What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin

[redrider90]

<So if you are going to compare apples to apples then quote the Road King after you  "spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner".  If HD is so good at taking care of their customers then it's fairly obvious  setting up their bikes to purposefully require upgrades to increase power is a complete contradiction of that notion.  And the amazing thing is 75% of HD owners are loyal to a company that detunes their bike at the factory so you drop and extra $1k or more to get it running like it should have right out of the crate. They are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.>

Tuning on all brands is to meet Government regulation. I have spent a few bucks on my Stelvio to get it to run as I think it should.
Bob

Seems to me if you read Kev's post he said that that is government regulations are not at issue here.
I will quote him again and where does this say anything about the EPA. This is about HD detuning their bikes to sell more aftermarket parts. Even Kev admits its "despicable, but it works". I think he is talking about the HD detuning their machines to sell more stuff.
Read it and weep.
" But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works."

[Kev m]

The point was that Harley appears to be holding back on performance to some extent, so they can make some money on performance enhancing accessories.  I don't think anyone has presented a valid argument against that.  I also have no problem with a marketing strategy that helps keep a company profitable in a competitive market.  If one doesn't like it, one doesn't need to buy the product.

Oh, yeah, that's definitely true also.

I can't honestly blame them from an "it's a brilliant strategy" standpoint.

Actually I just bought a Jeep Wrangler and I'm seeing the parallels between the companies. I spent as much on this 4-door Wrangler as we did on my Wife's Grand Cherokee, but there are a good number of extra things SHE GOT for that price that I did not. And some of them are in the Jeep Wrangler Accessory catalog. Smart (bastids!).

[Kev m]

Seems to me if you read Kev's post he said that that is government regulations are not at issue here.
I will quote him again and where does this say anything about the EPA. This is about HD detuning their bikes to sell more aftermarket parts. Even Kev admits its "despicable, but it works". I think he is talking about the HD detuning their machines to sell more stuff.
Read it and weep.
" But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works."

Yeah, I admit that one.

There's 2 things at work here.

1. They already aren't tuning bikes for peak hp or to really compete with any of the Sport bikes/brands, or even today's standards like the CARCS or Hex-Head BMWs etc. They are purposely tuning for high, wide torque bands (at least as wide as their actual rpm range).

So that already takes some of the focus off the hp, then

2. They leave EVEN MORE of that on the table. Now maybe part of it is for extra reliability or more fuel efficiency or something like that. But just the fact that when they changed to EFI across the board in 07 they came out with a NEW LINE of "Screaming Eagle" mufflers that are "50-state street legal" and that promised to give, with NO OTHER modifications a power bump (up to around the 10% area), that does indeed suggest they left power on the table to sell mufflers. Now maybe it's a loophole and they ARE street legal, but would have brought something out of compliance for the manufacturer, I can't say for sure about that. But they continue to sell them almost a decade later.


The good news is that those mufflers are reportedly quieter than the previous generation of Screaming Eagle mufflers (which were already the quietest "accessory" mufflers out there). So a good number of people in the past decade have put "accessory" mufflers on their Harleys that aren't obnoxious. I'm thinking about trying a set as the 10 year/old lightly modified mufflers I'm running on our Sporty are going to need to be replaced soon.

[motrhead]

 Interesting discussion. I suspect many posters have not ridden a modern Harley. My girlfriend has a '14 Softtail , and it is fast, comfy and reliable. It feels a lot lighter than a new Cali, but it isn't.
 The V-rod is in another league altogether. It feels solid, goes like crazy, and feels very solid. I am seriously considering one.
 The original question said "Harley v twin engine", my Buell fits. My 99 X1 1200cc Buell is very similar to a Guzzi. Yes, the torque is down lower, and it runs out of steam at 6800, but there is something wonderful about that rumble, and the leap forward when you crack the throttle. I have a 77 XLCR Sporster, and that is the worst vibrating antique ever, but it feels like I am riding something from WW1, and the torque and light weight are quite wonderful. It is an experience. So is my LeMans in a different way. In my opinion, Harleys and Guzzis make good stable mates.

