a sitting even.  At 75 mph it feels like I'm doing 110 whereas with my Calis at 85 felt more like 60.  Having said that, I seriously love the Sporty and will (shrug) admit that it's a more "fun" ride than my Calis per se.  In the curves I almost feel like I could toss it around more easily compared to my former Geese.  Roll ons are a blast and my bud's (with modified exhaust) will pretty much smoke my Guzzis from any pickup speed below 70.  It's what many here have already cited, a pleasurable "visceral" feel. 

[Kev m]

Bp, what year Sporty? I'm guessing <04 from your description because the rubbermounts don't vibrate anything out of your teeth. I swear my Guzzi big blocks transmitted more vibration to the rider than either of our rubbermount Sportsters.

And as for power, comfort, handling I'll put our 07 XL1200Lr up against a Tonti Cali anyday. They were close in dimensions, power, handling, comfort etc.

But yeah our Lr has tall Progressive shocks (the very same ones that were on my Jackal for a few years), the taller front suspension from the 1200R models (and the dual disc brakes from it too), a taller/thicker Mustang seat for comfort etc.

Ask Stormtruck who put a ~600 miles on it this summer over a short weekend, or Bill whom he chased while on his Griso.

I think both were surprised by it.

[prof_stack]

I've had both Harley (4 v-twins, 2 big, 2 Sporty) and SB Guzzi (4 of them).  Since I live 4 miles from MotoInt, and don't tour, the choice is simple.

Seriously, there is much good about both v-twins.  The 750 Breva is smoother than the 883 Sporty at highway speed.

[Rough Edge racing]

 On my tube frame  Sportster engine Buell  the rear cylinder is close to the riders right leg.  There's a heat shield that I removed to clean up the looks so to speak. I can feel the heat on my leg in warm weather but it's never down right uncomfortable. In general the engine runs warmer than some bike riders are used to....quality synthetic oil is a good idea..
  Engines are heat pumps and it is well documented that so long as detonation is under control and intake air is cooler,an engine will be more efficient at higher temperatures. Modern vehicles run at 210 F degrees, some higher, they make good power and have a long lifespans...NASCAR engines continue to build power to about 240 F degrees. My vintage 650 Triumph race bike turns it's best times with a hot engine.... Of course there's a fine line between hot and too hot and it's harder to maintain with an air cooled engine.

[bpreynolds]

Bp, what year Sporty? I'm guessing <04 from your description because the rubbermounts don't vibrate anything out of your teeth. I swear my Guzzi big blocks transmitted more vibration to the rider than either of our rubbermount Sportsters.

And as for power, comfort, handling I'll put our 07 XL1200Lr up against a Tonti Cali anyday. They were close in dimensions, power, handling, comfort etc.

I think both were surprised by it.

Honestly, I'm not sure but I think his "might" be an '04.  When started you can watch the handlebars move at rapid vibration, almost like you are grabbing hold of the bike when you first start out.  But the overall point to my post is that I very much enjoy the differences of the Sporty, and may have even preferred it for certain kinds of riding.  I too was greatly surprised the first time I rode my friend's bike.  All those years I just assumed HDs were crappy handling, overweight, slow bikes. 

If asked, however (what? Shut up, nobody's asking?    ) I'd still choose my V7 Stone over my former Calis or the HDs.  It just suits me, mostly.

[Kev m]

Honestly, I'm not sure but I think his "might" be an '04.  When started you can watch the handlebars move at rapid vibration, almost like you are grabbing hold of the bike when you first start out.

It's almost certainly an 03 or earlier - OR IT'S BROKEN.

Seriously, HD engineers designed the rubbermount bikes around comfort and specifically vibration at the bars. An engineer friend of mine who worked for them for a period said they measured vibration at the bars as part of the design process.

The Rubbermount sportsters are so much smoother than the solidmounts that they changed from handlebar risers with rubber isolating bushings on the solidmounts, to solid billet aluminum risers on the rubbermounts.

I'm not exaggerating when I say it transmits less vibration to me as a rider than did my 00 Jackal or 06 Breva (or 96 R1100RS, or a number of other bikes I've owned).

In contrast my 1993 Sportster used to leave my hands and feet numb, and would crack parts or vibrate them loose.

