Maybe MG will drop the Norge or Stelvio? ( title change)

[keener]

Actually it does matter that the 1200 can out run the 1400 shows that it has the stones to run with a bike that many think a revelation.
I know of a Griso 1200 that can play hard against an R9T  especially when tuned properly and away from what Guzzi delivers.
the class of bikes that the Griso 1200 competes with arent above and beyond it and in many cases , as a all rounder the Griso out handles it competition .
Guzzi has never been a class leader in the HP wars , but as a all round motorcycle they excel..
Mid range roll on on the 1200 is awesome against many bikes , your Norge is a great example , the Griso is a better one with its gearing ..
Guzzi is and has always been its own worse enemy as far as marketing goes , hopefully by developing the 8v 1200 further they can show what is truly possible to do .
as for resale well...that makes for great deals on good used Guzzis for me and you..2013 Griso for $8200 is a sweet deal for anyone .
   

[AH Fan]

Own both 1400 and 1200 motors............. worlds apart in character and performance in my opinion.
Hope they are both around for many years to come...........

Ciao

[omega1987]

Who really can excited about the V9 , its just a sleeved up old heron head design very similar to the V7 ..whoopee both are anemic and no comp against the offerings from the competition ..they are just "pretty" cop outs and sold to please the bank..

I disagree, having rode both the outgoing Bonneville and W800 the v7 mill is on a par with its main rivals performance wise and the guzzi character plus shaft drive give it an advantage over the competition.

The reason I ended up with a Guzzi was simply because I was looking for a very reliable, fuel efficient and good handling motorcycle for touring/commuting. I chose my 750 over the Honda Dullville and NC750 after reading numerous accounts of high mileage Guzzis. Personally I think Guzzi just needs to make people aware that their bikes are as reliable if not more so than anything with a Japanese badge.

[Piglet]

It looks like the 1200 CARC line may be on its way out?  Too bad.  I'd still probably buy a 2012-14 Griso.  I'm crazy about those bikes, but I just bought a '07 Breva V1100 last summer.  After removing the Power Commander and getting a re-mapping, it's finally fuelling satisfactorily if not perfectly.  Stock, the 2-valve bike was devoid of the torque they're renowned for, between 3-4000 RPM.  So many other bikes "fuel" perfectly right out of the crate.  Many new Guzzis do not. There's usually a whole lot of expense to put the pipe on, and remap etc.  Not so for many other makes that don't come stock with a hole in the power band...

[Kev m]

Who really can excited about the V9 , its just a sleeved up old heron head design very similar to the V7 .

No, it's a Hemi head.

[bpreynolds]

I REALLY enjoyed the 8V motor in my former '11 Stelvio but it was a hottie, literally.  Water cooling, the likely resulting power boost, and the customary gadgetry (abs, traction control, cruise) and I'm telling you the bikes could compete on par at least with the Bavarian offerings.  The new water cooled Beemers that everyone generally is raving about (opinions, opinions) only make about 125 HP and they're hardly svelt - RS clocks in at what, like 530 or 540 dry I think. 

I also just don't buy the argument that Guzzi is becoming the cruiser wing of Piaggio.  Even Jap companies don't revamp their entire line in one year; Guzzi needs time.  It will happen I think.  Either the 1200 will get some version of water cooling or the 1400 will be modified into different genres of bikes. 

[Kev m]

I REALLY enjoyed the 8V motor in my former '11 Stelvio but it was a hottie, literally.  Water cooling, the likely resulting power boost, and the customary gadgetry (abs, traction control, cruise) and I'm telling you the bikes could compete on par at least with the Bavarian offerings.  The new water cooled Beemers that everyone generally is raving about (opinions, opinions) only make about 125 HP and they're hardly svelt - RS clocks in at what, like 530 or 540 dry I think. 

I think you're optimistic.

The RS supposedly clocks in a 520, the R only at about 505ish. But those are figures of a bike that has already gained weight with water cooling, the air/oil-cooled Nine-T is only 489.

So all things being equal you'd expect the Guzzis to gain 10-20# with water-cooling and they'd still have to increase hp at least 25% to remain competitive.