[Bonafide Bob]

Seems to me if you read Kev's post he said that that is government regulations are not at issue here.
I will quote him again and where does this say anything about the EPA. This is about HD detuning their bikes to sell more aftermarket parts. Even Kev admits its "despicable, but it works". I think he is talking about the HD detuning their machines to sell more stuff.
Read it and weep.
" But Harleys are purposely restricted to get you to spend more on a pipes and an air-cleaner. You can expect a 10-20% increase in power on a Harley just by adding 50-STATE STREET LEGAL accessory pipes, an air-cleaner and a reflash. At least half of that benefit can come from the pipes ALONE. Yeah, that's a little despicable, but it works."

No weeping for me, my main ride is a Stelvio and that runs much better since I did some aftermarket tuning, I consider it just part of making a motorcycle mine. I have most likely owned over fifty motorcycles and I can't remember a single one of them that I didn't change in someway to make it the way it suited me.
Bob

[oldbike54]

Interesting discussion. I suspect many posters have not ridden a modern Harley. My girlfriend has a '14 Softtail , and it is fast, comfy and reliable. It feels a lot lighter than a new Cali, but it isn't.
 The V-rod is in another league altogether. It feels solid, goes like crazy, and feels very solid. I am seriously considering one.
 The original question said "Harley v twin engine", my Buell fits. My 99 X1 1200cc Buell is very similar to a Guzzi. Yes, the torque is down lower, and it runs out of steam at 6800, but there is something wonderful about that rumble, and the leap forward when you crack the throttle. I have a 77 XLCR Sporster, and that is the worst vibrating antique ever, but it feels like I am riding something from WW1, and the torque and light weight are quite wonderful. It is an experience. So is my LeMans in a different way. In my opinion, Harleys and Guzzis make good stable mates.

 "Fast ?" 

  Dusty

[Kev m]

"Fast ?" 

  Dusty

Hey you - PIPE DOWN THERE...

Fast ENOUGH... fast ENOUGH...   

Interesting discussion. I suspect many posters have not ridden a modern Harley. .

SURE seems that way! 

In my opinion, Harleys and Guzzis make good stable mates.

 

[kingoffleece]

Of the hundreds of Harley riders I know 99% of them give no thought to most of what we've discussed here.  They love their bikes and a HUGE part of that is going to the Harley store and buying things for the bike.  Huge part!

For whatever they are or are not, up to this point the business plan has been very well thought out and developed over time.
2014 figures may very well be the start of a trend The Mo Co will wish to alter.

The ride I had on a 2015 Road Glide Special was really great-except for the 2" rear travel.

[redrider90]

No weeping for me, my main ride is a Stelvio and that runs much better since I did some aftermarket tuning, I consider it just part of making a motorcycle mine. I have most likely owned over fifty motorcycles and I can't remember a single one of them that I didn't change in someway to make it the way it suited me.
Bob

Hey I put on a set on SS Agostini's on my 90 Mille. I was told to Euro jet it and open the air box hence I burn the valves. The performance increase was dramatic but I lost a good 5+ mph on average. Now this was an EPA bike small valve and 30 mm carbs. It was a lean as they could make it to get it into the US. Frankly as much as I like the performance of the package I am sorry I did it as I am to much of an environmentalist to justify my hot rodding my toy and with the end product of burning more high octance gas. So I live with that but that is my personal decision and I am not bitching about anybody who mods there engine for performance. So I slap myself in the face before riding it and come back with a big  after riding it. Even then I am sure there are many on this forum who would love the 48-50 MPG I get on the Mille. 

[Rough Edge racing]

Hey I put on a set on SS Agostini's on my 90 Mille. I was told to Euro jet it and open the air box hence I burn the valves. The performance increase was dramatic but I lost a good 5+ mph on average. Now this was an EPA bike small valve and 30 mm carbs. It was a lean as they could make it to get it into the US. Frankly as much as I like the performance of the package I am sorry I did it as I am to much of an environmentalist to justify my hot rodding my toy and with the end product of burning more high octance gas. So I live with that but that is my personal decision and I am not bitching about anybody who mods there engine for performance. So I slap myself in the face before riding it and come back with a big  after riding it. Even then I am sure there are many on this forum who would love the 48-50 MPG I get on the Mille.

 So the engine was so lean it burned valves?  It must have been a noticeable flat spot of lack of throttle response from such a lean out... Did you notice anything else like pinging?........ In my many years messing with aircooled bikes ,I've never seen valves ruined by improper carburation, but have seen many pistons with holes in the crown caused by pre ignition as a result of lean air fuel mixture.

[Bonafide Bob]

My Stelvio gets in the 42/44 MPG range when riding like an old man, less when riding it spiritedly. ;-)  Interesting point,my near box stock BMW R100/7 has always been in upper 30's for mpg.
 