Our 04, 05, and current 07 Sportsters are completely different beasts from that perspective, unless I hug the air cleaner with my right knee, then I have a slight window into what the 93 was like.

They really did an great job of redesigning and improving the Sportster in almost every way while largely preserving the look and overall feel. The only real downside to the rubbermount bikes is that they made them about 50# heavier than the last of the solidmounts and, in most cases, they lowered them. But the later is easily addressed even if you're stuck with the former without large dollar investments.

[George_S]

I too owned a Harley a few years back and here's my take. I did not experience the "paint can shaker" at idle. It was about equal to my Cali 14 at idle. It's an established fact that the rear cylinder does get hotter than the front. That's not open for debate. What is open is just how hot is too hot? I'm sure there are many opinions on that. The bottom line on that is if you're moving it doesn't matter. If you're in a stop and go traffic jam when the outside temp is 95 degrees, it does matter and it could matter A LOT. That's why there are accessory and aftermarket electric cooling fans available, and not just for police bikes. Many owners install them.

[Kev m]

I too owned a Harley a few years back and here's my take. I did not experience the "paint can shaker" at idle. It was about equal to my Cali 14 at idle. It's an established fact that the rear cylinder does get hotter than the front. That's not open for debate. What is open is just how hot is too hot? I'm sure there are many opinions on that. The bottom line on that is if you're moving it doesn't matter. If you're in a stop and go traffic jam when the outside temp is 95 degrees, it does matter and it could matter A LOT. That's why there are accessory and aftermarket electric cooling fans available, and not just for police bikes. Many owners install them.

Established fact?

Well, I'll say this, it does seem like on EFI bikes the temps are a lot closer and I do get reports (and have seen) the rear hotter than the front more often than I did on carb bikes. I do think the intake manifold charge and offset timing on the carbureted models made for the biggest differences.

Here's a report on a TC motor which was studied extensively to look at and regulate cooling:

http://www.wardspartswerks.com/tc-cooling-story.html

The Hot rear cylinder

"The rear cylinder runs way hotter than the front cylinder." This is something I have heard many times over, from all kinds of sources. After gaining the ability to "see" my front and rear CHT I have consistently witnessed that the rear is hotter but not significantly. The greatest difference I have seen is 30F higher on the rear, but that is only after extended high RPM operation out on the highway. Slow moving in town, about 40 MPH and below, the front and rear CHTs tend to equalize rather quickly. Anyway, most of the time during moderate cruising and non-extreme operation, the rear CHT is only about 10-15F hotter than the front.

Granted it's been years since I looked into it, and I can't find any of the articles or discussions I've seen, even the thermo images that showed highly comparable temps (yes sometimes, but NOT ALWAYS hotter at the rear).

But again, when true, it's not an issue. It's not as black and white as many seem to want to believe.

[oldbike54]

 Having ridden a couple of examples of every generation of Harley , yes , all the way back to a JD , honestly , everyone left me with a feeling of disconnectedness . Hard to define the sensation , just that I was merely a passenger and not really connected to the bike . Obviously the old models with rigid rear sections and very little in the way of front suspension let the rider feel every bump , and up until the advent of rubber mounting and the later Beta motors the operator was treated to a "soothing" vibration  Still , simply could never develop a relationship with any HD , even the sportier models .

 Dusty

[Kev m]

Having ridden a couple of examples of every generation of Harley , yes , all the way back to a JD , honestly , everyone left me with a feeling of disconnectedness . Hard to define the sensation , just that I was merely a passenger and not really connected to the bike . Obviously the old models with rigid rear sections and very little in the way of front suspension let the rider feel every bump , and up until the advent of rubber mounting and the later Beta motors the operator was treated to a "soothing" vibration  Still , simply could never develop a relationship with any HD , even the sportier models .

 Dusty

Well, that be the best reason ever not to ride one.

Ironically it's about the opposite of how I've ever felt about one, even the ones I don't particulary like as in say an old Fat Boy.

Honestly the closest I've ever felt to that was probably my old Oilhead which really felt too much like an appliance and I was just "on-board".

Maybe there were some press loaners I felt that way about too... The RT was similar if I recall.