And water-cooling doesn't automatically equal a comfortable bike (no heat transmitted to the rider).

I also just don't buy the argument that Guzzi is becoming the cruiser wing of Piaggio.  Even Jap companies don't revamp their entire line in one year; Guzzi needs time.  It will happen I think.  Either the 1200 will get some version of water cooling or the 1400 will be modified into different genres of bikes.

I don't know if this is happening or not, but I can certainly see why it would make sense if you're Piaggio.

Much of the world look at Motorcycles as one of two things - Sport bikes and Cruisers. You could argue there are Sport bikes, Cruisers, Scooters, and maybe Dirt Bikes.

But you see where I'm going. They've GOT Sport Bikes covered by Aprilia, they've GOT Scooters covered, that leaves Cruisers for Guzzi.

And IF this is indeed happening, it hasn't been happening in just one year. The Cali has been out a couple of years now, the same with the V7...In that amount of time they've updated/revamped the CARC bikes HOW? Colors and ABS?

They've been putting all their effort in the V7, V9, Cali 1400 (now available in how many variants?).

And I can't think the valve train difficulties are helping the 8V motors either. That's a black eye that won't easily go away even if we all know that it is probably handled now. The rest of the world knows how to build a motor with hydraulic lifters, but once they got a black eye with it they abandoned the idea.

I don't have a dog in the hunt because the V7, V9, and Cali 1400 speak to me more than the rest of the line anyway, but I can understand those who see the writing on the wall as equally as I can those who are bummed at the idea.

[bad Chad]

Your notions may turn out accurate. That being said, its often much harder to read the writing on the wall than one expects,  even more so when its in Italian!

[Kev m]

Your notions may turn out accurate. That being said, its often much harder to read the writing on the wall than one expects,  even more so when its in Italian!

Agreed. It's definitely speculation at this point.

Though I do put something in the report we've gotten that the current CARC models cannot make an upcoming EU emissions regulation because of the source (Dogwalker I believe right?).

[vstevens]

The reason I ended up with a Guzzi was simply because I was looking for a very reliable, fuel efficient and good handling motorcycle for touring/commuting. I chose my 750 over the Honda Dullville and NC750 after reading numerous accounts of high mileage Guzzis. Personally I think Guzzi just needs to make people aware that their bikes are as reliable if not more so than anything with a Japanese badge.

Me too.  After digging into the wild guzzi forum and reading about 100+k miles on a motorcycle... I knew that Moto Guzzi bikes aren't typically purchased as a passing fancy, not just a fad one goes through.  MG owners and riders seem to hold on to the bikes, learn their bikes foibles and idiosyncracies, and nearly have a relationship with them.  Often Long term. 

MG and Piaggio might do better if they advertised the longevity and durability of their motorcycles.  I'm sure other brands (particularly BMW) are very durable... but I'd be curios to see MG numbers in the way that Ford and Chevy advertise the durability of their trucks.

Unfortunately, the 1200 motor with the flat vs roller tappet issue might skuw (skew, skue?) the statistics.  And with so few bikes produced, small numbers of bikes can really affect statistics.

The styling of the V9 is growing on me but I prefer the V7.  The Cali 1400 bikes are cool... but heavy and wide...  Likely very comfy and great for two up riding.  The Griso, Stelvio, and Norge all 3 inspire a viscerality in me, even though I've only seen and sat on them, never ridden them. 

An advert with yet another good looking actor, or sexy Italian boy or girl posing on a motorbike isn't going to make me go out and buy another one...

That being said, I understand that Italian motorbikes are also selling 'beauty', and everyone appreciates beauty... life is too short not to.  And the power of association ... the bike and the actor... can be powerful.  Guess I'm just getting too old and ugly for that kind of marketing to work on me.   

[canuguzzi]

If it becomes a PITA to buy something, only those that are fans already will go through the trouble to buy.

The typical motorcycle buyer can't see in person a Norge, Griso or Stelvio unless they travel. When they get there they also see the same bikes that are found locally and that isn't lost in buyers. People do think about service and if they make a trip just to see one they probably realize it is a trip for service.

If product isn't available customers don't buy. If customers don't buy sales go down.