Bob
   

[redrider90]

So the engine was so lean it burned valves?  It must have been a noticeable flat spot of lack of throttle response from such a lean out... Did you notice anything else like pinging?........ In my many years messing with aircooled bikes ,I've never seen valves ruined by improper carburation, but have seen many pistons with holes in the crown caused by pre ignition as a result of lean air fuel mixture.

No I think I must had written the post to make it sound that way. The Agonstin exhaust opened the exhaust flow up considerably. When I ordered them from Agostini they told me that "You will burn the valves with this exhaust system if you leave the carbs and air box stock." The exhaust system required a richer burning engine.  They said do not do it unless you modify the carbs using Eurojet parts and also open the breathing up on the air filter. So it was not pinging and was not burning valves.
I had to make the full modifications as one package Agostini exhaust + eurojeting the carb+ high flow K&N air filter.
Most stock Mille's that I know including mine consistently got 55-58 MPG on the highway.

[motrhead]

"Fast ?" 

  Dusty

 Quick/fast compared to a lot of Guzzis. High 12s (okay, with her filter and V&H 2 into 1, probably mid 12s), and with all that torque it feels fast. Pretty close to the Californa 1400. Yes my Stelvio is quicker, but a 2 valve Guzzi rider is going to have a rough time keeping up to my girlfriend until the road gets really twisty, and she drags the floorboards all the time...lol  When she whacks the throttle open, I have to drop a gear on the Stelvio to stay with her...though I can blow by if I hold it open... 
 The V-Rod runs low 11s (about the same as my Buell X1)...103rwhp or so (122 crank). I think the styling scares people off, but I think it is a helluva nice bike.

[Kev m]

How are you getting those predictions?

Mid 12's seems pretty optimistic. Then again the Stelvio should be low 12's to HIGH 11's.

[oldbike54]

How are you getting those predictions?

Mid 12's seems pretty optimistic. Then again the Stelvio should be low 12's to HIGH 11's.

 1000 foot drag strip 

  Dusty

[motrhead]

How are you getting those predictions?

Mid 12's seems pretty optimistic. Then again the Stelvio should be low 12's to HIGH 11's.

No. Those are numbers real people are getting ...on various Harley Forums.(I hang out everywhere...lol. ) I have ridden a couple different Softtails, even did some touring on one, so I know how quick they are.  You should ride one. The 103 was quick, and now they are 110s with 109 ft.lbs torque.

[Kev m]

No. Those are numbers real people are getting ...on various Harley Forums. I have ridden a couple different Softtails, even did some touring on one, so I know how quick they are. (I hang out everywhere...lol. ) You should ride one. The 103 was quick, and now they are 110s with 109 ft.lbs torque.

Well I have ridden some, but yes, not the 103" or 110" motors.

Still the 96" was seeing mid 13's.

<shrugs>

[LowRyter]

Quick/fast compared to a lot of Guzzis. High 12s (okay, with her filter and V&H 2 into 1, probably mid 12s), and with all that torque it feels fast. Pretty close to the Californa 1400. Yes my Stelvio is quicker, but a 2 valve Guzzi rider is going to have a rough time keeping up to my girlfriend until the road gets really twisty, and she drags the floorboards all the time...lol  When she whacks the throttle open, I have to drop a gear on the Stelvio to stay with her...though I can blow by if I hold it open... 
 The V-Rod runs low 11s (about the same as my Buell X1)...103rwhp or so (122 crank). I think the styling scares people off, but I think it is a helluva nice bike.

the VRod will out run any stock Guzzi.

[motrhead]

Well I have ridden some, but yes, not the 103" or 110" motors.

Still the 96" was seeing mid 13's.

<shrugs>

 It was a big jump from 96 to 103 (somewhere around 114cc, and a higher compression ratio).

[Cool Runnings]

the VRod will out run any stock Guzzi.

If Harley had only made the VRod into a proper bagger. Not enough low end grunt. Not impressed...

[Cool Runnings]

It was a big jump from 96 to 103 (somewhere around 114cc, and a higher compression ratio).

Harley won't list HP ratings. They are still slow.......

[Kev m]

Harley won't list HP ratings. They are still slow.......

Check the Screaming Eagle Parts Catalogs. You can usually find the stock ratings there to be compared with the SE Stage I or II kit ratings.