[Bonafide Bob]

I have ridden H.D's since the mid 1950's. I have liked some more than others, my latest and current is a 2006 Dyna that the speed O just rolled over to 100,000 miles ,it set the mark high for how I  will gauge future motorcycles.
 I bought my first Moto Guzzi last year and have put 12,000 miles on it in the 9 months I have owned it, hopefully it will give me the great service my H.D Dyna has.

  Bob

[lucian]

I contemplated a buddy's 09 RK that had every street legal mod you could put on the engine. Stage four big bore, cams , pipes, ignition, ect. ect . Dealers notes on the test ride said "this is a very fast motor cycle"  Truth is it pulled like crazy for about two gears and then ran out of steam  quickly as the revs climbed. The starter would barely crank the thing over and it was so loud I cant imagine it would have taken a sticker. With over $10,000 in mod's it wouldn't even come close to the performance and handling of a stock 1400 at half the costs. I am sure reliability would suffer greatly with those type of mods to the HD. And in stock form they seemed all show and no go. I realize a cruiser is a cruiser, until you have ridden the Moto Guzzi version. It truly is one of a kind in the segment. I just can't get my head around the HD pricing for what you get performance wise. As I understand it you pay extra on a HD for abs and cruise control and just about everything else you would expect to come on a $20,000 bike . I admit aesthetically some HD models are quite nice to look at, and resale, dealer network, and the build quality are all in there favor, but all around performance in stock form? certainly not.

[LowRyter]

RPMs

[kingoffleece]

Let's see-I had the first SuperGlide (boat-tail), first year Softtail, First year rubbermount SuperGlide, a 78 LowRider, and now have a 2003 RK that I can ride whenever.  I preferred the chain drive 4 speed with sprocket swaps best.

I was really expecting the Norge/Stelvio/Griso to vibrate much more than they do.  It's really, for me, a non issue.  I'm very fond of the MG feel.

Like I said, it seems my Tunnderbird 1600 (2010) felt much more like any of my HD bikes that my Norge.

Regardless, I like them all!

[redrider90]

HDs are to the US as Guzzis are to Europe. Guzzi always has always designed for the European market because it is a European company. How many models since the first V 700 came out never made it to the US?
HD created a genre much the same way Nike has done with athletic shoes. I know a lot lot more about athletic shoes and can say with certainty that 90% of what Nike makes are sub standard designs and even worse substandard manufacturing.( I am not saying that HDs are the MC equivalent of Nike shoes).  My experience with HDs goes back to the AMF days and anybody and just about everybody over the age of 40 knows what AMF MCs were like. That last shovel head (Super Glide) I bought new in 72 sent me to Italy in 73. So my roots have long been firmly planted in Italian bikes.
I have noticed that HD is doing an awful lot of advertising on what little TV I watch (mostly end of year football bowl games and full time basketball nut job). They push what got them there and as long as the profit margin and stock price is good they will continue. A good business model is a good business model. But are the years are catching up with them?  I wonder if the "Millennium" generation will be buying the HD brand. Just saying....nothing bad about Harley (except I would never own one again after AMF  )

[redrider90]

Let's see-I had the first SuperGlide (boat-tail),
Regardless, I like them all!

Wow someone who a 71 version Super Glide and you liked it?  I bought the 72 Super Glide, virtually identical except for body work to 71 and it was truly (to quote Ralph Nader) dangerous at any speed. 12K miles in one year and it was gone and replaced with a Ducati V twin.... the anthesis of the 72 Super Glide.

[Kev m]

Let's see-I had the first SuperGlide (boat-tail), first year Softtail, First year rubbermount SuperGlide, a 78 LowRider, and now have a 2003 RK that I can ride whenever.  I preferred the chain drive 4 speed with sprocket swaps best.

<snip>

Like I said, it seems my Tunnderbird 1600 (2010) felt much more like any of my HD bikes that my Norge.

Regardless, I like them all!

All BT's, a Sportster motor might surprise you a bit then on its greater similarity to a 2V Guzzi.

[Kev m]

I also find it interesting that a lot of people who don't like Harleys gave them up before I was in grade school. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

But the machines they had experience with are in many ways nothing like the machines that were available when I started riding or what is available today.