At the end of the line is an idiot asking why sales aren't better. The idiot next to them says discount the bikes to move them, never challenging the other idiot. Then the two idiots get together and decide to put some actor in a bike and send them on a trip, as if anyone buying a motorcycle really cares.

[Dilliw]

If it becomes a PITA to buy something, only those that are fans already will go through the trouble to buy.

The typical motorcycle buyer can't see in person a Norge, Griso or Stelvio unless they travel. When they get there they also see the same bikes that are found locally and that isn't lost in buyers. People do think about service and if they make a trip just to see one they probably realize it is a trip for service.

If product isn't available customers don't buy. If customers don't buy sales go down.

At the end of the line is an idiot asking why sales aren't better. The idiot next to them says discount the bikes to move them, never challenging the other idiot. Then the two idiots get together and decide to put some actor in a bike and send them on a trip, as if anyone buying a motorcycle really cares.

We begin by coveting what we see every day. Don't you feel eyes moving over your body, Clarice? And don't your eyes seek out the things you want?

-Hannibal Lecter

[canuguzzi]

I watched as Moto Guzzi toured the country with the MGX21 and Audace to conduct a focus group study. It was anything but prospective customer friendly.

For the same money spent, MG could send a team around the country with a Griso, Norge, Stelvio and V7 and conduct a get to know Moto Guzzi test ride affair. They could stop at places even where no MG dealers were there, just to promote the brand and get some attention.

Before that, they could get in touch with existing customers of current models and offer them some incentive to show upnas Ambassadors if a sort. Incentives hell, many would do it for nothing. But to help, given then a special logo hat or jacket or even high quality key fobs that no one else would have.

Put an ad in the major bike mags touting the event, that would generate huge collateral reviews if the bikes and free add on exposure.

This probably wouldn't cost more than the know nothing photographer they paid to go on the MGX21 thingy and the other guy that seemed more intent on preventing anyone from looking at the bikes than anything else.

Jump start and reboot the MG brand band appeal to today's motorcycle buyer. Pay some homage to the old but keep that where it belongs, in the past. Get the motorcycle buying customers to see the new Moto Guzzi.

Look what GM is doing with Buick. Well, this isn't farmer johns old Moto Guzzi, this is something new and special. Moto Guzzi is tied to the old like an overloaded boat heaving anchor, time to let it go.

Right now is the time for MG to really move the needle. If that means dumping the 1200 engine and concentrating on the two other engines, so be it but do more than let the 1200 languish as it has.

[keener]

Right now is the time for MG to really move the needle. If that means dumping the 1200 engine and concentrating on the two other engines, so be it but do more than let the 1200 languish as it has.

you are correct...do more with the 1200 its the most advanced engine Guzzi has available currently.......... .
The other two are old school even more so than the 2 valve 1100 Breva /early Griso Carc models , and they are the best of the old design push rod engines , longest lived least amount of problems and adequate power, but they too are long in the tooth and discontinued .
that being said the 1200 especially from 2013 on with the rollersized heads are a treat when tuned properly and with good maps they are what Guzzi should be exploring , if you haven't yet taken the time to explore the torque and HP spec on the 1200  you should...taken further yet it could be awesome.
You have a 1200 8v Norge , from what you are on about you must be very disappointed , if the bike has issues with midrange  power or running in general there are available great maps , that will improve the performance greatly.
Try "Griso Ghetto" they are a great group dedicated to performance and for the most part the 1200 8v  engine.
   

[MotoG5]

Could be for one reason or another they will. I own one and love it and will ride it until it either blows up, I cant get parts to keep it running, finally decide to get something else or I die. I don't care what it's resale value is. When or if I am done with it the resale will be nothing anyway. Every Guzzi I have owned was discontinued by the time I sold it over the last fifty years anyway. Oh yea and all of them were not only purchased but are still on the road. I guess in the end if the 8V goes the way of the loop frames there will be a spot for it in some museum some where if not at the factory.

 

[ohiorider]

After reading this thread, it makes me wonder ..... does Piaggio read these threads?  I cannot believe they read anything we post on this forum.  Of course, there's a lot of BS posted here.  There's also a lot of heartfelt thoughts about the brand, and it's sad to think no one reads our posts and considers them when they (Piaggio) make decisions on where to take the brand.