I'll post what I've found tomorrow if I get some time at my desk. But yeah, I don't recall seeing a big jump between any one set of BT motors.

[Cool Runnings]

Check the Screaming Eagle Parts Catalogs. You can usually find the stock ratings there to be compared with the SE Stage I or II kit ratings.

I'll post what I've found tomorrow if I get some time at my desk. But yeah, I don't recall seeing a big jump between any one set of BT motors.

They are still slow.......... 

Party like it's 1999. 

[Cool Runnings]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfvqrW-yMrQ 

[Kev m]

They are still slow.......... 

Party like it's 1999. 

Meh, apples and pomegranates.

Besides there's always someone faster.

About 99.9% of the owners and riders of these kind of bikes (Harleys and cruisers) don't care, and most of riders of other kinds are probably fooling themselves anyway.

There's only ever one top dog at a time, and all the rest are making the same compromise, just to a different degree.

[Sheepdog]

Meh, apples and pomegranates.

Besides there's always someone faster.

About 99.9% of the owners and riders of these kind of bikes (Harleys and cruisers) don't care, and most of riders of other kinds are probably fooling themselves anyway.

There's only ever one top dog at a time, and all the rest are making the same compromise, just to a different degree.

Truth...

[Kev m]

Approximate Stock RWHP ratings, largely taken from MCN and Harley Screaming Eagle Catalog Dyno charts.

I realize this isn't gospel, and it doesn't tell the whole story* (more on that in a minute), but it's a good indicator of general/relative power between the various EVO and TC motors:

Approx stock rwhp (mostly from MCN)            
            
883 EVO (Rubbermount Carb) - 40-41 hp            
883 EVO (Rubbermount EFI) - 48-50 hp            
1200 EVO (Solidmount ) - 52-56 hp            
1200 EVO (Rubbermount) - 57-60 hp            
1340 EVO BT - 48-52 hp            
TC88 - 60-63 hp            
TC96 - 66-68 hp            
TC103B - 71 hp
TC103 - 75-78 hp

Interesting, I only had the TC103B motor in my data (but MotrHead, isn't THAT the motor in your girlfriend's 2014 FXST?).

But yeah, there is a larger difference between the TC96 and the TC103 than I thought and *the HP figures don't tell the whole story as it looks like there is at LEAST as big an increase in torque.

I'll need to add the TC110 data as well.

[Rough Edge racing]

 All this talk about slow Harleys....other than the 883 Sporty and perhaps the most optioned BT baggers, I believe all the rest made recently turn low to mid 13's in the 1/4 mile, some are faster of course.
 What does this mean to me? One of my old 650 Brit bikes is a bit slower and all the performance, with in reason, can be used on back roads. The 85 Cali 2 cafe bike might turn a low 13  1/4 mile and not all the performance can be used on secondary roads. My 97 Buell is faster, high to mid 12's and just some of the performance can be used. Riding my friend's newer 1050 Speed triple, high 10's in the 1/4 mile , very little performance can be use on the roads here. It's like a guy bragging about his 650 HP Vette...you can only use the power for a few seconds.
  And we have to remember not all riders need to corner like a GP bike...
 Maybe for a rider out west in Utah there's more opportunity to use the performance....
 I look at Harley BT riders like guys driving around in full sized 4x4 Diesel PU trucks that never drive in deep snow or mud or carry weight...Why do they need such a vehicle? Because they like it.....

[Bonafide Bob]

<<<It's like a guy bragging about his 650 HP Vette...you can only use the power for a few seconds.>>

 My neighbor recently bought a CO6 and took me for a ride in it, all I can say is those few seconds that the power can be used are certainly a rush.;-)

[Lcarlson]

 <<Maybe for a rider out west in Utah there's more opportunity to use the performance....
 I look at Harley BT riders like guys driving around in full sized 4x4 Diesel PU trucks that never drive in deep snow or mud or carry weight...Why do they need such a vehicle? Because they like it.....>>

Actually, there is a reason that H-D owns the middle of the country and the mountain west. The Big Twins are well suited for riding the big, open roads found in these parts. They are generally comfortable and their power is of the torquey variety, yielding a nice relaxed cadence that is good for covering the open spaces. For the most part, rapid acceleration and razor sharp cornering are secondary considerations. Not for everybody,of course, but fine for many. Full disclosure: I spent a week on a new rented Road King touring south/central Utah last June.