[jas67]

Kinda like another view of what Buell could have done if allowed to.

 :1:

I'd ride one.

[jas67]

Ask Stormtruck who put a ~600 miles on it this summer over a short weekend, or Bill whom he chased while on his Griso.

I think both were surprised by it.

I've ridden this Sporty, and was surprised by it.   The rider is well insulated from the rubber mounted engine's vibration.    The engine performance was what I expected; more relaxed than a Guzzi, nice low end torque.    As Kev mentioned early, torque and power peak are both about 1,000 RPM sooner than the V7.   Handling and braking were better than expected, but, as Kev stated, this bike has been upgraded in both regards.    Overall, it is a nice package.

It's too bad that The Motor Company is so focused on "Low" and forward controls, and no longer sells the XL1200R (Roadster, which is, essentially, what Kev built is into).   The last time I walked around the showroom of our local HD store, all but one of the Sportsters on the floor had forward controls, and most of them were the "Low" models.     I can't blame them though, as ,that is what sells in this country.

[redrider90]

I also find it interesting that a lot of people who don't like Harleys gave them up before I was in grade school. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

But the machines they had experience with are in many ways nothing like the machines that were available when I started riding or what is available today.

I'm one of those who gave up on HD in 73 after owning a 62 Duo Glide (used) and then a new 72 AMF Super Glide. I will save the treatise on what was wrong with the bike (everything). The only thing good about it was I traded it straight up for a new 73 Ducati 750 GT to a small town Berliner dealer. AMF sold Harley back later in the 70's and how long did it take to recover? After that they never built a bike I was interested in much less wanted to pay a premium price for owning an HD.
As for their reliablity and the well advertised "loyalty" this from Motely Fool the online investing mag in  (Feb. 2014) uses Consumer Reports reviews of "customer satisfaction" based on problems to determine if HOG is worth investing is interesting. "Titled Is Harley-Davidson the Worst Motorcycle Money Can Buy?No. But Consumer Reports says it's darn close to it." Note CR is not rating the motorcycles. They are going to the consumers and asking them what they thought of their reliability.

"Long a recognized authority on automotive quality and value for your money in cars, Consumer Reports began branching out to reviewing motorcycles last year, publishing its first-ever report on the most reliable motorcycles from five of the biggest brands -- Harley, BMW (NASDAQOTH:BAMXY), Honda (NYSE:HMC), Kawasaki, and Yamaha. (Polaris' (NYSE:PII) Victory and Indian brands had apparently not made enough of a dent in the market to attract CR's attention by the time of the survey.) What CR discovered from its research is that quality varies "significantly" among brands -- and the best brand, Yamaha, is about six times more reliable than the worst, BMW.

"Only about one Yamaha bike in 10 has experienced a major problem or required a serious repair over the past four years, according to the 4,424 motorcycle owners surveyed by CR. In contrast, about one BMW motorcycle in three has suffered from such a complaint -- and one Harley in four. Here's how the numbers break down:"


Motely Fool continues "Subtler variations in vehicle reliability were found within brands as well. CR categorized them according to "class" of motorcycle, noting that touring motorcycles were most problematic, and cruisers the least. This may have something to do with the fact that, according to CR, "accessories" were the most common problems encountered with bikes. Touring bikes, being designed for comfort in long-distance travel, are likely to be outfitted with more bells and whistles than a standard motorcycle -- and therefore have more accessories on them that can break.
Again, the numbers:"

[URL=http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/problems-by-class_large_zpscl7zy7o8.jpg.html]

And this is what I find interesting. Kind of pops the ballon that people who have not experienced Harley have no right criticizing them. Seems that HD riders are the most loyal of all no matter their reliability is 2nd to last.
Again from the Motley Fool article
"That last fact, the low cost of repairing most motorcycle fix-its, may be the really important news for Harley-Davidson shareholders.
It may help to explain why -- Harley's weak performance on the surveynotwithstandi ng -- CR says Harley owners remain the most brand-loyal of all motorcycle owners, with an astounding 75% saying yes, they'd buy a Harley again.
In turn, the remarkable brand loyalty of Harley-Davidson customers may help to explain why, of the publicly traded motorcycle makers on the survey, Harley carries the highest price-to-earnings ratio, selling for nearly 20 times trailing earnings. Whether that P/E ratio can bear the scrutiny now that Consumer Reports has put a bull's-eye on Harley-Davidson, though, remains to be seen."