Of course, to be cynical, what do we know?  We simply buy Guzzis and ride the hell out of them. 

[keener]

After reading this thread, it makes me wonder ..... does Piaggio read these threads?  I cannot believe they read anything we post on this forum.  Of course, there's a lot of BS posted here.  There's also a lot of heartfelt thoughts about the brand, and it's sad to think no one reads our posts and considers them when they (Piaggio) make decisions on where to take the brand.

Of course, to be cynical, what do we know?  We simply buy Guzzis and ride the hell out of them.

unfortunately .... Piaggio does not give a rats ass

[rboe]

"Moto Guzzi is tied to the old like an overloaded boat heaving anchor, time to let it go. "

This tradition is Guzzi's greatest strength and its' greatest weakness. They could embrace it and come out with a single and a V8.

Or they can go the route BMW went; in some ways that has worked for them, it others, not so much.

[canuguzzi]

you are correct...do more with the 1200 its the most advanced engine Guzzi has available currently.......... .
The other two are old school even more so than the 2 valve 1100 Breva /early Griso Carc models , and they are the best of the old design push rod engines , longest lived least amount of problems and adequate power, but they too are long in the tooth and discontinued .
that being said the 1200 especially from 2013 on with the rollersized heads are a treat when tuned properly and with good maps they are what Guzzi should be exploring , if you haven't yet taken the time to explore the torque and HP spec on the 1200  you should...taken further yet it could be awesome.
You have a 1200 8v Norge , from what you are on about you must be very disappointed , if the bike has issues with midrange  power or running in general there are available great maps , that will improve the performance greatly.
Try "Griso Ghetto" they are a great group dedicated to performance and for the most part the 1200 8v  engine.
 

I have an updated map, great tune and my Norge runs great. The issues it has aren't related to engine, tranny or anything like that.

I said "languish" not meaning an engine perspective but rather over all design and update perspective. The engine itself needs nothing, the body it is wrapped in could use a serious diet and the upgrades would just be keeping a half step behind the market.

MG could leave the engine just as it. They could clean up the factory map but we already have great alternatives.

All the 1200 engines bikes are good, doesn't mean they couldn't be a lot better. Leave the engine alone, just pay attention to the rest of it.

MG doesn't need to abandon its heritage or tradition, just stop living in it because people buying new bikes want new bikes, not old bikes. The new Challengers, Mustangs and Camaros are good examples of ties to tradition and heritage without being tied to the past so strongly that moving forward is lost.

If the Norge isn't seriously updated they will sell less this year than last. Same for the Stelvio. 2013-2016 is quite a while to go without more than a color change. Sure, the FJR ST1300 and some other are in the same boat except they also started out with more updated equipment in the first place.

Look at it this way, I have a 2013 Norge and would buy a new bike. In have no issues preventing me from buying a new bike.

What am I going to do, buy a 2016 Norge that is the same thing except for some decals on the tank? There is no real future selling bikes to people and then not selling them another new one in a few years. Everyone else figured it out.

[PJPR01]

What am I going to do, buy a 2016 Norge that is the same thing except for some decals on the tank? There is no real future selling bikes to people and then not selling them another new one in a few years. Everyone else figured it out.

Who says you need to buy a bike every few years?  Some people like the bike they bought and are happy to ride it for 5-10 years or much longer, same with cars...why the overwhelming need to buy a new one every few years? 

[canuguzzi]

Who says you need to buy a bike every few years?  Some people like the bike they bought and are happy to ride it for 5-10 years or much longer, same with cars...why the overwhelming need to buy a new one every few years?

Overwhelming need? Where did that come from?

Why shouldn't anyone be free to buy one or as many motorcycles as they like, now there is some needs test?

You missed the point. If MG updated the Norge and Stelvio there would be repeat customers who might buy another because of the updates. Without the updates there is no incentive.

I have more than one car too. I might buy another this year. So what?

[PJPR01]

Seriously?  Re=read your own post Pilot...just responding to the item I left in quotes...  