By far the biggest surprise for me is that BMW came in last in reliability. So much for Air Heads being smart.   

[rocker59]

Big thumbs-down for Consumer Reports.

Does anyone really pay attention to them, anymore ?

[redrider]

Everything.

[rocker59]

Everything.

¿Qué?

[George_S]

Established fact?

But again, when true, it's not an issue. It's not as black and white as many seem to want to believe.

Um, Kev...defend the brand all you want, but you can't argue with physics. Block the airflow to a cylinder and it's gotta run hotter than one in the airstream. It evidently was both an established fact  AND an issue  enough for H-D to develop this "feature"....

From Popular Mechanics, 2012....

Harley-Davidson's air-cooled V-Twin remains a stubbornly anachronistic signature of the American motorcycle manufacturer, and its most potent expression comes in the form of the 110 cubic inch (1,803cc) Screamin' Eagle lump currently found in the CVO lineup. Producing 122 lb-ft of torque, this is the most powerful Harley engine to date; as such, an oil cooler can only go so in protecting this puppy from soaring temps.

How does Harley keep this mill from melting when mercury hits triple digits? One feature engineered into air-cooled Harley engines is a function called Rear Cylinder Cutout. Because the aft cylinder tends to run warmer since it doesn't benefit from the airflow that hits the front cylinder, RCC seeks to equalize the difference by shutting off fuel and spark to the back cylinder if the engine idles for more than 3 seconds above 288° F. Once the air-only mix drops the combustion chamber temperature to 275° F, normal operation resumes. RCC was introduced in 2008, and was actuated by a cable before the 2009 model year, when throttle-by-wire technology was introduced.

[rocker59]

I thought that was a rider comfort feature.

if the bike is idling in traffic, no air is passing over the front cylinder, either.

But, the front cylinder is not being straddled by the rider, so it's not as big an issue.

[Cool Runnings]

I'm one of those who gave up on HD in 73 after owning a 62 Duo Glide (used) and then a new 72 AMF Super Glide. I will save the treatise on what was wrong with the bike (everything). The only thing good about it was I traded it straight up for a new 73 Ducati 750 GT to a small town Berliner dealer. AMF sold Harley back later in the 70's and how long did it take to recover? After that they never built a bike I was interested in much less wanted to pay a premium price for owning an HD.
As for their reliablity and the well advertised "loyalty" this from Motely Fool the online investing mag in  (Feb. 2014) uses Consumer Reports reviews of "customer satisfaction" based on problems to determine if HOG is worth investing is interesting. "Titled Is Harley-Davidson the Worst Motorcycle Money Can Buy?No. But Consumer Reports says it's darn close to it." Note CR is not rating the motorcycles. They are going to the consumers and asking them what they thought of their reliability.

"Long a recognized authority on automotive quality and value for your money in cars, Consumer Reports began branching out to reviewing motorcycles last year, publishing its first-ever report on the most reliable motorcycles from five of the biggest brands -- Harley, BMW (NASDAQOTH:BAMXY), Honda (NYSE:HMC), Kawasaki, and Yamaha. (Polaris' (NYSE:PII) Victory and Indian brands had apparently not made enough of a dent in the market to attract CR's attention by the time of the survey.) What CR discovered from its research is that quality varies "significantly" among brands -- and the best brand, Yamaha, is about six times more reliable than the worst, BMW.