[canuguzzi]

Seriously?  Re=read your own post Pilot...just responding to the item I left in quotes...

It is called repeat customers, like those who buy an new truck or car that got updated from their model.

If MG updated the Norge or Stelvio, you might get repeat customers or do you think they are setting sales records by making the same bike year after year?

You don't think that if MG updated the Norge and Stelvio that there wouldnt be current owners who would upgrade?

[PJPR01]

They might, but not always...sometimes a few model changes take place before a person upgrades.

Happens the same with car buying...even if one is capable and has the resources to buy a new one, there's no pressing need to do so...

Works the same for Motorcycles as it does for cars...and without doing any research or having and hard statistical evidence to support it, I would venture to say that people are keeping their cars and motorcycles longer today than a decade ago...just a hunch...could be wrong.

[canuguzzi]

If MG updated the Norge to include traction control, selectable maps, an adjustable seat, adjustable bars, optional electronic adjustable suspension ( or just better), more adjustment on the windscreen, city bag option, I think plenty of current Norge owners would buy in.

Then instead of discounting them 6 thousand dollars, sell closer to MSRP and also create more demand.

Plenty of people buy a new bike every few years.

[PJPR01]

Ok then...maybe the data bears it out, but maybe it doesn't.  Dig up some stats and let's see the evidence.

Not all changes are necessarily improvements...we see this in cars all the time...not everyone who is an existing owner wants the newer stuff right away...maybe eventually, but not right away, so the brands have to appeal to new owners not only to existing owners.

The concept of a motorcycle being obsolete after 5 years doesn't make sense in its own right, it might no longer be interesting for the owner who might want to change to another brand or a bigger or smaller bike, but it doesn't always have to be a new bike, could be a used one.

I think just the premise of new features automatically driving repeat buying needs to be proven, it maybe more a case of a bike/car wearing out that triggers the purchase, not just the introduction of the new features.

Did Guzzi sales spike when the 8V engine was introduced?  Maybe one data point to look at and see if it happened.

[Kev m]

I THINK what NP is trying to say (and if he is I would agree) is that vehicle manufactures NEED to constantly improve the product in order to drive a perception of NEED or at least WANT for new models.

That in order to protect and grow their market share that they must change things and offer something "more" whether it is to tempt an older customer to return for another or to tempt a new customer away from the competition.

But it is obviously the model that most vehicle manufacturers follow so there must be something behind it.

Certainly Harley seems to thrive on it.

[Dean Rose]

If MG updated the Norge to include traction control, selectable maps, an adjustable seat, adjustable bars, optional electronic adjustable suspension ( or just better), more adjustment on the windscreen, city bag option, I think plenty of current Norge owners would buy in.

Then instead of discounting them 6 thousand dollars, sell closer to MSRP and also create more demand.

Plenty of people buy a new bike every few years.

Dream on, you realize that they still only make a fraction of what the other manufactures do.
I still believe that they were bought for their history not for their value.

Just glad to have the ones I do.


Dean

[JeffOlson]

Is there anything inherently wrong with the current 1151 cc engine, now that it has been "rollerized"? From my limited experience, there does not appear to be. It is sufficiently powerful, tractable, and fuel-efficient. It likes to rev, but it doesn't need high revs to launch the bike forward.

If Moto Guzzi has already paid for its development and tooling, why stop using it? It fills a nice hole in the current lineup: 744 cc, 853 cc, 1151 cc, and 1380 cc.

[canuguzzi]

Nothing wrong with the engine Jeff. The bikes it goes into could use some serious updating. No matter how good the engine is, if the bikes it gets put into aren't selling really well, eventually it becomes a drain on resources.

Three bikes use that engine, none of them are big sellers.

Maybe the better question would have been, if the Griso goes away that leaves two bikes. If the Norge doesn't get a decent update, it will sell less and less, they will only sell them so low before they chuck the line. What that number is we don't know but the line is probably close.

I changed the title to reflect a better framed question since it is really more model rather than engine centric.

Then what? Somehow I don't see MG keeping a one bike line alive just to save tooling costs.

MG has to be looking at numbers real careful when in order to clear out Norge's they have to discount them over $6000.