"Only about one Yamaha bike in 10 has experienced a major problem or required a serious repair over the past four years, according to the 4,424 motorcycle owners surveyed by CR. In contrast, about one BMW motorcycle in three has suffered from such a complaint -- and one Harley in four. Here's how the numbers break down:"


Motely Fool continues "Subtler variations in vehicle reliability were found within brands as well. CR categorized them according to "class" of motorcycle, noting that touring motorcycles were most problematic, and cruisers the least. This may have something to do with the fact that, according to CR, "accessories" were the most common problems encountered with bikes. Touring bikes, being designed for comfort in long-distance travel, are likely to be outfitted with more bells and whistles than a standard motorcycle -- and therefore have more accessories on them that can break.
Again, the numbers:"

[URL=http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/problems-by-class_large_zpscl7zy7o8.jpg.html]

And this is what I find interesting. Kind of pops the ballon that people who have not experienced Harley have no right criticizing them. Seems that HD riders are the most loyal of all no matter their reliability is 2nd to last.
Again from the Motley Fool article
"That last fact, the low cost of repairing most motorcycle fix-its, may be the really important news for Harley-Davidson shareholders.
It may help to explain why -- Harley's weak performance on the surveynotwithstandi ng -- CR says Harley owners remain the most brand-loyal of all motorcycle owners, with an astounding 75% saying yes, they'd buy a Harley again.
In turn, the remarkable brand loyalty of Harley-Davidson customers may help to explain why, of the publicly traded motorcycle makers on the survey, Harley carries the highest price-to-earnings ratio, selling for nearly 20 times trailing earnings. Whether that P/E ratio can bear the scrutiny now that Consumer Reports has put a bull's-eye on Harley-Davidson, though, remains to be seen."

By far the biggest surprise for me is that BMW came in last in reliability. So much for Air Heads being smart.   

Never had even ONE issue with Yamaha. How about that 5 year unlimited mileage warranty! 

[redrider90]

Big thumbs-down for Consumer Reports.

Does anyone really pay attention to them, anymore ?

Rocker,
I am curious as to your comment. After all CR was not testing the bikes and then making a recommendation. They went to over 4000 bike owners and asked them their experience with the make and models and then posted the numbers as statistics.   So besides your bias against CR (BTW I do not read them except for the reliability survey when I bought a new car in 2011) what is your argument against the Motely Fool Article as well as the finding of CR review of reliability. CR has an excellent track record with mapping reliability of automobiles.   
I should have posted the URL http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/17/is-harley-davidson-the-worst-motorcycle-money-can.aspx
This was not a motorcycle article but an investment article using consumer reviews of their purchases and reliability of their motorcycles and then making a judgement call on whether "HOG" is a good investment. Back around 2004 I had a small amount of money to put in the market.
A friend's father was an investment broker and he recommend HOG. I disagreed as I thought that Harley could not sustain the numbers so I did not buy the stock and glad I did not. You might buy their bike buy would you invest your retirement in their stock?

[rocker59]

Rocker,
I am curious as to your comment. After all CR was not testing the bikes and then making a recommendation. They went to over 4000 bike owners and asked them their experience with the make and models and then posted the numbers as statistics.   So besides your bias against CR (BTW I do not read them except for the reliability survey when I bought a new car in 2011) what is your argument against the Motely Fool Article? 

Consumer reports samples a very small number of people who may or may not represent the majority of owners.  The small sample size and the fact that certain types of people do (and don't) respond to surveys (in general) makes the conclusions suspect, IMNSHO.

Did you buy a Toyota in 2011 ??  It's usually the Toyota owners who go on and on about CR.

I should have posted the URL http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/17/is-harley-davidson-the-worst-motorcycle-money-can.aspx
This was not a motorcycle article but an investment article using consumer reviews of their purchases and reliability of their motorcycles and then making a judgement call on whether "HOG" is a good investment. Back around 2004 I had a small amount of money to put in the market.
A friend's father was an investment broker and he recommend HOG. I disagreed as I thought that Harley could not sustain the numbers so I did not buy the stock and glad I did not. You might buy their bike buy would you invest your retirement in their stock?

Investors on the street don't give a damn about a big corporation's product.  They only care about stock performance today, and in the future.  Sad, but true.  They're buying the stock and may not know anything about the company's product.  Harley Davidson is a pretty strong American company with a very well known product and image.  That's all most people will care about.

in 1988 a smart guy who was getting ready to dump a lot of money into the market told me he'd never invest in HD stock  (it was trading at $9 and something).  Smart guy, huh?  Huge missed opportunity for him.   Basing a stock buying decision off a Consumer Reports customer satisfaction survey seems wonky to me.  But that's just me.  And I do understand that there's more than one way to skin a cat on Wall Street...